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Topic ClosedMeat eater, vegetarian or vegan?
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Poll Question: Which are you?
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34 [77.27%]
9 [20.45%]
1 [2.27%]
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Guldbamsen View Drop Down
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 05:56
We're basically like bears - only with different sleeping patterns, is that what you're saying?Clown
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:04
If we could not preserve food to last us through winter I'm sure we would sleep through most of it (I know I feel like that most days when the sun is low in the sky and the temperatures drop) so yes.
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Points: 34050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:05
More like rats ( primates and rodents are from the same evolution branch) along with flying lemurs and treshrews

Edited by aginor - January 11 2014 at 06:07
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If we could not preserve food to last us through winter I'm sure we would sleep through most of it (I know I feel like that most days when the sun is low in the sky and the temperatures drop) so yes.

I know how that feels. I was planning on getting out of the apartment, but the skies have formed an impenetrable thicket of grey substance, looking as seductive as the Danish gastronomic pride and joy, leverpostej:

Think I'll pass for now. Keep lying on my bed, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes and listen to music. Fine idea if I must say so myselfApprove
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:27
As for the poll: I only eat endangered species. Panda sweet breads are my fave along with ring tailed lemur cooked as Osso Buco.
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Points: 34050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:31
Mmmmmm leverposteij,

youve not lived before liver
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 06:42
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Mmmmmm leverposteij,

youve not lived before liver

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Points: 34050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 07:07
He knows how to prepare stews of liver, its to die for, the recepie


I love bull liver strw with cloudberries and rosen kål mmmmm
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 09:20
Vegetarian here, though mainly due to habit, not choice.
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Points: 5820 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 09:33
Omnivorous diet is best - just follow the Chinese example. As the Duke of Edingurgh once famously said at a World Wildlife Fund meeting back in 1986: "If it swims, and it's not a boat or a submarine...if it flies, and it's not an aeroplane or a helicopter...if it has legs, and it's not a table or a chair - then the Cantonese will eat it! LOL
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Points: 20468 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 09:53
Meat....but I prefer fish and chicken over beef and pork.
But as someone said above everything in moderation is an excellent policy.
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 09:58
Omnivorian.  It is our nature.
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 11:47
Dean, what exactly is wrong with the word "meat eater"? Surely it just means someone who eats meat? It's not necessarily a term that labels you as exclusively eating meat. I'm a whiskey drinker, but whiskey sure as hell isn't the only thing I drink

Let me just clarify why I'm a vegetarian:

There are living examples everywhere of the fact that we don't have to eat meat to survive. From this we can deduce that as a race, we kill animals unnecessarily, and while I don't have a problem with other people consuming meat, I don't particularly want any part in it. It's not a boycott either, it's a moral decision, the same sort of decision that I make when I don't read The Daily Mail or watch Fox News.
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 11:48
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Omnivorian.  It is our nature.


This isn't really an argument. So are sexism, racism, homophobia, cannibalism, theft, murder and rape. Morality fights the natural urge in almost all cases.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 12:38
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Dean, what exactly is wrong with the word "meat eater"? Surely it just means someone who eats meat? It's not necessarily a term that labels you as exclusively eating meat. I'm a whiskey drinker, but whiskey sure as hell isn't the only thing I drink 
I kinda thought I'd made that pretty clear in my post that the term "meat eater" is synonymous with carnivore (carn ~ meat; vore ~ devour) - when we call a lion a meat eater we mean it is a carnivore. Drinking whiskey is a matter of taste, abstaining from alcohol is not, the converse of whiskey drinker is not a teetotaller, your poll essentially polls whiskey drinkers with teetotallers, not with gin drinkers, tea drinkers and soda drinkers.

However, you can piss about playing with words as much as you like, you did not put an omnivore option in this poll but offered two non-meat lifestyle diet options, therefore you have given the phrase an implied negative connotation. (Why is this implied? because you made it so in the OP by inviting discussion on morality.

Argue as much as you like, carnivore, omnivore and herbivore are natural diets, vegetarianism and vegan-ism are not. (and your reply to Brian is just plain nutty btw)


Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


Let me just clarify why I'm a vegetarian:

There are living examples everywhere of the fact that we don't have to eat meat to survive. From this we can deduce that as a race, we kill animals unnecessarily, and while I don't have a problem with other people consuming meat, I don't particularly want any part in it. It's not a boycott either, it's a moral decision, the same sort of decision that I make when I don't read The Daily Mail or watch Fox News.
It is not a moral decision. I am not immoral nor am I amoral for eating meat, you are not morally any different from me for deciding to survive on a diet of vegetation, no better no worse. It is a decision of conscience perhaps but that does not always mean it is question of morality. 

Yes we can survive without eating meat - there are lots of food groups we do not need to eat to survive - chocolate, fruit, ice cream, potatoes, legumes, brassicas, mushrooms - remove any of them from your diet and you will survive. From this we can deduce that fermenting fruit sugars using a specific strain of fungi to produce intoxication liquor is unnecessary, though I don't have a problem with other people getting blotto on vino collapso... (the parody runs out here, I do partake of alcoholic beverages in moderation so I cannot claim that I don't particularly want any part in it, though I have no desire to get blotto). 


Edited by Dean - January 11 2014 at 12:40
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 12:59
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Dean, what exactly is wrong with the word "meat eater"? Surely it just means someone who eats meat? It's not necessarily a term that labels you as exclusively eating meat. I'm a whiskey drinker, but whiskey sure as hell isn't the only thing I drink 
I kinda thought I'd made that pretty clear in my post that the term "meat eater" is synonymous with carnivore (carn ~ meat; vore ~ devour) - when we call a lion a meat eater we mean it is a carnivore. Drinking whiskey is a matter of taste, abstaining from alcohol is not, the converse of whiskey drinker is not a teetotaller, your poll essentially polls whiskey drinkers with teetotallers, not with gin drinkers, tea drinkers and soda drinkers.

However, you can piss about playing with words as much as you like, you did not put an omnivore option in this poll but offered two non-meat lifestyle diet options, therefore you have given the phrase an implied negative connotation. (Why is this implied? because you made it so in the OP by inviting discussion on morality.

Argue as much as you like, carnivore, omnivore and herbivore are natural diets, vegetarianism and vegan-ism are not. (and your reply to Brian is just plain nutty btw)

I think we're just arguing semantics here, which never really resolves so let's move on... I'll change the option to omnivorous due to the fact that it may upset some people. rest assured though, the term was not meant to segregate anyone in any way.

Why exactly is the post nutty? Morality does combat natural behaviour. I'm open to arguments that counter that assumption however.

Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


Let me just clarify why I'm a vegetarian:

There are living examples everywhere of the fact that we don't have to eat meat to survive. From this we can deduce that as a race, we kill animals unnecessarily, and while I don't have a problem with other people consuming meat, I don't particularly want any part in it. It's not a boycott either, it's a moral decision, the same sort of decision that I make when I don't read The Daily Mail or watch Fox News.
It is not a moral decision. I am not immoral nor am I amoral for eating meat, you are not morally any different from me for deciding to survive on a diet of vegetation, no better no worse. It is a decision of conscience perhaps but that does not always mean it is question of morality. 

Yes we can survive without eating meat - there are lots of food groups we do not need to eat to survive - chocolate, fruit, ice cream, potatoes, legumes, brassicas, mushrooms - remove any of them from your diet and you will survive. From this we can deduce that fermenting fruit sugars using a specific strain of fungi to produce intoxication liquor is unnecessary, though I don't have a problem with other people getting blotto on vino collapso... (the parody runs out here, I do partake of alcoholic beverages in moderation so I cannot claim that I don't particularly want any part in it, though I have no desire to get blotto).

I'm not saying that anyone who eats meat is immoral at all. I do think it's the more moral option, which is why I have made that decision, but that does not mean that not being vegetarian would make a person immoral. Morality is big web of decision making that is so complicated I wouldn't agreeing with labeling any one person entirely immoral, but I would say that supporting the meat industry is an immoral act as it is killing innocent creatures that don't need to be killed. I can understand doing that if you have to eat meat because of a certain condition (I know a sax player like this), but most of us just eat meat because we like it. Is the systematic breeding and slaughter of a chicken really worth a nice taste? I personally don't think so. Some people think it is, and while I would disagree, I didn't make this poll to berate folks that eat meat, more for healthy debate on the issue.

Yes, most food groups we could probably do away with. But only the food groups under meat and fish require the slaughter of a sentient being, which is why I choose to leave them out of my diet. I don't really see why this is a problem.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 13:09
Carrots have feelings too.
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Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Carrots have feelings too.
Quite.
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 14:31
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

As for the poll: I only eat endangered species. Panda sweet breads are my fave along with ring tailed lemur cooked as Osso Buco.

LOL
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2014 at 16:24
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:



I think we're just arguing semantics here, which never really resolves so let's move on... I'll change the option to omnivorous due to the fact that it may upset some people. rest assured though, the term was not meant to segregate anyone in any way.
Claiming "arguing semantics" is not an intellectual "get out of jail free" card. If I say I dislike the term "meat eater" it is because it is inaccurate and incorrect, not because the semantic meaning is ambiguous or is a matter of interpretation. Even though we are discussing the meaning of a phrase, it is not an argument of semantics.
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


Why exactly is the post nutty? Morality does combat natural behaviour. I'm open to arguments that counter that assumption however.
Because your list of "crimes" are not equivalent, nor are they natural urges as you say they are - I have no natural urge to indulge in sexism, racism, homophobia, cannibalism, theft, murder or rape. You are creating a strawman argument.
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


I'm not saying that anyone who eats meat is immoral at all. I do think it's the more moral option, which is why I have made that decision, but that does not mean that not being vegetarian would make a person immoral. Morality is big web of decision making that is so complicated I wouldn't agreeing with labeling any one person entirely immoral, but I would say that supporting the meat industry is an immoral act as it is killing innocent creatures that don't need to be killed. I can understand doing that if you have to eat meat because of a certain condition (I know a sax player like this), but most of us just eat meat because we like it. Is the systematic breeding and slaughter of a chicken really worth a nice taste? I personally don't think so. Some people think it is, and while I would disagree, I didn't make this poll to berate folks that eat meat, more for healthy debate on the issue.
 
Unfortunately you are being judgemental, (not a criticism, just an observation) because you are claiming a moral superiority (the more moral option). By claiming it is more moral you are saying that eating meat is less moral by default. You are making an emotional argument and claiming it is a moral one. There is nothing wrong with not eating meat for emotional reasons, but that is not morality, practically every decision we make is an emotional one - like and dislike, love and hate - even after we've weighed up the logical and empirical pros and cons the ultimate decision will be a choice based upon emotion - and that's what makes us human, but that is not morality even if it feels like it should be.

Yes, intensive "farming" is bad - whether it is immoral is another question - it is not farming it is an industrial process and it should be stopped. We as consumers have the power to change it, and yes, boycotting meat is a way of doing that, so is only buying from ethical sources.
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Yes, most food groups we could probably do away with. But only the food groups under meat and fish require the slaughter of a sentient being, which is why I choose to leave them out of my diet.
There is a diet that does not involve the killing any living thing, sentient or not, this excludes the eating of any plant matter that is still connected to a living plant at the time of harvest such as fruit, tubers and leaves - this is a philosophical choice so those who practice this are called Fruitarian (as opposed to Frugivore). By extension there is also a diet that extends this to carrion. When making a philosophical choice you have made a philosophical decision on what constitutes sentience since you have chosen between vegetarianism and vegan-ism. 
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

 I don't really see why this is a problem.
 
It is not a problem. I never said it was a problem. You are making it into a problem all by yourself. I have not condemned anyone for being a vegetarian nor defended anyone who eats meat, I have proffered no judgemental or emotional opinions, merely stated the biological case. All I have stated is that omnivore is natural, vegetarianism is man-made. I have not claimed that either are unhealthy diets or that either are healthy diets - diets are only healthy when they are balanced and consumed in moderation. You are claiming the moral argument and I simply refute that it is about morality.
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