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Guldbamsen 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
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Points: 23098
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 Topic: Standing up for the 3 star rating
Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:13 |
3 stars means a good album on here, yet there are a lot of people who rate stuff they don't like with 3 stars. Hell, I've even come across folks who get their panties in a twist because their music was awarded with 3 stars by a reviewer, who they themselves asked for a write-up. Insane.... If we can't be honest about the music we're supposed to be writing about, what can we? And as an artist one should brace oneself for critique - even, or especially, if it's coming from a friend.
To some 'good' basically equates a 5 star rating, whereas something they don't particularly like gets 3 (there are of course also those irritating buggers who rate everything they haven't heard but think they know to suck with 1 star. Oh yes and then there are all those inane folks who think PA is all about the big competition: Who gets the gold on the archives? Music is sports). What do they do, when they encounter something that positively sends them flying through the room without socks and thermal g-string? They've already run out of stars.
I don't think I've ever written a 3 star review without it being a recommendation. Sure, often I bring out the age ol 3.5 stars, but I never round up. This problem (yes I see this as a problem - not because I put to much stock into ratings, but because almost everyone else do, and I'm a part of the site - now even more so since I metamorphosed into deputy janitor) is now viewable to everyone who reads the frontpage. Now it seems as if the only artists featured in reviews, that stay on the POPULAR ARTISTS (TOP 50, LAST 24H) : , are those who receive either a 4 or 5 star write-up. So even the readers seem to have bought into the notion that 3 stars simply isn't worth the mustard. So I thought it was about time to resurrect the honour, as well as the meaning, of the 3 star rating.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:19 |
For me 3 is like the perfect middle of the road album, one that is definitely not bad but that probably isn't really memorable or groundbreaking or perfectly crafted in any single way. A 3 star album doesn't hurt my collection but doesn't really brighten it much either. As life is always better with more music in it than with less, then of course it's always good to have even an average album in one's collection (something that can't be said of 2 or 1 start albums, which have a place in a collection only for a completionist or for the seeker of weird and bizarro things - count me in sometimes).
A fantastic album needs a 5, a great album a 4. A good album warrants a 3 and yes, 3 is enough to merit some recommendation.
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26133
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:22 |
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3 is the lowest you can rate an album you don't really like without someone getting mad at you.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13279
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:26 |
It is a difficult one, although it helps if one doesn't get too uptight about it. You will never change these things. For some, anything that is really good suddenly morphs into a "masterpiece", easily as overused as are the words overrated and underrated on this site.
One and five star ratings and reviews should be sparing. David is right that three stars means GOOD, and is not a slight at all, although it should be appreciated that some artists who send reviewers work do put them under quite a bit of pressure. I am rather sparing about accepting such submissions nowadays, I can't be bothered, to be honest.
The answer, as always, is that people who regularly use the site do pretty quickly get to know those reviewers who they can trust to give an honest, and decent, appraisal of an album.that is the important thing.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30845
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:39 |
 The T wrote:
A fantastic album needs a 5, a great album a 4. A good album warrants a 3 and yes, 3 is enough to merit some recommendation. |
As simple as that.
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bloodnarfer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 2162
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:42 |
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People seem to be overly concerned with influencing the rating an album gets. They drop 1 or 5 stars since it has a stonger pull on the rating the album gets. Another problem is on PA an album with a 3.0 looks REALLY bad so its difficult for some to give an album they enjoy 3 stars. Which is a shame because that really limits the granularity you get to work with when rating. I give albums that I enjoy and think are good 3 stars. (even though it 'hurts' the album's rating). I give 4 stars to great albums I would recommend to others and 5 to those that are the best of the best of my collection.
Edited by bloodnarfer - March 07 2014 at 11:47
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smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
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Points: 14169
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:49 |
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How it works in my eyes:
5 or 10 - Masterpiece
4.5 or 9 - Either what would be a masterpiece if it weren't for a certain track or a 4 or 8 that I'm especially affectionate of
4 or 8 - Doesn't disappoint; sold all the way through but not amazing
3.5 or 7 - Would be a four if it weren't for a track or two, or the production, or something like that
3 or 6 - Pretty flawed but has enough overall good material to be worth a buy.
2.5 or 5 - Pretty flawed and doesn't quite have enough good material to be worth a buy.
2 or 4 - Bad
1.5 or 3 - Bad and offensive
1 or 2 - Horrible
0.5 or 1 - Horrible and offensive
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 11:52 |
For me, 3 star is a good album, which can even be very enjoyable, not boring in any sense, but just not standing out from the other enjoyable albums. If I thought an album would be only so-so, I would give it 2 stars, not 3.
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26133
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:00 |
All hail to the Power of Three 
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
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Joined: April 05 2006
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Points: 32844
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:00 |
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This is far too simplistic -- there should be more variation, but for me it's something like
5 = I adore this album: utterly essential to my collection
4 = I love or really like this album: excellent addition to my collection
3 = I like this album: glad to know it/ happy to have it in my collection
2 = It's okay for my tastes, but I'm not a fan and could quite happily do without it in my collection
1 = I dislike this album, and would like a refund if I purchased it
And 6 stars:I adore this album, and it holds an an extra special and quite unique place in my collection (I"d give, for instance, Franco Leprino's Integrati ..Disintegrati this rating if such rating existed)
Sorry to go off on tangents, but I do wish the rating system at PA better reflected the subjectivity of ratings.
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LakeGlade12
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 179
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:13 |
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The problem here is actually very simple. On PA a 3 star album is good, on literally very other major rating site (Amazon, iTunes etc.) 3 stars is AVERAGE. So if I encounter a good album I am torn between the 3 star (what I should give on PA) and 4 star (what the general public EXPECT me to give) rating. This is not a easy problem to fix because we are hard wired to give good albums 4 stars instead of 3.
The best solution is to allow half star ratings. That will cause people to give good albums 3.5 stars and so rating inflation will be reduced. Most of my 5 star albums are 4.5 star quality but I simply cannot bring myself to give them 4. I expect most people think the same way. So if the 4.5 option was introduced I would demote most of my masterpieces and grade inflation would reduce. It would also mean that a 5 star rating really is a masterpiece instead of very good. Metal Music Archives allows half stars, so why not PA!?
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
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Points: 26133
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:15 |
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^ I think you're on to something there. "Good" and "Average" are not the same. I've had the same issues run through my head and have not even noticed it. Good observation.
Edited by HolyMoly - March 07 2014 at 12:16
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Neu!mann
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 21 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 688
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:21 |
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If I may extend the argument to an even lower rung of the rating ladder...
My own pet peeve is a misreading of the 2-star rating, which may not always represent a piece of music less worthy than something with more stars. Sometimes, yes: the album is just a 2-star dog. But elsewhere the "collectors/fans only" tag could mark a rare masterpiece for a very narrow fan base...sort of a cult 5-star effort, in a manner of speaking.
To me, music shouldn't be judged on a simple "poor-good-better-best" continuum. The next thing you know we'll be settling for an idiotic "thumbs up, thumbs down" thing. I sometimes like the ambivalence of those 2- and 3-star reviews, which typically require more time and thought to justify.
Three cheers for gray areas in an increasingly black-and-white world!
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:37 |
5*: manages to affect me in ways that other albums haven't.4.5*: A sublimely excellent album 4*: A very good/tasty album, no doubt about it 3.5*: A very good album with character, but also with a blemish 3*: A good album but lacking in something 2.5*: Very mediocre, not really worth listening to 2*: I probably should have bought the new Sun Kil Moon instead 1.5*: I am really regretting this 1*: This is a rather low point in my life 0.5*: I will pay not to have listened to this album
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LakeGlade12
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 179
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:41 |
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Thanks for the complement HolyMoly! When I think about it if I was to follow the PA guidelines strictly I would have to give an average album 2 stars! As "good" mostly means above average the only option left is 2 stars. But if I started giving every average album 2 stars I would be accused of bashing and get in trouble!
So we have a real problem here, the PA guidelines don't actually make a lot of sense. As Neu!mann pointed out the 2 star rating is a can of worms in its own right. Until we fix this problem so that the guidelines make common sense reviewers like myself will make up their own rules (there is no way I am giving an average album 2 stars!) and we have inconsistency.
Edited by LakeGlade12 - March 07 2014 at 12:42
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Polymorphia
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Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:52 |
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I think it's worth noting that some of the ratings are responses to other reviews. For instance, if somebody gives three stars to an album and says it was really boring and not worth listening to, another reviewer who thought it was good with a few flaws may feel the urge to respond with a four star review instead of an honest three star because people may take it to mean the same thing as the rating of that other person who didn't care for it. Vicious cycle is the name of the music industry.
Edited by Polymorphia - March 07 2014 at 12:53
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 13:11 |
Logan wrote:
This is far too simplistic -- there should be more variation, but for me it's something like
5 = I adore this album: utterly essential to my collection
4 = I love or really like this album: excellent addition to my collection
3 = I like this album: glad to know it/ happy to have it in my collection
2 = It's okay for my tastes, but I'm not a fan and could quite happily do without it in my collection
1 = I dislike this album, and would like a refund if I purchased it
Sorry to go off on tangents, but I do wish the rating system at PA better reflected the subjectivity of ratings.
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I agree with this rating system. It maps out the reasons behind my ratings at least.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 14:13 |
I appreciate the discussion here folks - it's been a pleasure reading through them. I realise my main goal with this thread was to shine a light on those who insist on inflating the system (or perhaps do so without ever thinking about it) - a system that relies on ratings, that I may not entirely agree with but still have the pleasure of safeguarding. I have recently written about quite a number of 5 star albums - albums I've been dying to review, and albums that have stood the test of time for me. Masterpieces of a certain genre - and masterpieces to my ears. For a long while I was thinking about spreading them out among all those inferior releases in my collection, but in the end it was something I needed to get off my back. But when you take a look at some of the 5 star write ups of the frontpage, they read as brand new and fresh offerings conveyed by someone who hasn't finished chewing on the meal. Sure there are times, albeit very rare times, when one encounters majestic power inside a short time frame with a record, but with a lot of reviewers these seem to happen more than often. Personally, I'd find it very difficult to award 10 albums from 2013 with the full monty - simply because I feel a need to submerse myself more in the music before awarding it with the ultimate reward.
Conversely, I would hate to see everybody rearranging their approach to some kind of uniform sameness. I love our differences, but I don't care too much for dishonesty - or perhaps more appropriately: incoherence between what's written in the review and what the verdict says (unless people are openly trying to be objective. Case in point: Micky's infamous Dream Theater review, where he absolutely loathes the music but recognises the importance of it). It is (almost) possible to be objective in a review.
Btw, I've said this many a times: I too believe the half star option should be implemented, but in the end I don't pull the trigger on such a decision.
Thanks again for the replies  |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Mormegil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2010
Location: NE PA
Status: Offline
Points: 6470
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 14:51 |
Logan wrote:
This is far too simplistic -- there should be more variation, but for me it's something like
5 = I adore this album: utterly essential to my collection
4 = I love or really like this album: excellent addition to my collection
3 = I like this album: glad to know it/ happy to have it in my collection
2 = It's okay for my tastes, but I'm not a fan and could quite happily do without it in my collection
1 = I dislike this album, and would like a refund if I purchased it
And 6 stars:I adore this album, and it holds an an extra special and quite unique place in my collection (I"d give, for instance, Franco Leprino's Integrati ..Disintegrati this rating if such rating existed)
Sorry to go off on tangents, but I do wish the rating system at PA better reflected the subjectivity of ratings.
< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">
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Well said - I rate this post a 5. :-)
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Welcome to the middle of the film.
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LakeGlade12
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 179
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Posted: March 07 2014 at 15:41 |
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Ok, after a bit of thinking I have come up with a more sensible and detailed ranking system.
5 stars. A masterpiece of Progressive Rock music. This album is virtually flawless and is universally essential for every fan of the entire genre.
4.5 stars. An extremely high quality album/inspired album which has very few flaws. This album is essential to all fans of this sub-genre/artist and very highly recommended to other Prog fans.
4 stars. A very good album which can be recommended to every Prog fan. While this album is flawed, it should still be highly enjoyable to listen to and have lasting appeal.
3.5 stars. A good album that can be recommended to people who may not be fans of the artist/sub-genre. While there may be significant problems with the album it should not prevent the listener from appreciating it.
3 stars. A average/slightly above average album which is only recommended to fans of the artist or sub genre.
2.5 stars. A below album which is only recommended for completionists. The flaws present on this album should be enough to prevent the listener from enjoying a large quantity of the release.
2 stars. A weak album which should not be bought except for very specific reasons/die hard fans.
1.5 stars. A poor album which has too many weaknesses to be worth buying.
1 stars. A terrible album with no redeeming features worth mentioning. The reviewer must extremely dislike/hate this album.
I like the 6 star rating, but I would only allow each reviewer to give this rating 5 times (and it must be a review, not a rating). So if you see a 6 star review you know this is one of their favourite albums of all time.
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Standing up for the 3 star rating
