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Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16165
Topic: Another Facet of Prog - Change Posted: April 13 2013 at 16:11
axeman wrote:
...
I think he probably concentrated in his symphonic period and his trio period (Starless, Red), and the various parts of the Belew period. But the amount of concentration doesn't make them, in his mind "valid". If seriousness and concentration mattered, then each period should remain valid for the period it was. If it's like a painting, is it really that much like a painter to devalue his prior works or periods?
...
Robert has been, from day one, about his concentration level and dedication to that concentration that would help him do the things that he did. We can't see the movie in his head ... but no one will sit here and argue ... how did you find that? ... because we know he did!
You HAVE to let go and "devalue" (your word) the works of the past ... if you are an artist, or you become just another middle class hero (John Lennon words), and not an artist, simply repeating the same beat --- which is what a lot of bands today are doing since they can not do anything else!
And since you might not know this, it was very much the tradition of the 50s and 60's in film and theater and painting and music and literature to "devalue" (your word!) the previous material and work, in order to find something else, new and exciting ... please check out the "krautrock" special by the BBC, and pay particular attention to Edgar Froese's comments ... which in the end, is not just about "krautrock" but a whole generation around the world! They really are important words that define more about you and I ... than anything else we do or say ... !!!! Or, if it is your "bend" get "The Trip" and listen to Ken's words in the end ... about our ability to learn ... and even he thinks that we cop'd out in our excuses and did not learn! These are/were major artists of our time and the ones that we remember ... and they are not exactly perfect my words, but their sentiment is perfect!
axeman wrote:
...
I guess you get so used to like-dislike discussion on these forums that it's hard to tell when somebody likes to go beyond that, call it pretension if you will.
Sometimes ... but like the words below in my tag line, I hope that you have the taste and feeling inside, so you know what the words are ... instead of just farts in the wind!
Edited by moshkito - April 13 2013 at 16:20
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: March 13 2008
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Posted: April 12 2013 at 16:28
moshkito wrote:
If there is some anger, and I don't think that his anger is that harsh or vindictive, unlike these types of comments about his nature appears to be, it is rather well founded!
Never, said anything about anger. See, you say "pretension" like only something a certain sort of people can be accused of. I don't think that way.
moshkito wrote:
... to someone where concentration is important in a piece, it is his very foundation, but nooooo ... you interrupt him for an autograph ... or sto scream "rock'n'roll", and ignore the man on his trip ... and then you get upset that he got touchy with your interruption to his concentration
I've never met the man let alone, molested his concentration.
Concentration doesn't have anything to do with it. I think he probably concentrated in his symphonic period and his trio period (Starless, Red), and the various parts of the Belew period. But the amount of concentration doesn't make them, in his mind "valid". If seriousness and concentration mattered, then each period should remain valid for the period it was. If it's like a painting, is it really that much like a painter to devalue his prior works or periods?
I mean if he expects us to dishonor his previous works in the way he does, wouldn't have be closer to denigrating what I cannot do myself? I can't write Lizard, or Fallen Angel or Frame by Frame. So my inability is a constant across his body of work, just like his concentration on his music.
I'm not trying to condemn a person as much as think about the whole subject of pretense and music. There's a certain point where punk is pretentious. A person who writes "songs like Genesis" because they love 70s Genesis is in a punk-fashion less pretentious than a person who has to make stuff that doesn't sound like anybody else because they want to prove what a original genius they are. (No, that's not a slam at Fripp, either.)
In one sense you can say "prog is pretentious" in another sense you can say pretending to like music that is current when I just love the soundscapes of the prog era was a stigma that a lot of us 90s prog fans shook off. On the other hand, I often find myself pretentious when I reject pop bands because they're pop and later end up finding their tunes infectious. I tried not to like INXS, for example. I just couldn't win that battle over defining my own image.
I guess you get so used to like-dislike discussion on these forums that it's hard to tell when somebody likes to go beyond that, call it pretension if you will.
Joined: November 30 2012
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Posted: April 10 2013 at 22:35
Just as an example of what I meant, my favorite (current) song by National Health, "Tenemos Roads," exhibits an interesting and engaging beginning and end, but that middle section with the beautiful choral work is what I wish the entire song was based upon:
Joined: November 30 2012
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Posted: April 10 2013 at 22:32
^ Great song and band, ProgMetaller.
Thanks for all the great replies, everybody! This is something I really enjoy in music, and I'm glad people on here responded to it
Let it be known that I, too, love Buddy Holly, but a 20 minute rendition of something as simple as "Everyday" would get rather annoying.
Perhaps there is someone out there who enjoys prog but not the changes the song can undergo? I know that I, on occasion, get a bit peeved when a particular part of the song I really enjoyed is stuck between two other parts I don't quite enjoy as much, and I wonder why they didn't turn that awesome phrase into a whole different song.
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Posted: April 07 2013 at 19:51
I totally agree! My brother hates most progressive music and described it as "Hey-everybody-let's-go-on-an-adventure-music". This just made me smile because that's what I like about most of the music I love. It takes you from one "place" to another with stops in between. It's not just stuck in one location musically.
I don't think it's always true, and it's not necessarily correlated to if the music is progressive or not, but I do think progressive music in general has more room to take you on a journey.
Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: April 07 2013 at 11:31
axeman wrote:
... But I think the disgust he has with the era of music he is closing out, because he "no longer feels it is relevant" places a little too much burden on the "relevance" of any of his music. I think it actually makes him a little more pretentious when it comes down to it. ...
I think you misunderstand the man and his music, and you might consider listening to his other side by himself or with Eno or other experimentalists.
What you don't see, is that the music means so much to him on a personal level, that you can't imagine ... and that each piece is a mere painting of his mind at this moment ... but you are not accepting that painting at all ... and instead say that the man is pretentious. I would question the nature of the comment itself, instead, btw, rather than criticise someone else for something he DID DO, and you didn't ... but you feel the need to COMMENT on his doing!
If there is some anger, and I don't think that his anger is that harsh or vindictive, unlike these types of comments about his nature appears to be, it is rather well founded ... to someone where concentration is important in a piece, it is his very foundation, but nooooo ... you interrupt him for an autograph ... or sto scream "rock'n'roll", and ignore the man on his trip ... and then you get upset that he got touchy with your interruption to his concentration!
The music business itself, is a well known rip off and has been so for years. Sadly, he did not see, understand, or was able to hear the rumblings about owning your own music and company in the mid 70's, in order to make sure you could gain from it ... but most artists at the time did NOT listen to the comments, and still sold out for a quick paycheck, and nothing after it!
It's a two-edged sword, any way you look at it ... you feel the need to concentrate, and get interrupted by emotional things that prevent you from concentrating ... and you are complaining about Robert?
The other part, about "change" ... is that ALL music, forever, has always been abut change ... and chord change, note change, or bs change is NOT what drove what we came to call "progressive" music ... but you continually ignore that and stick to a search for a lost chord in the music -- that you think defines "progressive" ... and that "change" is found in ALL music out there ... but you might not know that?
Edited by moshkito - April 07 2013 at 11:33
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: June 20 2012
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Posted: April 06 2013 at 01:16
timbo wrote:
On the videos interviews packaged with the Genesis 1970-75 set, Peter Gabriel explains that change was something they explicitly tried to build into the songs on Trespass. He said they wanted to start with one theme, then move to another, then another without ever going back to the original - they were telling a story with the music.
Ironic then that later Genesis even named one of their songs after a traditional song structure - ABACAB - and then didn't stick to that structure with said song.
I love this aspect of prog. The OP was interested in counter-examples. I think there are numerous cases. Peter Gabriel's Rhythm of the Heat and San Jacinto are two. On the same album there is Family and the Fishing Net, which goes through lots of internal changes in it's arrangement(s).
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Posted: April 05 2013 at 01:44
Stool Man wrote:
richardh wrote:
I'm tempted to say that progressive music does what it likes. Why is so important to have to nail it down? Why have rules?
Without rules there'd be no "insistence" on such things as unusual time signatures, concepts, technical ability, unusual instrumentation, extended duration, and so on. What is prog without all of those things? Might as well be Doo-Wop or Disco, Reggae or Rhumba
ok but rules are made to be broken.
So you learn the rules then break them. That what's progressive imo.
I'm tempted to say that progressive music does what it likes. Why is so important to have to nail it down? Why have rules?
Without rules there'd be no "insistence" on such things as unusual time signatures, concepts, technical ability, unusual instrumentation, extended duration, and so on. What is prog without all of those things? Might as well be Doo-Wop or Disco, Reggae or Rhumba
On the videos interviews packaged with the Genesis 1970-75 set, Peter Gabriel explains that change was something they explicitly tried to build into the songs on Trespass. He said they wanted to start with one theme, then move to another, then another without ever going back to the original - they were telling a story with the music.
Ironic then that later Genesis even named one of their songs after a traditional song structure - ABACAB - and then didn't stick to that structure with said song.
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Posted: April 04 2013 at 08:37
paganinio wrote:
IMO one of the main qualities of a lot of prog bands (especially progressive metal bands) is to not change.
Opeth, for example, have remained pretty much the same style for decades. The 1996 Opeth heard in Morningrise and Edge of Sanity's Crimson, and the 2008/2011 Opeth in Watershed and Heritage, are very similar. You immediately recognize it as being Opeth.
But it's not about being stagnant, old-fashioned or anything like that. It's about preseverance and consistency. About setting a musical vision and sticking to it. It's symbolic of a man setting a goal for himself, and fighting towards that goal for the rest of his life. He doesn't change midway, 'cos it ain't done yet.
The OP referred to change within a piece of music, not along a band's career.
Yes, changes within one piece of music are one of the defining features of prog, no doubt about it.
One of the most enduring aspects of popular music is that it utilises traditional time served structures that we, as humans, seem to find immensely satisfying e.g. the call and response melodic orthodoxy of blues/jazz where what is anticipated is almost as satisfying as what is delivered. Similarly, folk/country forms often exploit the irresistible gravitational pull of the so called '3 chord trick"", where a modulation back to the tonic from a dominant gives us a feeling of closure and resolution. Why therefore do we continue to feign surprise that music which attempts to surmount said devices causes so much resistance and resentment?
IMO one of the main qualities of a lot of prog bands (especially progressive metal bands) is to not change.
Opeth, for example, have remained pretty much the same style for decades. The 1996 Opeth heard in Morningrise and Edge of Sanity's Crimson, and the 2008/2011 Opeth in Watershed and Heritage, are very similar. You immediately recognize it as being Opeth.
Opeth are like The Fall, to borrow John Peel's quote "always different, always the same". There are aspects that change (the lineup - they're on their fifth bassist & guitarist, and third drummer; and sound - lack of growling, addition of keyboards, etc)
Pink Floyd changed from R&B to Psychedelic pop to Space Rock to avant garde experiments to stadium rock, and only the drummer is on every album.
As for not changing, that's a main quality of most non-prog bands - you wouldn't call The Ramones or The Pet Shop Boys or Lonnie Donegan prog, would you?
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 20:21
IMO one of the main qualities of a lot of prog bands (especially progressive metal bands) is to not change.
Opeth, for example, have remained pretty much the same style for decades. The 1996 Opeth heard in Morningrise and Edge of Sanity's Crimson, and the 2008/2011 Opeth in Watershed and Heritage, are very similar. You immediately recognize it as being Opeth.
But it's not about being stagnant, old-fashioned or anything like that. It's about preseverance and consistency. About setting a musical vision and sticking to it. It's symbolic of a man setting a goal for himself, and fighting towards that goal for the rest of his life. He doesn't change midway, 'cos it ain't done yet.
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Posted: April 03 2013 at 19:47
Change has always been a hallmark of progressiveness. Some see this is innovation in terms of creating music, but it is more about how an individual piece undergoes changes throughout its duration. In this way, Prog is similar to Classical. Changes in key, time signature, and timbre (tone) are so common as to be regarded as cliches of the medium. This is how we can get fifteen, twenty, even thirty minute or longer songs - they undergo a lot of changes. It is not about playing the same riff over and over again, not like a 20 minute Buddy Holly song. BTW, I like Buddy Holly a lot. He is one of those innovators in rock who do not qualify as progressive.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Another Facet of Prog - Change
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axeman wrote:
