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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 19:56
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

From the artist standpoint:
All of this said, art is not subjective, but rather relative. Music is like a math but with problems far too complex for us to solve on brain-power alone. All of Aretha Franklin's crescendos and her vibrato and her accent etc. are physical phenomena that, at least to human ear, can happen again and could theoretically be planned, but when she sang a song right it wasn't because all of those physical phenomena were consciously rendered, although some of them may have been; it was because it felt right, whether it was a little out of tune or offbeat or perfectly in tune.
That right there - how is this not subjective?
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

The way to write music isn't subjective, but relative to you. If you feel you don't want to write lyrics that I generally respect, you will never write those kinds of lyrics the right way except by chance.
Given this scenario, what is the right way? And where is the element of chance there?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 16 2015 at 20:03
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Luna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 20:02
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Isn't being original relative? If you were to go back to the 19th century and play Beatles songs, you'd shake up the music scene for centuries to come. Doing that today: not so much.
We are living in 2010's, so forget about the past or how people in 19th century would be blown away by The Beatles' songs. Nowadays it's hard to come up with anything that wasn't tried before.
Except it isn't. We simply limit ourselves to genres and styles then realize that many things have been done before. Music has existed for thousands of years and people have never had a problem making original-sounding things. I seriously doubt that this is a 2010's issue.
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Likewise, boundaries are also relative. What boundaries are we pushing here? Making unique sounding music?
Doesn't matter. As long as you are doing something that wasn't tried before, ... doesn't matter.
Don't have a response to this.
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

... if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy.
What is so ballsy about moving on to mainstream? That's playing safe, not being ballsy.
Except it's not. An audience is significant in this example. Such a dramatic change would certainly upset the image of the artist and how they're seen. Even excluding the audience, it's ballsy to flip your style upside-down.
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Having balls means several different things, depending on where you are as an artist. If you're a well known pop star, for example, having balls would be releasing some sort of non-conventional, experimental album. However, if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy. However, without this context, ... .
... which context?
The context of the artist being well-established in the experimental genre.
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Writing intelligent lyrics I would also say is relative since intelligence is relative. Not everyone in the audience has the same capacity for artistic or literary appreciation.
This isn't about the audience's intelligence. This is about the intelligence of the artist. What is so relative there?
Because the intelligence of the artist only exists in the mind of the audience. If you want to write intelligent lyrics, write lyrics that you find intelligent. But some people will find what you may see as "unintelligent" lyrics intelligent or the other way around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 20:22
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Isn't being original relative? If you were to go back to the 19th century and play Beatles songs, you'd shake up the music scene for centuries to come. Doing that today: not so much.
We are living in 2010's, so forget about the past or how people in 19th century would be blown away by The Beatles' songs. Nowadays it's hard to come up with anything that wasn't tried before.
Except it isn't. We simply limit ourselves to genres and styles then realize that many things have been done before. Music has existed for thousands of years and people have never had a problem making original-sounding things.
Maybe until now ... or maybe even the early 90's. At some point, we've stopped actually exploring ideas. 
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

I seriously doubt that this is a 2010's issue.
I really think it is. Again, at some point we've stopped trying. You have a musical idea, a sound with a set of characteristics, ... why can't it be labelled?

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

... if you're an established experimental artist, perhaps having balls would be releasing something conventional and poppy.
What is so ballsy about moving on to mainstream? That's playing safe, not being ballsy.
Except it's not. An audience is significant in this example. Such a dramatic change would certainly upset the image of the artist and how they're seen. Even excluding the audience, it's ballsy to flip your style upside-down.
Not all audience is significant. Besides, what is so ballsy about the idea itself of flipping your style upside-down? Who can perceive that as ballsy?

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Writing intelligent lyrics I would also say is relative since intelligence is relative. Not everyone in the audience has the same capacity for artistic or literary appreciation.
This isn't about the audience's intelligence. This is about the intelligence of the artist. What is so relative there?
Because the intelligence of the artist only exists in the mind of the audience. If you want to write intelligent lyrics, write lyrics that you find intelligent. But some people will find what you may see as "unintelligent" lyrics intelligent or the other way around.
Then we are talking about some mis-informed/mis-educated audience. It's the intellectual resourcefulness and the ability to rationalize (that's how I break down intelligence) of the artist that count, don't they?




Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 16 2015 at 20:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 21:32
On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.
2. Rock music used to be at the frontier of technology; now electronic is. Electronic Dance Music originally evolved from rock, so I'd call this an achievement. 
3. Innovation is not impossible in rock in the 2010s. It might be hard, but it has always been hard. 
4. Innovation is prevented by 5 things:
a. The mentality that innovation is unachievable in the 2010s.
b. The pining for the "glory days" of rock'n'roll, typified by the endless revivals (post-punk, garage rock, psychedelic, etc.) from the late 90s and on, many of which have yielded at least one good band, but have been excessive to say the least.
c. The inability or unwillingness to get on board with any innovations of recent years. 
d. The oppressive presence of genre-labels in the creative process with the internet. When really get down to it, labels are insufficient especially because they 
e. Most people fall short when they try. They knee-jerk to dissonance, but the edges of dissonance have already been explored. 
5. In reality, if you are creatively restless, completely open-minded, and, above all, expressing yourself, your music will develop its own character. That might not be anything new, per se at first, just something that feels like you and no one else, but as you branch out and experiment you might come across something surprising. 
6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.



Edited by Polymorphia - January 16 2015 at 21:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 22:52
I wrote a reply to your comment probably ten times Dayvenkirq, but I always ended up accidentally deleting it or going to another page (darn laptop pads). I'll write it later. *sigh*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 23:15
^ Ne pas probleme.
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 23:18
i have responses but it's late so i'll get to em tomorrow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 23:37
In any case, ...

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.

...

6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.
Armed with this explanation, can you give one example of a recent true innovation in electronic music?
 
 


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 16 2015 at 23:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Pessimist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2015 at 11:54
Hey folks! Haven't been on in a while as I've been super busy playing with The Cinematic Orchestra and my own project Zeitgeist... Speaking of Zeitgeist, our album has officially been launched! Check it out if you fancy odd-timed contemporary jazz/prog with a heavy influence on improvisation. Or just music in general. I think you'll like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOTOMS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 08:11
Hey folks, after years my album is almost finished. Check it out the current status of some of the tracks.

Thanks for all the musicians who worked with me, progarchives members great feedbacks at facebook and the unfergettable partnership from Voivod at the concert!!

AVant Garde/Post-Dodecaphonic/Technical/Jazz/Death/Electro/RIO

The main suites, Cult of Dementia and Shin Cybernatural, was recorded by myself all alone (Sax&otherbrass, Guitar&otherstrings, all keys, noises, vocals, real drum, electronic drum, computer, tapes programming, random instruments, etc...)



hope some feedback :D




Edited by VOTOMS - January 19 2015 at 08:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 09:36
^Will listen both you guys!

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

In any case, ...

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

On the topic of innovation:
1. It is happening, but not so much in rock music. Moreso in electronic music.

...

6. There IS a different kind of innovation that is happening, a revisionism in the revivals, which is why I don't dismiss them altogether. There will be a couple bands that add a unique songwriting sense to the music, or some more modern elements, or something that hasn't previously been applied to that genre. At the same time, there's only a handful of bands that are really doing anything radical and whether or not they are doing anything truly radical is still arguable, esp. because, again, rock music is no longer at the frontier of technology.
Armed with this explanation, can you give one example of a recent true innovation in electronic music?
 
 
Point 6 is supposed to refer to rock music only btw. 

The innovation happening in electronic music has to do with the medium itself. People are mixing in organic elements in different ways or experimenting with creating very very sparse or very very dense recordings. Because it is a recorded medium there is less discrepancy between composition and recording, compositional ideas can be more easily executed. This is why I like to include recording in the creative process earlier on.


Edited by Polymorphia - January 19 2015 at 09:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozark Soundscape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2015 at 01:57
Andrew's Songwriting Protips #375:
If you can't find a rhyme, take inspiration from the Beach Boys: just add "now" to the end of every line!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floflo79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2015 at 03:32


My album called Vango II. In three parts. For the song Garden Ruins in the second part, check the good version here :

Searching for feedback :)



Edited by floflo79 - January 24 2015 at 03:34
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