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When will 'Pop music' stop?

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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When will 'Pop music' stop?
    Posted: April 26 2013 at 21:02
Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by lucas


I suspect progsters to be allergic to the word "pop", I don't know why because prog rock is part of pop culture. There is nothing to be ashamed of. Even if it can draw influences from classical music, one has to admit that it remains pop/rock music. 


Maybe they wouldn't like to acknowledge that pop also draws from classical music (e.g. ABBA) at times and a lot from jazz.  The difference is mainly in terms of form but rock music of the early 70s was shaped by the mid-late 60s psychedelic rock wave so they were more or less part of a common culture rather than originating from completely different sources.  This trend continued into the 80s and 90s and prog metal became the genre of choice for lots of new bands because metal was ruling the waves either in its full blooded form or in the form of hair/glam metal.  Maybe with retro becoming more and more popular, there is a disconnect now between popular culture and prog. 
Where do you see retro becoming popular? Isn't there a "disconnect" because it is prog that is founded on retro, not pop?

Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 26 2013 at 21:04
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2013 at 22:14
Yeah, I meant that retro prog is becoming a popular niche within prog.  Even Wilson and Akerfeldt want to go back to the 70s.  And so prog is a bit out of touch with pop, for better or worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 02:32
Is 'retro prog' an oxymoron?  Should it be called Regressive Rock, or Reg for short? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 02:44
^ Chuck (cstack3) has once brought up that one Wetton quote regarding progress and regress about a month ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 03:20
Originally posted by lucas

Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by lucas

Given that prog rock was very popular in the seventies, i would also include it under the generic label of 'pop music'. 
But I don't think ELP's Toccata or Yes Close To The Edge will come to mind to most people when they think about the term 'Pop music' Confused.


Neil Diamond's OST for 'Jonahtan Livingston Seagull' is full of orchestrations and certainly more "symphonic" than anything ELP or Yes released. So the argument of classical music influences is not valid.


I'm not really sure if anyone here is strenuously pushing this argument but Keith Emerson's adaptation of the 4th Movement of Ginastera's 1st Piano Concerto is what? an example of the sort of bowdlerization of the classics in the same vein as Nutrocker? (which ELP covered as a tongue in cheek encore of course) Is Toccata 'pop' because it was released when classical adaptations were a fad? Apres le fad, what is Toccata if judged on its own terms? I enjoy Neil Diamond's music for Jonathan Livingston Seagull certainly, but you are deluded as far as symphonic orchestral writing is concerned - these are pieces that obey to the letter pop song forms and structures albeit augmented by orchestral forces e.g. Scott Walker's songs will remain brilliant pop writing irrespective of the orchestral arrangements. I really don't believe you are gauche enough to believe that musical composition that obeys the strictures of symphonic form is invalidated by being realised on Hammond Organ and Moog synth. Practically the whole of Brain Salad Surgery was constructed in this fashion and the musical ideas and themes are treated and developed in the same manner as they might be approached by Sibelius, Bartok, Stravinsky, Copeland et al. (Electricity appears to have much to answer for)


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 27 2013 at 03:35
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 05:18
Shirley you mean practically the whole of Karn Evil 9, and I'd probably dispute that if I could muster the energy.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 05:41
There was me thinking I typed that verbatim but hey ho, perish the thought, you must not spread your brilliance too thinly
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 05:43
piss off Iain. X2



Edited by Dean - April 27 2013 at 17:26


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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2013 at 11:02
When will the pop stop??? God. I hope right now. Genesis used up all my love for a pop sound in music. I'm spent. Invisible touch is the most I can take. :)
How Transatlantic's Kaleidoscope beat IQ's The Road Of Bones in the Prog album of the year category at this years Prog awards (2014) is beyond me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2013 at 05:00
Originally posted by lucas

Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by lucas

Given that prog rock was very popular in the seventies, i would also include it under the generic label of 'pop music'. 
But I don't think ELP's Toccata or Yes Close To The Edge will come to mind to most people when they think about the term 'Pop music' Confused.


Neil Diamond's OST for 'Jonahtan Livingston Seagull' is full of orchestrations and certainly more "symphonic" than anything ELP or Yes released. So the argument of classical music influences is not valid.

Sountrackery is not pop...
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stool Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2013 at 05:17
Soundtrackery is not pop?

In the 50s the soundtrack album of "South Pacific" was Number One for 115 weeks (including the whole of 1959)


In the 60s the soundtrack album of "The Sound Of Music" was Number One for a total of 70 weeks. (twice in '65, 3 times in '66, 5 times in '67, and twice in '68)

In the US, the best selling album of the 60s was the soundtrack album of "West Side Story"

In the 70s, the soundtrack album of "Saturday Night Fever" was Number One for 18 consecutive weeks and spawned lots of hit singles.


etc etc etc
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2013 at 05:22
Pop is a song form that goes back to early jazz and before. In a way, that post early on in this thread saying that the 60's / 70's killed it off is true: the main thing about prog is its dispensing of that song form, and yet still retaining its identity as "rock", which was a type of pop.

Sure, there was pop after that, but the psychedelic era pushed the form as far as it could go (the 80's squeezed the last juice from it, by adding synths to the mix). It is all retro from there on, and consequently gets replaced. For example, disco is often not pop. It's an even simpler form. Hip hop / edm are even further in that direction. Music keeps getting simpler. I'm not sure you actually want to hurry the death of pop. Then again, the post about retro being popular now is kind of true. It guess it has to be, if you get me.
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jude111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2013 at 09:24
Originally posted by King Crimson776

Music keeps getting simpler. I'm not sure you actually want to hurry the death of pop. Then again, the post about retro being popular now is kind of true. It guess it has to be, if you get me.

"Music keeps getting simpler." I don't buy it. Can you rap like Jay-Z? Can you evoke the same moods using the same tonal palette and pastiche style as Burial? Can anyone be another Brian Eno, or Thom Yorke? Rapping has its own skills set, and not many are great at it. 

It's like saying that literature devolved and became simplistic when the novel replaced epic poetry, or that no one writes like Shelley anymore. Ways of reading change; in a similar way, ways of making music, and listening to music, change as well. There's been a lot of talk the last decade or more about how the DJ and the music producer has replaced the instrumentalist as the locus of creativity. These are innovations in music, related to technological advancement. I find all this rather interesting... If you're a music lover, then we live in exciting times.


Edited by jude111 - May 05 2013 at 09:29
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King Crimson776 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2013 at 22:43
Skill doesn't necessarily have to do with musical complexity (plus Jay-Z isn't even technically good). Coming up with lyrics is where most of the skill in rap is anyway. IMO Burial evokes the mood of doing a bunch of cough syrup, so I would probably never gravitate to that.

Novels are more complex in most ways than epic poetry. Length is not equal to complexity. The DJ is a technological innovation, not a musical one. There were ways to sample and tamper with pre-existing music before then. It just wasn't as easy. Hip hop is a style partly born from that ease. The instrumentalist being replaced is terrible, imo, because music "producers" don't usually bother to learn theory (and consequently understand how composition has worked throughout history).
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 09:29
^^^ Re music getting simpler, it depends on what you call pop music.  Muse's 2nd Law album has already 1.6 million copies worldwide.  Everything Everything's sophomore effort has done well on British charts.   Irrespective of how aesthetically elegant they may or may not be, they are not particularly simplified (esp not Everything Everything). 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 18:07
Pop music itself can only compress to a certain degree without losing its identity. I'm saying it largely gave way to a new, different, but simpler thing. Each new movement is simpler than the last:

Classical --> Jazz --> Rock/Pop --> Dance/Hip Hop --> One-Note Throb (2025) --> *raw sinewave*

But no, I don't think it will go any further in this direction. The most popular music will remain a mix of pop and dance music, at least until the revolution.
"It's music, and I like it" - Miles Davis on Sketches of Spain
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