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XTC, Rod Argent, Garfield

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 02:39
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I DON'T think XTC should be in PA and those traits I listed above can be found in much Prog but don't of themselves qualify anyone as Prog. Does that make sense?

Honestly, I can't say that it does, but then I'm not running this site. It all goes back to the neverending debate over what qualifies as prog and what doesn't, and in the end it doesn't really matter. I've never cared much for pigeonholing and labeling and categorizing anyway. Everyone should just listen to what he or she considers good music, and I think just about everyone registered at PA already does that.
A Honda Civic has has many characteristics in common with a F1 racing car, but it's not a F1 racing car. Good music has many characteristics in common with Prog, but this isn't Good Music Archives.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AreYouHuman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 18:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I DON'T think XTC should be in PA and those traits I listed above can be found in much Prog but don't of themselves qualify anyone as Prog. Does that make sense?
Honestly, I can't say that it does, but then I'm not running this site. It all goes back to the neverending debate over what qualifies as prog and what doesn't, and in the end it doesn't really matter. I've never cared much for pigeonholing and labeling and categorizing anyway. Everyone should just listen to what he or she considers good music, and I think just about everyone registered at PA already does that.

A Honda Civic has has many characteristics in common with a F1 racing car, but it's not a F1 racing car. Good music has many characteristics in common with Prog, but this isn't Good Music Archives.

You're right, it isn't. But you do have a General Music Discussion forum which gets a lot of traffic. This is what I meant when I said that everyone registered at PA listens to what he or she considers good music, otherwise would that forum be as active as it is?

I'm starting to detect a little condescension here. I hope I'm wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2013 at 18:57
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I DON'T think XTC should be in PA and those traits I listed above can be found in much Prog but don't of themselves qualify anyone as Prog. Does that make sense?
Honestly, I can't say that it does, but then I'm not running this site. It all goes back to the neverending debate over what qualifies as prog and what doesn't, and in the end it doesn't really matter. I've never cared much for pigeonholing and labeling and categorizing anyway. Everyone should just listen to what he or she considers good music, and I think just about everyone registered at PA already does that.

A Honda Civic has has many characteristics in common with a F1 racing car, but it's not a F1 racing car. Good music has many characteristics in common with Prog, but this isn't Good Music Archives.

You're right, it isn't. But you do have a General Music Discussion forum which gets a lot of traffic. This is what I meant when I said that everyone registered at PA listens to what he or she considers good music, otherwise would that forum be as active as it is?
What people listen to and what they discuss in the General Music Discussions is not the same as suggesting those artists for inclusion in the PA or discussing them in a Suggest Artist thread.
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:


I'm starting to detect a little condescension here. I hope I'm wrong.
I hope you are too, I gear my answers to where they are posted.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 11:00
Funny - XTC was the first non-prog band I looked for when I was trying to find the edge of the Prog boundaries as drawn by ProgArchives. They weren't here, but it was evident that it wasn't because they weren't considered, based on the depth and width and breadth of the map.

But it didn't surprise me. XTC showed up with punk, and were instrumental in dismantling Prog right along with the Sex Pistols. I noticed that PIL, Magazine and Shriekback are missing also, which suggests to me that it's not just the style of music that designates Prog, it's also the effect that the artist had on Prog culture. Never mind that XTC was influenced by BeBop Deluxe, The Residents and Beefheart, they were here to slay the dinosaurs.

So from that angle I can see why they could be considered Anti-Prog.

But by killing prog they rescued it. It couldn't go on like it was. Not with Love Beach. Prog had jumped the shark. XTC was like a stealth bomber. Or maybe a Trojan horse. They looked like punk, sounded like punk, smelled like punk, and kicked Greg Lake's arse.

But if you were paying attention, you might have noticed that songs like X-Wires, from their debut album, sounded more like Beefheart than The Sex Pistols. And then, when we least expected it, after they wiped out Tull, ELP, Yes and Genesis, they served up a full-on capital P Progressive Rock double album: English Settlement. Clever little pricks.



So personally, I can see how they shouldn't be included, and at the same time see how they should be considered the most important Prog band of the '80's. I don't know what I would have done without them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 11:15
If you are going to suggest XTC, then might as well throw in Ultravox, John Foxx, Magazine and Depeche Mode! All are amazing bands with superb music but its just not progressive rock.!
Argent , the band did skirt the prog rim (Nexus, Circus albums) but Rod is more of a figure, rock icon kind of guy.Embarrassed 
Now Garfield was a super band from Canada with a majestically gorgeous album Out there Tonight, featuring 5-6 tracks that would bowl over any progfan   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 11:19
Just because a band is progressive doesn't mean it needs to be here. By that comparison, we should have Wire and Pere Ubu in here as well. Progressive? Yes indeedy! Prog rock? No way!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 12:19
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

If you are going to suggest XTC, then might as well throw in Ultravox, John Foxx, Magazine and Depeche Mode! All are amazing bands with superb music but its just not progressive rock.!


Agreed (except for Depeche Mode)!

You gotta stop somewhere, and as much as I love a lot of the usual suspects that get mentioned often (including Pere Ubu) they just don't seem to belong in ProgArchives.


Edited by stegor - April 23 2013 at 12:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AreYouHuman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 16:05
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I DON'T think XTC should be in PA and those traits I listed above can be found in much Prog but don't of themselves qualify anyone as Prog. Does that make sense?
Honestly, I can't say that it does, but then I'm not running this site. It all goes back to the neverending debate over what qualifies as prog and what doesn't, and in the end it doesn't really matter. I've never cared much for pigeonholing and labeling and categorizing anyway. Everyone should just listen to what he or she considers good music, and I think just about everyone registered at PA already does that.

A Honda Civic has has many characteristics in common with a F1 racing car, but it's not a F1 racing car. Good music has many characteristics in common with Prog, but this isn't Good Music Archives.
You're right, it isn't. But you do have a General Music Discussion forum which gets a lot of traffic. This is what I meant when I said that everyone registered at PA listens to what he or she considers good music, otherwise would that forum be as active as it is?

What people listen to and what they discuss in the General Music Discussions is not the same as suggesting those artists for inclusion in the PA or discussing them in a Suggest Artist thread.

Excuse me? Did you honestly believe I had the two confused? Can you show me where I give that impression? My point was that though there are different forums for different subjects, this is all one site and we're all here out of a love of good music.
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

I'm starting to detect a little condescension here. I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you are too, I gear my answers to where they are posted.

Can you point out where you’re not being condescending in either of your answers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 16:26
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I DON'T think XTC should be in PA and those traits I listed above can be found in much Prog but don't of themselves qualify anyone as Prog. Does that make sense?
Honestly, I can't say that it does, but then I'm not running this site. It all goes back to the neverending debate over what qualifies as prog and what doesn't, and in the end it doesn't really matter. I've never cared much for pigeonholing and labeling and categorizing anyway. Everyone should just listen to what he or she considers good music, and I think just about everyone registered at PA already does that.

A Honda Civic has has many characteristics in common with a F1 racing car, but it's not a F1 racing car. Good music has many characteristics in common with Prog, but this isn't Good Music Archives.
You're right, it isn't. But you do have a General Music Discussion forum which gets a lot of traffic. This is what I meant when I said that everyone registered at PA listens to what he or she considers good music, otherwise would that forum be as active as it is?

What people listen to and what they discuss in the General Music Discussions is not the same as suggesting those artists for inclusion in the PA or discussing them in a Suggest Artist thread.

Excuse me? Did you honestly believe I had the two confused? Can you show me where I give that impression? My point was that though there are different forums for different subjects, this is all one site and we're all here out of a love of good music.
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

I'm starting to detect a little condescension here. I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you are too, I gear my answers to where they are posted.

Can you point out where you’re not being condescending in either of your answers?
Do you really want to turn this into an argument?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AreYouHuman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 17:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Do you really want to turn this into an argument?

No, not at all. Just trying to find common ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AreYouHuman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

If you are going to suggest XTC, then might as well throw in Ultravox, John Foxx, Magazine and Depeche Mode! All are amazing bands with superb music but its just not progressive rock.!
Argent , the band did skirt the prog rim (Nexus, Circus albums) but Rod is more of a figure, rock icon kind of guy.Embarrassed 
Now Garfield was a super band from Canada with a majestically gorgeous album Out there Tonight, featuring 5-6 tracks that would bowl over any progfan   

Hey, Ultravox! That's the ticket!

Actually, at one point I was going to suggest them, since some of the elements of prog are there, though it's clear now that it would meet with plenty of opposition.

I bought that Garfield 2-fer CD last year, and it was my first listen of "Strange Streets"; I was already familiar with "OTT." I know the vocals probably turned off a few people, but musically I agree it's definitely in the realm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 18:20
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Do you really want to turn this into an argument?

No, not at all. Just trying to find common ground.
Then I suggest you take these off-topic discussions to the General Music area and not clutter the Suggest New Bands threads. As was meantioned earlier in the thread - we prefer one suggestion per thread and that discussion be limited to that band rather than become a general discussion on what is Prog or about our general inclusion policy.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 18:25
Originally posted by AreYouHuman AreYouHuman wrote:

Hey, Ultravox! That's the ticket!

Actually, at one point I was going to suggest them, since some of the elements of prog are there, though it's clear now that it would meet with plenty of opposition.

Ultravox! already suggested www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38830&PN=1 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2013 at 20:26
Wow - that was interesting to look back at. Visage! Fond, poofy memories. I know we're going way off topic now, but All those bands that went down the Bowie/Kraftwerk/Roxy path like Magazine, Ultravox and Gary Numan - I absolutely love them as much as any Prog. But I started listening to them around 1980 precisely because they were NOT Prog. Add to that Polyrock, and some real obscurities like The Units, Experiments With Ice and Ceramic Hello. Then there's OMD. I don't care how hard you try, despite the fact that OMD did some incredibly unique and experimental music they will never be Prog (I just checked to make sure I wouldn't have to eat my words).

Of course OMD is not XTC, so let's get back on topic.
All this bickering has distracted everyone from my erudite dissertation on XTC. Now go back there and read it for cryin out loud!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 06:50
Originally posted by stegor stegor wrote:

Funny - XTC was the first non-prog band I looked for when I was trying to find the edge of the Prog boundaries as drawn by ProgArchives. They weren't here, but it was evident that it wasn't because they weren't considered, based on the depth and width and breadth of the map.

But it didn't surprise me. XTC showed up with punk, and were instrumental in dismantling Prog right along with the Sex Pistols. I noticed that PIL, Magazine and Shriekback are missing also, which suggests to me that it's not just the style of music that designates Prog, it's also the effect that the artist had on Prog culture. Never mind that XTC was influenced by BeBop Deluxe, The Residents and Beefheart, they were here to slay the dinosaurs.

So from that angle I can see why they could be considered Anti-Prog.

But by killing prog they rescued it. It couldn't go on like it was. Not with Love Beach. Prog had jumped the shark. XTC was like a stealth bomber. Or maybe a Trojan horse. They looked like punk, sounded like punk, smelled like punk, and kicked Greg Lake's arse.

But if you were paying attention, you might have noticed that songs like X-Wires, from their debut album, sounded more like Beefheart than The Sex Pistols. And then, when we least expected it, after they wiped out Tull, ELP, Yes and Genesis, they served up a full-on capital P Progressive Rock double album: English Settlement. Clever little pricks.

So personally, I can see how they shouldn't be included, and at the same time see how they should be considered the most important Prog band of the '80's. I don't know what I would have done without them.
XTC killed prog? I thought the Clash had already done that. Slightly ironic then that Dave Gregory ended up playing in 2 prog bands and Andy Partridge has collaborated with Peter Blegvad.
 
And is English Settlement really a prog album?


Edited by chopper - April 24 2013 at 06:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 07:07
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:


 
And is English Settlement really a prog album?


NOWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 07:40
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by stegor stegor wrote:

Funny - XTC was the first non-prog band I looked for when I was trying to find the edge of the Prog boundaries as drawn by ProgArchives. They weren't here, but it was evident that it wasn't because they weren't considered, based on the depth and width and breadth of the map. But it didn't surprise me. XTC showed up with punk, and were instrumental in dismantling Prog right along with the Sex Pistols. I noticed that PIL, Magazine and Shriekback are missing also, which suggests to me that it's not just the style of music that designates Prog, it's also the effect that the artist had on Prog culture. Never mind that XTC was influenced by BeBop Deluxe, The Residents and Beefheart, they were here to slay the dinosaurs.So from that angle I can see why they could be considered Anti-Prog.But by killing prog they rescued it. It couldn't go on like it was. Not with Love Beach. Prog had jumped the shark. XTC was like a stealth bomber. Or maybe a Trojan horse. They looked like punk, sounded like punk, smelled like punk, and kicked Greg Lake's arse. But if you were paying attention, you might have noticed that songs like X-Wires, from their debut album, sounded more like Beefheart than The Sex Pistols. And then, when we least expected it, after they wiped out Tull, ELP, Yes and Genesis, they served up a full-on capital P Progressive Rock double album: English Settlement. Clever little pricks.So personally, I can see how they shouldn't be included, and at the same time see how they should be considered the most important Prog band of the '80's. I don't know what I would have done without them.

XTC killed prog? I thought the Clash had already done that. Slightly ironic then that Dave Gregory ended up playing in 2 prog bands and Andy Partridge has collaborated with Peter Blegvad.

 

And is English Settlement really a prog album?


... and recently with Mike Keneally.

Not really, I think. But it is a very clever album, a fine example of a New Wave band that has lifted up its music to a higher level.
Note: another New Wave band, Talking Heads, is included in Prog Related.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 10:07
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:


 
And is English Settlement really a prog album?


NOWink
That's what I thought. It's one of the best double albums ever made, end to end brilliance, but it's not prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 10:30
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:


 
And is English Settlement really a prog album?


NOWink
That's what I thought. It's one of the best double albums ever made, end to end brilliance, but it's not prog.

Well I never thought it was before and I'm not going to start to now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2013 at 11:51
Well, if English Settlement is XTC's proggiest album but still isn't Prog then XTC isn't Prog! Pretty simple.
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