Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The longevity of prog (and rock) music
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The longevity of prog (and rock) music

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
TODDLER View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 2838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The longevity of prog (and rock) music
    Posted: March 25 2014 at 18:23
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^  How much money did prog rock bands make for the labels, though?  It seems many of them did not necessarily push millions of albums off the shelves even if they were popular as live acts.  Somebody had shared a link to read a book on Fripp in the thread on Moonchild and it's mentioned there that Fripp used his bare-bones Frippertronics tour to promote Exposure.  The album sold more than the label had expected while the loss Fripp made on the Frippertronics tour was, according to his claim, far less than a typical tour organised for big bands.  If the extant way of doing things in the 70s had become too bloated, I can somewhat put in perspective the industry's determination to replace it with something else that they thought was leaner.  Not that they were necessarily right about it but otherwise what explains an industry-wide plot to sideline a genre of music that was making money for them?

From what I recall on a personal level..is that specifically the underground Prog bands of the 70's were NOT selling enough albums ...which!...explains why Nektar albums were often found in "cut-out bins" in chain stores across the U.S. However...the industry was not willing to go the distance by substituting the lack of albums sales with advertisement and overall good promotion to the consumer. To interest the consumer based on the tactful business concept of making the unaware curious. The industry did this for certain bands who DID NOT sell considerably well at first..yet were either pets of the record companies or simply gained the interest of an important staff member who contacted the right sources to promote them on television or radio. They obviously didn't promote every outstanding band that way and it worried me. I often wondered about ulterior motives or what was on their personal agenda.
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: DAC LAND
Status: Offline
Points: 5188
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 12:13
Also. For the record. Prog rock is in great shape right now and longevity is largely present.
I have no doubt Prog will continue to live...at least in my lifetime.
Another 60 years? You bet. :)
Ok. It's time. Lets get Fields Of The Nephilim on PA. They rightfully belong here.
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: DAC LAND
Status: Offline
Points: 5188
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 12:09
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


A few years ago, whilst talking to a female friend of mine, something hit home with me. We were sitting in some park drinking white wine and eating fruit (yeah I know playaTongue), and we started talking about music. I quickly realised just far removed she was from my listening habits, as most women tend to be, but then she told me about getting goosebumps and chills down her spine from a Lady Gaga song. Oh my word! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but tried acting all cool about it. I may even have made a somewhat badly timed joke about it, but it was just because I found her words so....erm...wrong perhaps? She was experiencing music in much the same manner as I was - she was a complete music nut who talked to similar people on the internet about whatever new and exciting thing was on the horizon. 
After that experience, I left all of my preservations about "bad" music behind. Bad/beautiful music is, and will always be, in the ear of the beholder. All the other sh*te is merely condescending non-sense from people who think they're smart and specially enlightened because they listen to prog/classical/jazz/trance/polka you name it.

Perceptive post certainly. Some of the most intelligent people I know have no affinity for what esoteric music may or may not have to offer. Several years ago I played a qualified psychiatrist The End by the Doors re the oedipal aspects of the lyrics etc. His response was that although he was intrigued and slightly unnerved by the music, the lyrics were in his estimation those of a dilettante undergraduate who confuses the familiar with the familial. That's not to undermine the worth of Jim Morrison or the Doors as musicians of course, but our response to the messenger is always much more illuminating than the message.BTW don't diss da polka bomb beeatchCool



Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


A few years ago, whilst talking to a female friend of mine, something hit home with me. We were sitting in some park drinking white wine and eating fruit (yeah I know playaTongue), and we started talking about music. I quickly realised just far removed she was from my listening habits, as most women tend to be, but then she told me about getting goosebumps and chills down her spine from a Lady Gaga song. Oh my word! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but tried acting all cool about it. I may even have made a somewhat badly timed joke about it, but it was just because I found her words so....erm...wrong perhaps? She was experiencing music in much the same manner as I was - she was a complete music nut who talked to similar people on the internet about whatever new and exciting thing was on the horizon. 
After that experience, I left all of my preservations about "bad" music behind. Bad/beautiful music is, and will always be, in the ear of the beholder. All the other sh*te is merely condescending non-sense from people who think they're smart and specially enlightened because they listen to prog/classical/jazz/trance/polka you name it.

Perceptive post certainly. Some of the most intelligent people I know have no affinity for what esoteric music may or may not have to offer. Several years ago I played a qualified psychiatrist The End by the Doors re the oedipal aspects of the lyrics etc. His response was that although he was intrigued and slightly unnerved by the music, the lyrics were in his estimation those of a dilettante undergraduate who confuses the familiar with the familial. That's not to undermine the worth of Jim Morrison or the Doors as musicians of course, but our response to the messenger is always much more illuminating than the message.BTW don't diss da polka bomb beeatchCool


I love the way you both are carrying out your thoughts on this matter. It seems to be as Dave said it, 'music is truly in the ear if the beholder.' Call it what you will, but subjectively is largely present when were dealing with other people's thoughts, feelings and perceptions when one hears a certain piece of music.
Goosebumps to lady gaga...Oedipal lyric references misinterpreted....it is all a matter of a single individual's feelings.
Personally I can sympathize with a lot of music tastes/understandings of many Individuals, but do I totally understand why they feel/think that way? Absolutely not. Goosebumps to lady gaga I could never understand.    
Seriously though. Very well thought out, lucid posts gentlemen. Nice to see/read.

Also and more importantly I really have stopped focusing and critiquing what others around me really dig in music. I figured out its really not fair to that person. I am more focused on myself and I am very thankful for what I have discovered and love. I can't force people to love what I love in music, but recently I did concert my brother to Dream Theater and he just loves them now, so I took him to the Massey hall show this month and I looked over at him and he looked so happy. That, I have to admit, made me feel good and I believe intelligence has nothing to do with it, it's just exposure.
Ok. It's time. Lets get Fields Of The Nephilim on PA. They rightfully belong here.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 5839
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 11:31
I have also read a 'story' (I don't know how reliable it is, hence the quotes) that Renaissance never wanted to release Northern Lights as a single and the label insisted on it because they said they needed to make some money to recoup their losses.  That seems to fit in with Fripp's views on the music industry as it was in the 70s.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 5839
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 11:29
^^^  How much money did prog rock bands make for the labels, though?  It seems many of them did not necessarily push millions of albums off the shelves even if they were popular as live acts.  Somebody had shared a link to read a book on Fripp in the thread on Moonchild and it's mentioned there that Fripp used his bare-bones Frippertronics tour to promote Exposure.  The album sold more than the label had expected while the loss Fripp made on the Frippertronics tour was, according to his claim, far less than a typical tour organised for big bands.  If the extant way of doing things in the 70s had become too bloated, I can somewhat put in perspective the industry's determination to replace it with something else that they thought was leaner.  Not that they were necessarily right about it but otherwise what explains an industry-wide plot to sideline a genre of music that was making money for them?
Back to Top
TODDLER View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 2838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 11:12
In 78' and 79' ...the band Nektar used to play around the corner from us at a place called Alexander's. We just COMPLETELY lost control. I mean to say...that loads of kids hopping from 1 venue to the next ..were amazed by Nektar and yet the band never seemed to get the proper backing. Although they were signed to Passport records , they just needed a little more promotion. I mean to say..and for real..that people were crazy over this band. And..I can only ..unfortunately..speak for the east coast of the U.S. It just takes some reading between the lines to understand what precisely was going on here with the industry. I had close ties with the Rock music scene which was very huge in the theatre circuit between 76' (which was when I started) and 84' . Johnny Winter, Rick Derringer, Ian Hunter, Rossington/Collins band and so many others who played "Hard Rock", "Blues Rock", "Boogie", had been shifted from stadiums/huge halls to theatres. Except keep one thought in mind and you will just have to believe me. It was 10 times worse for Prog. The reason...I don't know. I felt depressed over the issue. Everywhere I performed..the DJ's were anti-Prog and I assume that the promoters did not advice conflict from respected DJ's who had worthy positions in radio. They killed Prog. Happy the Man had not one chance to prove themselves beyond the theatre circuit when DJ's were giving their albums away or letting them collect dust instead of playing them over a huge sound system.
Back to Top
TODDLER View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 2838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:50
I knew somehow between the years of 1978 and 1983 that people in society desired new music. Prog was fading and regarding the industry, I felt that their harsh acts were a bit premeditated. One story I should tell: We were on a bus , very delirious from road travel, and began to make fun of Jerry Vale songs. We were the opening act for Vale that night and so we pulled up to Club Bene and saw that a staff member was taking down the sign which read Renaissance. At first we didn't believe it and we were very stupied ..asking questions which in return annoyed the corporation. Most of us were in our early 20's in 1981 and were truly shocked to see this band play small venues. As I said before..the balance of profit, the inhouse decisions, were confusing. They were confusing to us because we witnessed the theatres packed to see Prog ...yet these bands were no longer performing in the larger venues. Most musicians I knew assumed that it was a bit premeditated and simply because...if a certain style of music performed by a tight unit...packed theatres then there would be no reason or cause to not continue placing them in the larger venues and as an addition...giving them more support/promotion.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:36
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

 ... 
I respect your thoughts, and of course Picasso's Cubism, but as i've said - that style can be of such a great timeless spirit to many people, but to be honest not for me.
 
The only thing you want to grab from it, is the harshness of the time and place. It always affects people and what they do and how they feel.
 
For the same similar ciscumstances, I also state that ITCOTCK is also one of the best snapshots of 1968/69 London that will ever be seen in any history book, movie or film!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, instead of paying for a guru or church or social program!



www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:35
A person does not have to be intelligent to listen to classical, prog or jazz. An intelligent person can be one without listening to any of these three. 

But the music itself, you have to at least be willing to pay more attention and focus on the music itself. That requires not necessarily intelligence but a specific attitude towards music that usually some people have. 

On the other hand, you can be a genius and (for some odd reason)listen to Lil' Wayne. You don't have to be a genius to manufacture that music though.  
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:32
Originally posted by Isa Isa wrote:

.
Whoever you are, just wanted to say I love your avatar. 
Back to Top
Rick Robson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 03 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 1249
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Robson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

...
Requires much more talent than smartness for making truly good music and/or being creative. I don't see it as a pre-requisite for an artist in order to have good taste in any kind of art. Just an example, Picasso was a very intelligent and smart painter, besides talented, of course, but because of his always "a step forward" vision that time he created a brand new style Cubism in his paintings - this style has a quite bad taste and i don't enjoy these paintings at all.
 
All you have to remember is, and you have to picture this, a child looking out the window and seeing nothing but carnage. For a child it might not make sense, and in this case, this is the power and strength in "Guernica", as it is all slashed, cut and killed in pieces. Every war is like that and the Spanish Civil War was bad and also had other artists involved. Check out Garcia Lorca and some of his contemporaries. Not very pleasant, and all of them crying and hoping for a better day that many of them would never have a chance to see it!
 
That an art scene survived that carnage is a miracle! Same thing with so much other arts during WW1 and WW2, when it was fashionable to bomb the history of it all, because sometimes it represented something that the new "regime" didn't like, or want!
 
What Pablo did, took a lot more than "courage" ... and this is the part of ALL progressive artists within their own time, and how "important" they can be ... something that we have a hard time grasping a perspective on.
 
You are looking at Picasso's work with today's eyes and you are not seeing the horror, the horror, the horror ... that a child can see, and how damaging it can be to their sensibility!
 
Please be more compassionate about some arts. Most of them are not frivolous exercises in not giving a damn or making some money. Most of them are a TRUE SNAPSHOT of history. This is the reason why so much of the stuff discussed at PA is not a good discussion about the music, instead of favorites. You are not factoring their itty bitty role in the time and place ... because today, so much of it all is so meaningless and empty by comparison, that you and I lose the ability to see more, and otherwise.

 
I respect your thoughts, and of course Picasso's Cubism, but as i've said - that style can be of such a great timeless spirit to many people, but to be honest not for me.
"Going on means going far. Going far means returning. (Tao Te Ching)"
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 7675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:20
Originally posted by Isa Isa wrote:



As a younger person I'm quite tired


Damn straight, shame on you, jaded is my departmentLOL
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 5839
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:16
Originally posted by Prog 74 Prog 74 wrote:

Intelligence may not necessarily be a prerequisite for Prog, Classical or Jazz or any music for that matter, but it certainly does help.  I agree that talent is the real factor between a great musician and a not-so-great one.  You can be very intelligent and be a lousy musician.  However, it's hard for me to accept that someone who is intelligent and creative would spend their time listening to Lil Wayne.  Most people I know who I consider to be intelligent want to be challenged.  They want more thought-provoking music, movies & books.  Perhaps it is elitist, but I don't believe it.  What you listen to does influence you though. 
 
There was a McDonalds in Australia that had trouble with young people hanging out in the parking lot causing trouble and playing loud hip-hop music.  Their solution?  They set up some speakers outside and began playing classical music and opera.  The kids left.  LOL     

Well, we don't all of us have time to explore each and every facet of our life deeply, right?  Music is a passion for me but I make my living as an accountant.  Given what I know of tax, I could legitimately wonder why otherwise intelligent people would not pay enough attention to such an important aspect of their lives which affects them financially.  I am pretty lazy when it comes to gadgets.  It's not that I am too dumb to figure out why such and such phone would be much better for my needs, I just don't feel the need to nor want to pay up so much money for it.  I am happy with a few basic apps, just like intelligent people might be happy with cookie cutter pop music.  There's nothing wrong with them if they do.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 7675
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:10
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A few years ago, whilst talking to a female friend of mine, something hit home with me. We were sitting in some park drinking white wine and eating fruit (yeah I know playaTongue), and we started talking about music. I quickly realised just far removed she was from my listening habits, as most women tend to be, but then she told me about getting goosebumps and chills down her spine from a Lady Gaga song. Oh my word! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but tried acting all cool about it. I may even have made a somewhat badly timed joke about it, but it was just because I found her words so....erm...wrong perhaps? She was experiencing music in much the same manner as I was - she was a complete music nut who talked to similar people on the internet about whatever new and exciting thing was on the horizon. 
After that experience, I left all of my preservations about "bad" music behind. Bad/beautiful music is, and will always be, in the ear of the beholder. All the other sh*te is merely condescending non-sense from people who think they're smart and specially enlightened because they listen to prog/classical/jazz/trance/polka you name it.


Perceptive post certainly. Some of the most intelligent people I know have no affinity for what esoteric music may or may not have to offer. Several years ago I played a qualified psychiatrist The End by the Doors re the oedipal aspects of the lyrics etc. His response was that although he was intrigued and slightly unnerved by the music, the lyrics were in his estimation those of a dilettante undergraduate who confuses the familiar with the familial. That's not to undermine the worth of Jim Morrison or the Doors as musicians of course, but our response to the messenger is always much more illuminating than the message.

BTW don't diss da polka bomb beeatchCool
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:00
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A few years ago, whilst talking to a female friend of mine, something hit home with me. We were sitting in some park drinking white wine and eating fruit (yeah I know playaTongue), and we started talking about music. I quickly realised just far removed she was from my listening habits, as most women tend to be, but then she told me about getting goosebumps and chills down her spine from a Lady Gaga song. Oh my word!...
 
 
Girlfriend in my college days used to say that Led Zeppelin was really sexual for her. She also thought that Rickie Lee Jones had a strong vibe that women also had, in the first 3 albums. She also thought Bonnie Raitt was the same.
 
I had no issue with that, but I have to tell you that I have come to seriously appreciate the "urgency" (for lack of another word) in Rickie's first albums, as if trying hard to enjoy and appreciate the moment, and then hearing Bonnie just about creaming the vinyl in her very own sleepy refrains!
 
Led Z was always one of my favorite bands, and I had many of their bootlegs at one time (none now ... bummer!), as they were by far, one of the best live bands ever.
 
But her and I did not "clash" on music, as she was into dancing and knew something about interpreting music, albeit she wanted the cardboard musical theater which ended up not being interested in her! And there went her life!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, instead of paying for a guru or church or social program!



www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 5839
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 10:00
@Isa:  I think it was just the way you put it that perhaps made it across as too elitist.  I have seen people pretend to listen to classical music, so I don't think it necessarily has to do with intelligence.  However, the notion of accepting a certain amount of 'musicality' in music is something that the industry has steadily tried to water down.  When Beatles succeeded, they let the genie out of the bottle but within two decades or so, the industry began to control again.  We have come to a point where the mere presence of an instrumental interlude within a song could make a lot of people groan.  I remember that not so long ago, it was popular enough to be Grammy award winning stuff.  I have a faint hope that the success of 21 may turn the tide but I am not holding my breath.
Back to Top
Prog 74 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 16 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog 74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 09:58
Intelligence may not necessarily be a prerequisite for Prog, Classical or Jazz or any music for that matter, but it certainly does help.  I agree that talent is the real factor between a great musician and a not-so-great one.  You can be very intelligent and be a lousy musician.  However, it's hard for me to accept that someone who is intelligent and creative would spend their time listening to Lil Wayne.  Most people I know who I consider to be intelligent want to be challenged.  They want more thought-provoking music, movies & books.  Perhaps it is elitist, but I don't believe it.  What you listen to does influence you though. 
 
There was a McDonalds in Australia that had trouble with young people hanging out in the parking lot causing trouble and playing loud hip-hop music.  Their solution?  They set up some speakers outside and began playing classical music and opera.  The kids left.  LOL     
Back to Top
Isa View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 26 2009
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 145
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 09:51
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



Originally posted by Prog 74 Prog 74 wrote:

I think we can agree that rock music's peak years were roughly between 1965 - 1975.  Artists were given the freedom in the studio to virtually do as they pleased and this was encouraged by the record companies.  Music fans bought these experimental and progressive records and radio stations played them around the clock.  Warner Brothers famously signed the Grateful Dead and allowed them to be themselves.  They wisely did not try to "reign" them in and turn them into something more mainstream.  The more original and creative you were the more likely you would be signed and promoted by the record companies.  By the late 70s that began to change.  The music business became a business first and foremost.  Like any business it's aim was to make money and the best way to make loads of money in the music business was to sign bands that had mass appeal.  The more appealing you were the more likely you would have a top 10 hit.  MTV furthered the situation by saying you couldn't merely sound appealing you had to look appealing too.  A hairy, aging band like Jethro Tull would never get a video played if you were judged solely on "looks".  Creativity was stifled.  Wanting to venture beyond the standard 3-4 minute pop song structure was strongly discouraged.  Prog became a joke to many.  A few great prog bands have boldly defied those trends, but in order to survive it needed to go underground where is still exists today.  It's doubtful prog will ever again attain the popularity it had in the early 70s.  It can be done, but the now struggling music business needs to reverse it's stance on creativity & experimentalism.  The Flower Kings should be on the Grammys instead of just Beyonce, Macklemore or Taylor Swift.  Am I truly believe that any of those artists had a more creative, more imaginative album than Desolation Rose?  Absolutely not.  We need to stop dumbing down everything and instead encourage people to want to think and to learn.  Truly good music, be it classical or prog or jazz, requires a certain degree of intelligence that many people find intimidating.  Being smart, being creative, being different are what I find to be truly appealing and the music business should as well. 
I do take on board your remarks about an industry that has to adapt to a rapidly changing world but the red part is elitist self serving bollocks of the worst kind. The truth you
refer to is the one where your tastes and values are reflected in the
marketplace as some sort of vindicated litmus test of a meritocracy. The
money men who delivered the music of the Prog artists of the early 70's
to fans were no different to the money men we have today i.e.
businessmen will only invest in a phenomenon if they think they can get a
worthwhile return on their investment. They recognised at that time
that the youthful demographic was receptive to experimentation, risk
taking and eclecticism and more importantly, were prepared to direct
their increased spending power on same. Smart people study markets and
target perceived needs accordingly. Things have certainly changed
considerably in the interim and artists can now market, distribute and
promote themselves via the internet. This is probably a good thing but
given the inexhaustibly vast amount of music consumers are asked to make
an informed decision about they naturally find this intimidating.
Intelligence has nothing to do with responding positively to what you like.
I know loads of smart, creative and fiercely independent people who
care not a jot for classical, Prog or Jazz (on Planet Prog 74 there are
just 3 types of music right? you have to be kidding, otherwise you
should be hoisted by your own petard - how can being different be
anything other than a prevailing minority demographic? yet you want the
music business to expect viability will result in what is by definition
a niche market?) The only way you can achieve a marketplace that
mirrors your values is by interventionist and subsidized means, and yes
that's the sort of Soviet era suppression of democracy that I like to
think we both find repugnant.



Of course the greatest sin of our era is to have any whiff of an elitist attitude, right? ;)

As a younger person I'm quite tired of the logical fallacy of artistic relativism that old dofers from the 60s keep shoving down our throats, and then wondering why the arts are losing funding from institutions. While I do disagree with the asserted "intellectual" elitism, I wholeheartedly agree with the point of music being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator for the musically uneducated masses. Almost no one is listening to the Jonas Bros. anymore, just as no one will listen to Cyrus in a few years, because there is just too little substance to it, whilst tons of young people are still listening to Rush and Yes, just as there are tons of young people still listening to Beethoven and John Coltrane. If those who wish to point at this pretty significant Elephant in the room are called elitist, than so be it.
The human heart longs for that which is true, good, and beautiful. Timeless music is never without them.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 09:51
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

...
Requires much more talent than smartness for making truly good music and/or being creative. I don't see it as a pre-requisite for an artist in order to have good taste in any kind of art. Just an example, Picasso was a very intelligent and smart painter, besides talented, of course, but because of his always "a step forward" vision that time he created a brand new style Cubism in his paintings - this style has a quite bad taste and i don't enjoy these paintings at all.
 
All you have to remember is, and you have to picture this, a child looking out the window and seeing nothing but carnage. For a child it might not make sense, and in this case, this is the power and strength in "Guernica", as it is all slashed, cut and killed in pieces. Every war is like that and the Spanish Civil War was bad and also had other artists involved. Check out Garcia Lorca and some of his contemporaries. Not very pleasant, and all of them crying and hoping for a better day that many of them would never have a chance to see it!
 
That an art scene survived that carnage is a miracle! Same thing with so much other arts during WW1 and WW2, when it was fashionable to bomb the history of it all, because sometimes it represented something that the new "regime" didn't like, or want!
 
What Pablo did, took a lot more than "courage" ... and this is the part of ALL progressive artists within their own time, and how "important" they can be ... something that we have a hard time grasping a perspective on.
 
You are looking at Picasso's work with today's eyes and you are not seeing the horror, the horror, the horror ... that a child can see, and how damaging it can be to their sensibility!
 
Please be more compassionate about some arts. Most of them are not frivolous exercises in not giving a damn or making some money. Most of them are a TRUE SNAPSHOT of history. This is the reason why so much of the stuff discussed at PA is not a good discussion about the music, instead of favorites. You are not factoring their itty bitty role in the time and place ... because today, so much of it all is so meaningless and empty by comparison, that you and I lose the ability to see more, and otherwise.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, instead of paying for a guru or church or social program!



www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Site and Forum Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: 42
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 09:49
A few years ago, whilst talking to a female friend of mine, something hit home with me. We were sitting in some park drinking white wine and eating fruit (yeah I know playaTongue), and we started talking about music. I quickly realised just far removed she was from my listening habits, as most women tend to be, but then she told me about getting goosebumps and chills down her spine from a Lady Gaga song. Oh my word! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but tried acting all cool about it. I may even have made a somewhat badly timed joke about it, but it was just because I found her words so....erm...wrong perhaps? She was experiencing music in much the same manner as I was - she was a complete music nut who talked to similar people on the internet about whatever new and exciting thing was on the horizon. 
After that experience, I left all of my preservations about "bad" music behind. Bad/beautiful music is, and will always be, in the ear of the beholder. All the other sh*te is merely condescending non-sense from people who think they're smart and specially enlightened because they listen to prog/classical/jazz/trance/polka you name it.


Edited by Guldbamsen - March 25 2014 at 09:50
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.