Progarchives.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum SearchSearch  Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32733
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog?
    Posted: December 05 2013 at 12:20
Fripp makes a clear distinction between Crimson, solo and other projects and that is his right. Anyone can see that KC is very much a creative whole rather than a vehicle for Fripp, which is why he chooses his band mates very carefully. Personally I think he's at his best when he is feeding off other people's ideas and creativity.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
DiamondDog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Post Options Post Options   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 11:55
What a good headline - When does a band become a brand? Sounds like an excellent discussion topic to me.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32733
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 11:18
How many original members need remain before a band becomes a brand






...I could go on, and on, and on...


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
DiamondDog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Post Options Post Options   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 11:04
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89

Originally posted by DiamondDog

I don't see any contradiction in that - whatever band of musicians were brought together, with only Fripp as the constant - I'm sure it was a communal effort, or at least, could be. That doesn't change the fact that the band originally called King Crimson were no longer together, Fripp merely used the label as a selling tool for whatever projects he fancied at the time.


So anytime a band changes personnel or breaks up, they should develop a new name? That's what I'm inferring from this.

I suppose it's all about the balance - new incarnations can be formed or evolved by one member leaving and somewhere down the line another, but there must come a point (around midway?) when the original band cannot be said to exist. In the case of King Crimson, wholesale clear-out with only Fripp as constant speaks for itself. A very fine guitarist for sure, and always interesting in whatever he does, but King Crimson still lives? Hardly. 
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12137
Post Options Post Options   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 14:54
Originally posted by dr wu23

...I'm sure 'they' used the name KC because of name recognition and I have no problem with that...


Such tactics can sure help with sales, but using the name KC meant that those people expecting KC and the Sunshine Band might be left feeling very misled and irate (might have helped turn a few disco fans into prog fans though).  I think it would have been better if they had stuck with the name King Crimson instead of using the initials for name recognition from a very different audience... Hey, but whatever works. ;)
Back to Top
dr wu23 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4063
Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 14:42
Originally posted by DiamondDog

I don't see any contradiction in that - whatever band of musicians were brought together, with only Fripp as the constant - I'm sure it was a communal effort, or at least, could be. That doesn't change the fact that the band originally called King Crimson were no longer together, Fripp merely used the label as a selling tool for whatever projects he fancied at the time.
I'm sure 'they' used the name KC because of name recognition and I have no problem with that, but I honestly believe that much of what they did under the KC name was not all Fripp and definitely  a communal effort.
Et In Arcadia Ego
Back to Top
Genital Giant View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: March 30 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 91
Post Options Post Options   Quote Genital Giant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 14:19
 I personally dislike dissecting prog into all the little prog sub-genres on here. If it's prog then it's prog. All prog is eclectic, so that term in and of itself is redundant. King Crimson to me is the epitome of prog, and the first real prog group.

Edited by Genital Giant - December 04 2013 at 14:19
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Forum Moderator

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Utopia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12137
Post Options Post Options   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 12:51
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Padraic

"progressive rock music discographies from 8,327 bands & artists, 42,059 albums"

Any volunteers want to get started?
 
All depends how serious and willing you are!
 
The rest is easy by comparison!


I volunteer to help out if M@x decides to implement it (and if I'm still using the site then).

Multi-tagging albums has always been doable, I think, even though I have read people saying it was too hard since I came here.  It's not like they all need to be tagged, there's no hurry, every member could participate (or limit it to collabs and trusted forum members if necessary -- perhaps people with 100 plus posts), and we could still keep the master categories and genre teams as is.

If M@x were willing to bring in the progfreak system where all members can tag albums (system would log the users who tag them), I'd be fine doing tags for a couple thousand albums over a few months (others could add more tags to my tags or correct errors as they see them).  I'd say that we should still keep the master categories for bands/artists, and keep the genre teams, but just offer the opportunity for members to add tags to albums, using drop-down menus and using a limited number of set tags.  And every time someone does a review they might tag an album (wouldn't be much more effort than rating an album).  It wouldn't be much use to me, though, unless we also had a search function where we could do multi-tag album searches.  If it got abused, well, wouldn't be that big a deal.  I'd like to be able to search for an album that is multi-tagged, say, with psych/ folk/ jazz/ experimental, but then I can always use google and I have, to search for albums in a way that the results will work for me.

EDIT: And yes, I believe that King Crimson is very well-placed in the Eclectic Prog category.


Edited by Logan - December 04 2013 at 13:13
Back to Top
The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 29 2013
Location: Olympia, WA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2545
Post Options Post Options   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 12:32
Originally posted by DiamondDog

I don't see any contradiction in that - whatever band of musicians were brought together, with only Fripp as the constant - I'm sure it was a communal effort, or at least, could be. That doesn't change the fact that the band originally called King Crimson were no longer together, Fripp merely used the label as a selling tool for whatever projects he fancied at the time.

One way I think Crimso as a communal effort is demonstrated is that every version of the band made improvisation a part of their live shows/studio albums.  Beginning with Moonchild, to the horrible "blows" on Earthbound, to the amazing improvs of the '73/'74 band up through the Thrakattak album of 1996 improvs.  If Crimso was really an iron-fisted-Fripp-only band there's no way he would encourage or allow these improvs that rely on the quality of all musicians to ever be released.  Why give up that much control and risk the reputation of his band if it wasn't really a group effort?

I don't believe it was solely Fripp deciding to use the label as a selling tool as the '81 band was originally intending to call itself "Discipline" and actually played some shows under that name.  I believe I've read it was a group decision to take on the Crimso name even though they were uncomfortable with the expectations that would bring (playing the 70's repertoire, being compared to the '69 band, etc).  

Crimso's eclectic-ism made calling all incarnations of the band the same name logical LOL
I'm using the chicken to measure it.
Back to Top
Metalmarsh89 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 15 2013
Location: Oregon, USA
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1218
Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 10:30
Originally posted by DiamondDog

I don't see any contradiction in that - whatever band of musicians were brought together, with only Fripp as the constant - I'm sure it was a communal effort, or at least, could be. That doesn't change the fact that the band originally called King Crimson were no longer together, Fripp merely used the label as a selling tool for whatever projects he fancied at the time.


So anytime a band changes personnel or breaks up, they should develop a new name? That's what I'm inferring from this.
Back to Top
Metalmarsh89 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 15 2013
Location: Oregon, USA
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1218
Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 10:28
Originally posted by dr wu23

Originally posted by DiamondDog

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112

Before you guys go on and bash me about not really liking King Crimson's music let's think about this critically. I have been having this thought surrounding my mind. Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog? I do consider their work in the 1970s to be as eclectic as anyone but what about the rest of their career? I do not see any eclecticism in anything since Red in 1974.Step into this discussion to make your assertion about it. This is my assertion. I don't really consider them Eclectic Prog. What about you?

Agreeing with others who have said the same thing on here, I don't consider King Crimson to have had a career beyond the first album. Robert Fripp's career is another matter.
That's interesting;......there was a recent interview/article  with band members and Fripp and he clearly said that it was always a group effort and the sound changed because the band changed over time and Crimson was a sum total of whoever was in the band at the time. He strongly implied he was not the only one who decided what type of music they would play.
But then I suppose Bob could be telling tales.
Wink


I can believe that it was considered a group effort. I can't imagine the 80's King Crimson getting together only to do what Robert Fripp wanted to do. Levin, Bruford, and Belew were well established muscians, and probably wouldn't sign up for something like that.

Did Fripp ever have any input on lyrics? I know he never really wrote them, but did he ever edit them before they made it into the songs?
Back to Top
DiamondDog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Post Options Post Options   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 09:55
I don't see any contradiction in that - whatever band of musicians were brought together, with only Fripp as the constant - I'm sure it was a communal effort, or at least, could be. That doesn't change the fact that the band originally called King Crimson were no longer together, Fripp merely used the label as a selling tool for whatever projects he fancied at the time.
Back to Top
dr wu23 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4063
Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 09:36
Originally posted by DiamondDog

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112

Before you guys go on and bash me about not really liking King Crimson's music let's think about this critically. I have been having this thought surrounding my mind. Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog? I do consider their work in the 1970s to be as eclectic as anyone but what about the rest of their career? I do not see any eclecticism in anything since Red in 1974.Step into this discussion to make your assertion about it. This is my assertion. I don't really consider them Eclectic Prog. What about you?

Agreeing with others who have said the same thing on here, I don't consider King Crimson to have had a career beyond the first album. Robert Fripp's career is another matter.
That's interesting;......there was a recent interview/article  with band members and Fripp and he clearly said that it was always a group effort and the sound changed because the band changed over time and Crimson was a sum total of whoever was in the band at the time. He strongly implied he was not the only one who decided what type of music they would play.
But then I suppose Bob could be telling tales.
Wink
Et In Arcadia Ego
Back to Top
DiamondDog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Post Options Post Options   Quote DiamondDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 08:23
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112

Before you guys go on and bash me about not really liking King Crimson's music let's think about this critically. I have been having this thought surrounding my mind. Is King Crimson really Eclectic Prog? I do consider their work in the 1970s to be as eclectic as anyone but what about the rest of their career? I do not see any eclecticism in anything since Red in 1974.Step into this discussion to make your assertion about it. This is my assertion. I don't really consider them Eclectic Prog. What about you?

Agreeing with others who have said the same thing on here, I don't consider King Crimson to have had a career beyond the first album. Robert Fripp's career is another matter.
Back to Top
jayem View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Switzerland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 220
Post Options Post Options   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 17:58
Originally posted by progbethyname

Eclectic Prog for what the damn thing means can accurately be tied to King Crimson's sound first and for most

...and to Fripp's fondness for erudite wording. But we could also hear him say  "Er...Lalalala?" onstage; and to keep it simple, didn't he hate KC to be called "prog"?...

Prog Pillar. Dinosaur; Reference Prog. Eclectic Lalala...

Originally posted by aginor

^ pixie prog

"Pixie Prog" may very much help the newbies !!


I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)
Back to Top
Evolver View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover & JazzRock/Fusion Teams

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Mt. Molehill
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3678
Post Options Post Options   Quote Evolver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 17:15
Originally posted by M27Barney

Originally posted by TODDLER

Originally posted by Blacksword

Tricky prog.

They have slowly become one of my favourite bands. I like the way none of my friends can stand them. That's a sure sign they're doing something right..
LOL
Hm, I can see the attraction of such a reaction - I have a very strange acquaintance who has shunned all late 20th century technologies and now proudly states that his crackly 78's of American black (slave origination) recordings is truly "music of the soul" - His thirst to be in a very exclusive set of listening humanity has been leading him to that for the past 30 years....(he has never owned a CD/DVD player!! or listened to any digital media)Confused
Mind you KC is positively MASSIVE compared to such a niche....LOL
 
Make me think of
especially #2 in the article.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: DAC LAND
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5005
Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 17:01
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

LOLIntensity Prog. I like it! 
And while we're at it, why not change psych/space to swampy prog?


Yes and yes.

For The record though I think King Crimson are accurately classified here on PA. Eclectic Prog for what the damn thing means can accurately be tied to King Crimson's sound first and for most, but KC are other things at times. Very special band. The face of Prog I think.   
LIVE AND LET LIVE
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1500
Post Options Post Options   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 04:57
Originally posted by TODDLER

Originally posted by Blacksword

Tricky prog.

They have slowly become one of my favourite bands. I like the way none of my friends can stand them. That's a sure sign they're doing something right..
LOL
Hm, I can see the attraction of such a reaction - I have a very strange acquaintance who has shunned all late 20th century technologies and now proudly states that his crackly 78's of American black (slave origination) recordings is truly "music of the soul" - His thirst to be in a very exclusive set of listening humanity has been leading him to that for the past 30 years....(he has never owned a CD/DVD player!! or listened to any digital media)Confused
Mind you KC is positively MASSIVE compared to such a niche....LOL


Edited by M27Barney - November 19 2013 at 04:59
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
Back to Top
Neo-Romantic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 824
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neo-Romantic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 03:24

Originally posted by Dean

If there is a sub-genre we cannot shoe-horn them into I'd be disappointed - surely they could be squeezed into Zeuhl if we put enough effort into it.

Just pick a song with Belew's heavily processed vocals and Trey Gunn's bass style like ProzaKc Blues and you've got a potential case for it LOL

Round 2: fit them into the RPI category.



Edited by Neo-Romantic - November 19 2013 at 03:24
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32733
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 03:07
If there is a sub-genre we cannot shoe-horn them into I'd be disappointed - surely they could be squeezed into Zeuhl if we put enough effort into it.


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.69
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.828 seconds.