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Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?

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kingcrimsonfan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kingcrimsonfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?
    Posted: September 06 2013 at 10:48
This video should explain this argument, but, my personal views on this is that these new symphonic "prog" rock bands are not necessarily bad, but, they are not pushing the boundaries like bands like King Crimson, Van der graaf Generator, and Porcupine Tree. It is kind of ticking me off that some of these "prog bands" want to play it safe and stay to the typical prog rock cliche. This is not my video. This is a video done by Darren Lock and you can find him on youtube if you are interested in his other videos. I also want to hear everyone else's opinions on how progressive in nature is "prog" in the modern era.

Here is the link to the video: http://youtu.be/V44jK3K9hMM
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 12:09
90% of modern 'prog' bands play it safe and are cliche-ridden (and that includes some current avant-prog bands). I've found that the more original the band is, the less anyone will pay attention to them. However, the same band 20 years later will be praised as so important and influential. Go figure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TheGazzardian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 12:21
Calling progressive rock progressive rock was the greatest disservice ever done to the genre. It created the unreliable expectations.

When people release a punk album and it sounds like punk, nobody cares, they just like it if it's good. But if people release a prog album and it sounds like prog, they complain.

Progressive rock is a style, not a mantra; I find terms like "symphonic rock", "jazz rock", and "psychedelic rock" to be much more meaningful. If your obsession is constantly hearing things you have never heard before, then latching yourself on to one genre, even one with a name like "progressive rock", will only disappoint. Move outside your comfort zone into other genres, such as noise rock, jazz, hip hop, alternative country, tropicalia, baroque, etc... there are enough genres out there you can listen to something in a new genre every day and you'll always be hearing new things.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 12:22
Sorry I can't get Y.T. to work. I haven't heard quite enough of the modern era. A few bands I listen to started in the early90's. White Willow and a few others, but not many. What is your definition of progressive? There are many different aspects to consider about the definition when it is in reference to music. Progressive Jazz to a musician is easily explained in simple terms of playing outside the melody. Playing outside the melody is expanding the sound and complexity of the music and so it can also be said that the act itself is to move foward. In Progressive Rock the ideology spells out the need to incorporate influences of Classical/Jazz/Folk/Asian music and even Blues occasionally ..to your own creations or writings. Usually when a musician is hired to compose for theatre or strictly performing, that combination of elements often exists. A theme is created along with sometimes a sequence of musical reprise..which is connected to the musical characteristics of progressive rock.
 
Being so called ..progressive on your instrument is not limited to 1 style only. It doesn't go without saying and not all of the time because some of the most amazing progressive sax solos are found in Pop songs. The reason being that musicians , if experienced and devoted..can add progressive playing to almost any style of music except Classical which is always encouraged to follow the transcribed manuscript out of respect and remorse to the composers. That being the most logical reason for reflections of Classical music being merely incorporated to a Rock music structure within the sound itself and that becoming what is defined as progressive in rock.
 
Regarding King Crimson...many of the musicians (not just Fripp), were students/followers of Classical and Jazz music. The combinations of everyone's style of playing/approach was scattered and when cemented as a unit sometimes charted a different type of innovative sound. Bruford was actually a kind of Classical drummer who was interested in playing Jazz. That added a unique sound to the band. Bands in the present ..not pushing boundaries may have to do with the lack of interest in just letting go of themselves in the studio. Maybe they DO cling to formulas/ideas of the past and dismiss experimentation. I'm not totally sure. Some musicians express a refusal to repeat or even listen to innovators of the past. This doesn't work either, but some musicians are under the impression that it does. You might get the impression they are repeating what other's did in the 70's , while in fact what musician's were doing in the 70's was about a concept of moving foward.
 
The well known prog bands like YES, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull and ELP were very diverse from each other. Why would that be? Why would that reality be so easy to exist?  They had devoted long hours to it, but were confident about the outcome of sounding original. The reason being that they knew what path to follow and that didn't take them on a musical course which led to sounding like another band. If they based one of their prog albums around a period piece, the music would be condensed for a 5 or 3 piece band..which meant lots of rehearsal time in making it sound full. Sometimes even adding an orchestra for good measure. If not, there would be sections of elements in sound that derived from the 60's such as feedback from an organ (instead of Hendrix guitar) or a signature line in a Camel song that was based around a pentatonic scale. Such as one which you may have heard only briefly in a Jefferson Airplane song , yet cleaned up a bit and more pronounced. It's all about past elements contributing to new ones that evolve from being inspired. If that's not happening today, then that would be the reason why you personally do not hear anything very creative.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by TheGazzardian

Calling progressive rock progressive rock was the greatest disservice ever done to the genre. It created the unreliable expectations.

When people release a punk album and it sounds like punk, nobody cares, they just like it if it's good. But if people release a prog album and it sounds like prog, they complain.

Progressive rock is a style, not a mantra; I find terms like "symphonic rock", "jazz rock", and "psychedelic rock" to be much more meaningful. If your obsession is constantly hearing things you have never heard before, then latching yourself on to one genre, even one with a name like "progressive rock", will only disappoint. Move outside your comfort zone into other genres, such as noise rock, jazz, hip hop, alternative country, tropicalia, baroque, etc... there are enough genres out there you can listen to something in a new genre every day and you'll always be hearing new things.
Exactly.  Thank you for saving me the time to write essentially the same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rottenhat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 13:16
Originally posted by HolyMoly

Originally posted by TheGazzardian

Calling progressive rock progressive rock was the greatest disservice ever done to the genre. It created the unreliable expectations.

When people release a punk album and it sounds like punk, nobody cares, they just like it if it's good. But if people release a prog album and it sounds like prog, they complain.

Progressive rock is a style, not a mantra; I find terms like "symphonic rock", "jazz rock", and "psychedelic rock" to be much more meaningful. If your obsession is constantly hearing things you have never heard before, then latching yourself on to one genre, even one with a name like "progressive rock", will only disappoint. Move outside your comfort zone into other genres, such as noise rock, jazz, hip hop, alternative country, tropicalia, baroque, etc... there are enough genres out there you can listen to something in a new genre every day and you'll always be hearing new things.
Exactly.  Thank you for saving me the time to write essentially the same thing.

Yes, that is my opinion too. Progressive rock is a strange name. Progressing to where? More complex? More hypnotic? More grandiose? Experimental rock would maybe have been a better name.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 13:32
No.
 
 
 
 
 
 
...next!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote irrelevant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 13:41
^ What is the first prog album? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 13:45
Of course it is progressive, in the 70's quite a few of the sub genres never existed. It does not all sound like yes or genesis.This is such a tired subject it should be banned from the forum, along with that other thriller.......who was the first progressive rock band. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rottenhat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 13:45
Smile

This discussion is not progressing...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:00
Originally posted by irrelevant

^ What is the first prog album? 
Reported
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:10
On of my favorite replies to this question comes from John Wetton in this interview:


AL: It's hard to have a prog context at hand, when you write a song on your own, anyway... 


JW: Yes, exactly so. Prog stuff tends to happen in the rehearsal room. You get a drummer and a keyboard player involved, and they start extemporising on themes. I mean, I think that prog probably came about somewhere where American jazz and blues hit European classical music. I think that's how prog was born. The father was European classical music, and the mother was American blues, and the offspring was something we call progressive music. I don't think as a generic term it works anymore. Because it's not progressive, in fact it's more regressive. 


AL: It promised too much, I think... 


JW: It promised too much, yeah. And also, now it's back to everyone... Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... 


AL: Sophisticated rock, in a way... 


JW: Yeah. I don't mind, I like sophisticated rock, you know, I like the fact that people can play their instruments. But to me, I think that music must change, it always has to change. We can't stand and try to turn the tide back, it must change. And you have to go with that, otherwise you're drowned.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:13
It's  certainly 'progressive' compared to the stuff that is released in the mainstream radio friendly pop media  world which is what the majority of people listen to. No one in my family listens to prog other than my son in law ,and 2 friends who are old timers like me. Most think it's too weird....that doesn't necessarily make it 'progresssive' but it certainly isn't mainstream music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:15

JW: Yeah. I don't mind, I like sophisticated rock, you know, I like the fact that people can play their instruments. But to me, I think that music must change, it always has to change. We can't stand and try to turn the tide back, it must change. And you have to go with that, otherwise you're drowned.

[/QUOTE]
 
Yes...which is why he's been playing the same music, KC , Asia, Uk,  for the last 40 years or so and hasn't 'changed' either.
Wink
 
 


Edited by dr wu23 - September 06 2013 at 14:15
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progresssaurus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 14:17
Originally posted by irrelevant

^ What is the first prog album? 

I like this question, because it is pure religious question LOL

We can ask similarly who is fist human. Pure religious answer is Adam. 

But in real world with real evolution this question has no answer.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 15:11
Progressive is an odd term...I've always preferred "Art Rock" Wink

Compared to what came before in the world of rock, the early 70's prog bands were a literal "progression", but once the style was defined and bands began playing "in that style" it no longer progressed.  I don't think this is a bad thing as the style that defined "progressive" allows so much creativity within it that bands can spend years exploring all the nuances of the genre and never repeat themselves.  For me "progressive rock" isn't a literal direction of what the music should do, it's simply a description of what the music sounds like.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progresssaurus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

Progressive is an odd term...I've always preferred "Art Rock" Wink

I too. But I see now, that neither "Progressive Rock" nor "Art Rock" is ideal. Now I prefer "Some sounds, which I like"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 16:11
I think music in general has become too samey...no matter the genre. I've heard very little innovation in any kind of music since the late '90s. The album that impressed me the most this year was the new Daft Punk...and it's a complete homage to the disco, R&B and synth-pop of the late '70s/early '80s. Completely regressive and unoriginal yet it's still more enjoyable than a lot of other new music. Sad, really.

The only innovation happening today is in technology apparently. Most art has become stagnant.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 16:50
Originally posted by progresssaurus

Originally posted by irrelevant

^ What is the first prog album? 

I like this question, because it is pure religious question LOL

We can ask similarly who is fist human. Pure religious answer is Adam. 

But in real world with real evolution this question has no answer.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2013 at 17:39
More relevantly, there are a lot of new bands that ask themselves the same questions about music and place the same limits on themselves as most others past and present, so it's no wonder most prog sounds the same as it did years ago. Many prog musicians today pat themselves on the back for escaping the pop paradigm, never asking themselves "why" or "how." They simply remove the structural limits of pop music. But limits are always there. If they are not conscious limits, they are the subconscious limit of only creating that with which one is familiar. No matter how many styles and instruments they try to add, it's still the same old game if you stick to the same train of thought.

A similar dilemma with avant-garde music. Much of it attempts to simply rebel against musical constructions, and the musicians themselves don't view it as something to be explored, something that can't be stripped of an inherent aesthetic, an inherent effect on the listener.

Such simplistic thought regarding music should be avoided, imo.


Edited by Polymorphia - September 06 2013 at 17:44
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