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Free Hand - a 1* album

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Poll Question: Is Free Hand a 1* album?
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62 [79.49%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tubes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 00:47
@Atavachron, I said any which WAY, not however. There's a difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 00:50
What's the difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 00:53
^ I think he meant he can use a quote option however he likes; the problem is the tone and attitude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tubes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 00:54
@Dayvenkirq The difference is the MEANS. I can address him by preceding his username with, "@" or I can quote him as he suggested. I can even PM him. This is opposed to the MANNER in which I address him. I won't give myself full liberty to call him whatever name I think most insulting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:19
I don't care how many  one star reviews he writes. I still don't respect his opinion. Why should one anyway?

Why do we have to respect an opinion?

IF I said that I agreed the German's handling of the  "Jewish problem" during WW2 was understandable and I defended it, would you  respect my opinion? Well of course  not. Is that not an extreme example you ask? Yes, it is, but where is  the line? Where is the line between respecting someone's opinion  and  not?

Well...maybe a subject for another thread.
I'm not implying Tubes is a Nazi btw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:20
On  a side note..can we ban this guy? Not for his wonderful pseudo intellectual reviews of course, but for being an ass.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:27
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

@Dayvenkirq The difference is the MEANS. I can address him by preceding his username with, "@" or I can quote him as he suggested. I can even PM him. This is opposed to the MANNER in which I address him. I won't give myself full liberty to call him whatever name I think most insulting. 
But that's a lie isn't it. You asked if I was stupid then called me a retard, and to prove that I quote: 
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

@Dean Are you stupid? I didn't buy Free Hand - I listened to it on Youtube, tard. 
 
This is 3 days after you reported Dennis for implying you had the stupid gene. Dennis was making a joke at your expense and got a scolding from Bob for it - you, however, have been directly insulting to me and to others. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:27
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

@octopus-4, Just to point something out here: Those are YOUR words describing my opinion, which for all intents and purposes IS FACT, as "UNIQUE WISDOM". Thank you much for the compliment!

With which of MY WORDS you think I have described "YOUR OPINION"? 
I have quoted and commented one of YOUR sentences. 

My opinions about this thread are:

1) You have written proper reviews which shouldn't be deleted for any reason.
2) You are not playing rating manipulation. That's something that is done via fake accounts, usually.
3) We have the right to disagree with your opinions
4) you haven't understood (yet, hopefullly) the spirit of the site
5) Reviews based on Youtube can suffer because of the poor quality. You should listen to more hifi sources.
6) Use of words like "stupid" and "tard" is not appropriate. 


I don't think I have anything else to add.


Edited by octopus-4 - April 10 2013 at 01:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:32
I thought I was bad but Tubes has actually called someone the s word Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:38
I actually don't mind someone from reviewing from Youtube but I know many others disagree with this. In  fact..are Youtube reviews even allowed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:49
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I actually don't mind someone from reviewing from Youtube but I know many others disagree with this. In  fact..are Youtube reviews even allowed?
There is no specific rule against reviewing off Youtoob, of course the Review Guidelines were written before Youtoob was a source of whole album streams (and before the widespread availability of illegal downloads too).
 
We do have a guideline that would suggest such reviews could be inadequate:
Quote [6]We suggest you listen to an album several times before writing a review. It can take a number of listens to Prog albums in particular to begin to appreciate the music.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote npjnpj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 02:13
After reading the 1st review I was prepared to accept this as an honest opinion. The 2nd review is showing a pattern: I think we are dealing with an extremely eloquent troll who is using his command of words and phrasing to camouflage that. The evolved troll, perhaps?

It shows by the way this thread has been moving towards becoming an on line bar brawl. The cleverly disguised provocations by Tubes are still a little too evident.

Oh, and I used to like GG, one of my favourite bands, but I find them sounding very dated nowadays (musically, not technically or production-wise) as opposed to the other top representative bands/artists here, although I still rate both albums somewhere between 3 and 4 stars. A decade or two ago that would have been 5 stars each.

Or perhaps Dean is Tubes and he's having us on Smile


Edited by npjnpj - April 10 2013 at 02:17
I like the music of any era, regardless of when it was made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BarryGlibb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 03:26
Hi Guys....I've been having a bit of a snooze down here in Oz......any love happening in this thread (!).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 03:38
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

1) You have written proper reviews which shouldn't be deleted for any reason.
Deleting reviews is rare but not unknown, in the main we delete them for their content when the reviewer is flagrantly breaking Review Guidelines and as in all things this is a judgement-call. It would be unusual to delete a review for intent as that is harder to determine, but when the review states that the purpose is to lower the average rating of what is in their subjective opinion an over-rated album then intention is far easier to determine. Especially so when the reviewer gleefully announces that he has achieved his goal.
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

2) You are not playing rating manipulation. That's something that is done via fake accounts, usually.
Usually, yes, but writing a review (however well written... or not) for the purpose of lowering (or raising) the average rating is still rating manipulation, it is the same intent (and effect) as creating ten fake accounts. I have deleted thousands of bogus ratings and hundreds of fake accounts and I have no compunction against deleting a review that shows evidence of intent to manipulate the average rating.
Quote Usually I will refrain from reviewing albums the average ratings for which I feel to be accurate estimates of the value I would assign to them. My rating could only raise or lower a general appraisal which I would opine to be fair, anyway. So I will primarily contribute to the critical analyses of albums that seem to be over- or under-rated. Gentle Giant's Octopus would be one of such over-rated albums.
.
.
.
And finally, after having reviewed my? er? review, I can see that I've pretty damn well knocked Octopus down for the count ? the count to eight. *Winks.
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

I saw that I lowered the average rating by .02 of a star!
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:10
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

@Dean, and for the umpteenth time: I do not abuse rating manipulation. My own listening experience is that Octopus is a crap album. Okay? Go to Amazon; there are at least a handful of reviews there from GENTLE GIANT FANS, discouraging consumers from purchasing Octopus because IT SUCKS.
...


Let's see... Amazon... Octopus (2011 edition) ...

There are 68 reviews. Of those:

5 star - 47 [69%]
4 star - 14 [21%]
3 star - 3 [4%]
2 star - 2 [3%]
1 star - 2 [3%]

[please excuse the liberty of adding percentages to your numbers]
Amazon average 4.500
PA (All - 981 ratings - 4.248 average)
5 star - 548 [56%]
4 star - 315 [32%]
3 star - 90 [9%]
2 star - 21 [2%]
1 star - 7 [1%]
PA (Reviews only - 120 reviews - 4.158 average)
5 star - 54 [45%]
4 star - 41 [34%]
3 star - 19 [16%]
2 star - 5 [4%]
1 star - 1 [1%]

It does seem that numerically at least we do not regard Octopus as highly as the reviewers on Amazon, especially since, as you say, several of their lower scores are for the quality of the mastering, not for the music itself.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:17
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

@Dean,
...
 
I'll also have you know that I'll address you any which way I want, "full quoting capability" or not. 
 
 
Please observe that:
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

... as it would be advantageous if you could learn how to quote - this is not twitter or youtoob, it's a forum with full quoting capability and practically unlimited post length
Was a piece of (friendly) advice, I'll not dictate the means in which you reply, merely point out that it would be advantageous for all if you would quote the posts you are referring to rather than just "at-ing" person - it just makes reading the posts and following the discussion considerably easier for everyone reading the thread. On Twitter and Youtoob you cannot do this because of the lack of quoting capability and the limited message length - here we are not hampered by those restrictions.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

1) You have written proper reviews which shouldn't be deleted for any reason.
Deleting reviews is rare but not unknown, in the main we delete them for their content when the reviewer is flagrantly breaking Review Guidelines and as in all things this is a judgement-call. It would be unusual to delete a review for intent as that is harder to determine, but when the review states that the purpose is to lower the average rating of what is in their subjective opinion an over-rated album then intention is far easier to determine. Especially so when the reviewer gleefully announces that he has achieved his goal.
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

2) You are not playing rating manipulation. That's something that is done via fake accounts, usually.
Usually, yes, but writing a review (however well written... or not) for the purpose of lowering (or raising) the average rating is still rating manipulation, it is the same intent (and effect) as creating ten fake accounts. I have deleted thousands of bogus ratings and hundreds of fake accounts and I have no compunction against deleting a review that shows evidence of intent to manipulate the average rating.
Quote Usually I will refrain from reviewing albums the average ratings for which I feel to be accurate estimates of the value I would assign to them. My rating could only raise or lower a general appraisal which I would opine to be fair, anyway. So I will primarily contribute to the critical analyses of albums that seem to be over- or under-rated. Gentle Giant's Octopus would be one of such over-rated albums.
.
.
.
And finally, after having reviewed my? er? review, I can see that I've pretty damn well knocked Octopus down for the count ? the count to eight. *Winks.
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

I saw that I lowered the average rating by .02 of a star!
 
 

My bloody browser crashed when I was about to click on "Post"....

Well, I think that we are on the same line about "deleting". I have interpreted the second quoted sentence as "even with my one star the rating has decreased of ONLY 0.02". 

About youtube, I remember a polemic some months ago about the 1.star review written by AtomicCrimsonRush of a Japanese noisy Progressive electronic artist whose name I don't remember. ACR wrote it basing on youtube and with his agreement those reviews were deleted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:00
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

My bloody browser crashed when I was about to click on "Post"....
I'm getting that too - I Ctrl-A/Ctrl-C before posting now-a-days so I can Ctrl-V the post back if it bombs.
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


Well, I think that we are on the same line about "deleting". I have interpreted the second quoted sentence as "even with my one star the rating has decreased of ONLY 0.02". 
It knocked it down two spots on the all-time top 100  - when there is ony 0.05 seperating #50 from #100 on the chart small changes mean a lot, especially when you have a x10 weighting. (Doubly so when you have a x20 weighting).
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


About youtube, I remember a polemic some months ago about the 1.star review written by AtomicCrimsonRush of a Japanese noisy Progressive electronic artist whose name I don't remember. ACR wrote it basing on youtube and with his agreement those reviews were deleted.
ACR is a Collab ... we need to be seen to be setting the standards.


Edited by Dean - April 10 2013 at 05:00


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:15
I have changed my mind about this. That first review, I thought to be kinda witty, yet well-informed. Now with all of this, plus the continuation of the GG 1* reviews, it's all getting a wee bit pathetic.
I guess there are noobs out there who feel compelled to do anything to get noticed, and so he did. Let's just not reward the aftermath of bad manners and ill advised opinion by continuing to direct the spotlight at him.(I know I'm perpetuating the exact same thing as I'm advocating against by merely posting in this thread, but let's all just cool down and leave this dude until he learns to be more polite round this place. If he doesn't, then I suspect he won't be missed all that much.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:23
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I have changed my mind about this. That first review, I thought to be kinda witty, yet well-informed. Now with all of this, plus the continuation of the GG 1* reviews, it's all getting a wee bit pathetic.
I guess there are noobs out there who feel compelled to do anything to get noticed, and so he did. Let's just not reward the aftermath of bad manners and ill advised opinion by continuing to direct the spotlight at him.(I know I'm perpetuating the exact same thing as I'm advocating against by merely posting in this thread, but let's all just cool down and leave this dude until he learns to be more polite round this place. If he doesn't, then I suspect he won't be missed all that much.)

That's sound advice.Approve
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