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SteveG 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20513
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 Posted: July 12 2014 at 10:45 |
 Gerinski wrote:
With the sort of music which the industry tries to sell to the audiences nowadays, it's a real mystery that Prog did not become popular again. |
Complicated observation G, as one that was more on the music side of the business it's simply a matter of placing a current style within the reaches of younger audiences. With the record business basically going under after the Napster and pirating craze it's even more remote, but musical styles and trends do come around for many unknown and also known reasons such as the economic crunch and political divides in the US resulting in someone like Tom Morello picking up an acoustic guitar and recording and performing his own protest music, so anything is possible and you can never count a musical genre out.
Edited by SteveG - July 12 2014 at 10:46
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 10:36 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">Two questions, though:</span>
ExittheLemming wrote:
This is why the lyrics to DSOTM are so brilliant i.e. some very unpalatable and complex ideas are presented in a way that practically anyone can understand irrespective of their intellect. |
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">Death, wasting time, the root of all evil?</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Unpalatable and complex? Where? Isn't it the absence of those qualities that actually makes the album an accessible piece of work?</span> ... and ...
ExittheLemming wrote:
It's also quite telling that the music on this benchmark Prog album is predominately simple both rhythmically and harmonically. |
Didn't they use some slightly unconventional chords on some of the songs on DSOTM ?
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The acceptance and/or realisation that there is no
spiritual consolation afforded to mankind, that mental health is often
exploited as a controlling mechanism by our rulers and that our labours
on this earth are ultimately futile is certainly unpalatable and complex
for most listeners in my book anyway. Funny thing about DSOTM for me is
that the Beatles may have 'turned us on' but Floyd managed to deliver
some of the worst news we'll ever hear in our lives without appearing to
turn us off. How does 'some slightly unconventional chords' (and we can
safely throw in the famous riff in 7/4) equate to ripping up the
harmonic and metric rulebook?I also think the left/right brain
dichotomy is getting really tired now fellas. This was a resilient myth
perpetrated by the work of Nobel prize winning neuropsychologist Roger
W.
Sperry which has now been widely disproved as 'Pop' psychology: (or Prog psychology in our case )http://psychology.about.com/od/cognitivepsychology/a/left-brain-right-brain.htm
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The article confirms that there are differences in the tasks that the left brain and right do, and that they are the same ones we'd always been told of. I don't know what the pop-science notion of left and right brain is. The article doesn't say-not a good article. It makes a great deal out of the left and right sides working together, but they do this by manning their particular specializations, so I can't hazard a guess as to what has been disproven.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5100
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 10:29 |
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With the sort of music which the industry tries to sell to the audiences nowadays, it's a real mystery that Prog did not become popular again.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20513
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 10:28 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
...and now you've lost me completely. I'll just ignore your "methodology" comment .... and the "objectivity" one too.
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Dean, |
Well, you got my name right. |
I've got more than just your name correct. Read my post again as the text dropped out.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 09:49 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
...and now you've lost me completely. I'll just ignore your "methodology" comment .... and the "objectivity" one too.
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Dean, |
Well, you got my name right.
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What?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20513
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 09:33 |
Dean wrote:
...and now you've lost me completely. I'll just ignore your "methodology" comment .... and the "objectivity" one too.
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Dean, you seem to want to ignore most of this thread so I'll give you more to ignore. I sympathize with your frustration over not being able to reach a definitive meaning as to the word 'progressive' in PA. That is because the current music addressed in this site is not progressive. Rock music was only truly progressive in the late 60's and early 70's. Everything produced after that is only an imitation of it's style. The Neo Progressive movement says it all. A copying of Gabriel era Genesis without condemation as to the fact that this was the polar opposite of what Prog is and should be and is why we are where we are at now. The name of this site claims to archive this past prog but does nothing of the sort. Furthermore, treating this retreaded music with the same reverence does little to help. As to the discussions being devoid of music, you should know clearly by now that members go off on tangents or are defensive about music that they themselves did not create. A truly childish attitude if there ever was one. As for discussing beats, bars, chords and notes, I've done that for most of my life and I'm more interested in what fans think of music now as opposed to what producers and musicians think, that's why I ask the questions that I do. We are on opposite sides on this and that's unfortunate. Again, I truly appreciate for frustration, but you are the one flogging a dead horse in all of this, so I will sincerely wish good luck and hope that music can again bring you the same joy that it brings to me.
Edited by SteveG - July 12 2014 at 10:50
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 08:50 |
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...oh good grief...
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What?
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 07:13 |
tawny ant wrote:
Here's a different opinion, I guess: progressive rock is my refuge from the typical diet of classic rock, folk and blues that are still collectively revered as the best music of the previous era. I'm afraid to say that the only way I can stomache the popular music of the sixties and seventies is if it's smothered in mellotron or subverted by ambition! Awed by composers who gamble on their audience's patience, sense of humour and taste for danger, my favourite music is not just prog, but also the wilder sides of post-punk, funk and industrial music.
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Certainly true for me! The only way I can stomach the "metal" genre is if it's progressive metal. The only way I can stomach the "death metal" genre is if it's progressive+death metal bands such as Death, Cynic and Atheist. The only way I can stomach the "black metal" genre is if it's progressive+black metal bands such as Agalloch, Arcturus and Moonsorrow. The only way I can stomach the "power metal" genre is if it's progressive+power metal bands (many of the popular bands got it). and so on.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 07:12 |
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(this is directed at dayvenkirq. Just like rogerthat you split when anyone disagrees or confronts you with a perspective alien to your expectations. It goes with the territory, white guys who don't get laid pretend it''s not important and that their inner beauty will trump the villainous spectator sport that is attraction. Mercifully art trumps the intellect and you are clearly deaf to that which speaks to the heart.
Edited by ExittheLemming - July 12 2014 at 07:18
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 07:04 |
well I can answer for ya. I've heard "Doolittle", "Television Marquee Moon" and "Automatic for the People". They are about as boring as commercial radio stuff. Chances are that the things "in between" will be boring. Prog isn't.
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tawny ant
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 12 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 07:03 |
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Here's a different opinion, I guess: progressive rock is my refuge from the typical diet of classic rock, folk and blues that are still collectively revered as the best music of the previous era. I'm afraid to say that the only way I can stomache the popular music of the sixties and seventies is if it's smothered in mellotron or subverted by ambition! Awed by composers who gamble on their audience's patience, sense of humour and taste for danger, my favourite music is not just prog, but also the wilder sides of post-punk, funk and industrial music.
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 07:02 |
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Because the prog genre has rock drumming and classical imagery on top of it. My Per Un Amico and my Moonmadness keep me going.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 06:56 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
And what's with the attitude?
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Maybe I think that the idea that culture would be safely invested in those who are only able to articulate their own eloquence and lack of experiential nous is somehow a bad thing.
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Not sure how I fit the description. Anyway, this belongs in a different thread, not here.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 06:26 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
And what's with the attitude?
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Maybe I think that the idea that culture would be safely invested in those who are only able to articulate their own eloquence and lack of experiential nous is somehow a bad thing.
Edited by ExittheLemming - July 12 2014 at 06:27
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 06:04 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Prog appeals to my senses... Commercial radio stuff bores me to tears........thats it. |
 so there is nothing in between? Everything is either 'commercial radio stuff' or Prog ... that's a shame.
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What?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 05:55 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
You've already stated that DSOTM is popular because the thematic material is:
Unpalatable and complex? Where? Isn't it the absence of those qualities that actually makes the album an accessible piece of work?
Now I like to think that both of us might agree that the album has no love songs, no terrace anthems (which ironically one Floyd album does) no paeans to the enduring immutability or nobility of the human spirit and is actually filled with songs about the vulnerability of people's psyches to mental illness (real or imagined).
If people are as simplistic as you would have us believe, DSOTM would have been just another esoteric rock album by Pink Floyd to be gorged upon by their niche audience. |
I'm not hearing Roger indicating any sort of human complexity.
ExittheLemming wrote:
... why do you immediately think that a cadence or melody you like must be invested with innovation or prescience (otherwise said idea is not worthy of your esteem?) |
When did I ever say that? I never said that something I like has to be invested with anything, so what does that have to do with anything in our discussion as it was? ... And what's with the attitude?
ExittheLemming wrote:
The musical ideas on DSOTM are predominantly conventional western song based ideas no different to those exploited by someone like the Kinks on Muswell Hillbillies. |
I believe you and I have different understanding of what is harmonically simple/complex.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 12 2014 at 06:19
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 05:14 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
I'm not enamoured by the left-brain/right-brain idea, either as a neurological/physiological reality (which it isn't) or as psychological/metaphorical concept (which is a crock); or by the notion that creative and analytical are unrelated and separate or that they reflect opposing personality types. |
Never said the CREATIVE and the ANALYTICAL are separate. |
I never accused you of such. It is a common conclusion that is drawn from psychometrics of which the left-brain/right-brain idea is the erroneous pop-science explanation.
rogerthat wrote:
But creativity in coming up with great tones need not go along with creativity in coming up with different or unexpected harmonic ideas. We can see this split quite clearly in rock. Ambient/psychedelic rock often tends to eschew development in a linear sense because the focus is on the tone and exploring different facets of the tone. Whereas if you take jazz rock, a lot of it can sound very similar tonally (would say that about plenty of Canterbury as well) and the difference is more in the note selection by itself. These are not necessarily reflective of opposing personality types (and never said as much) and great music can often combine great tones with great melodic or harmonic ideas. But there can be a subconscious preference for one over the other and since it's subconscious, it's potent and difficult to reverse. I am surprised at the surprise being expressed over this idea because I have frequently encountered it. I would recommend an artist to somebody who would come back in a minute complaining there was a tone or a set of tones that turned them off and I'd find I had never noticed it because I was so much taken up with the chords or some such aspect that I overlooked the tones. I am flexible with tones and not so flexible with ideas that sound cliched. For some people, it's the tones they want because they listen to music that sounds great to their ears and they don't mind it if the ideas are not so bold. I am ok with music sounding like practically anything as long as it's daring.
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I don't see how any of that is related to the left-brain/right-brain idea.
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What?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 05:11 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
I'm not enamoured by the left-brain/right-brain idea, either as a neurological/physiological reality (which it isn't) or as psychological/metaphorical concept (which is a crock); or by the notion that creative and analytical are unrelated and separate or that they reflect opposing personality types. |
Never said the CREATIVE and the ANALYTICAL are separate. But creativity in coming up with great tones need not go along with creativity in coming up with different or unexpected harmonic ideas. We can see this split quite clearly in rock. Ambient/psychedelic rock often tends to eschew development in a linear sense because the focus is on the tone and exploring different facets of the tone. Whereas if you take jazz rock, a lot of it can sound very similar tonally (would say that about plenty of Canterbury as well) and the difference is more in the note selection by itself. These are not necessarily reflective of opposing personality types (and never said as much) and great music can often combine great tones with great melodic or harmonic ideas. But there can be a subconscious preference for one over the other and since it's subconscious, it's potent and difficult to reverse. I am surprised at the surprise being expressed over this idea because I have frequently encountered it. I would recommend an artist to somebody who would come back in a minute complaining there was a tone or a set of tones that turned them off and I'd find I had never noticed it because I was so much taken up with the chords or some such aspect that I overlooked the tones. I am flexible with tones and not so flexible with ideas that sound cliched. For some people, it's the tones they want because they listen to music that sounds great to their ears and they don't mind it if the ideas are not so bold. I am ok with music sounding like practically anything as long as it's daring.
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This is complete bollocks and you know it (that's the worst part). Give it up pilgrim.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14256
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 05:08 |
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Prog appeals to my senses... Commercial radio stuff bores me to tears........thats it.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 12 2014 at 05:03 |
Dean wrote:
I'm not enamoured by the left-brain/right-brain idea, either as a neurological/physiological reality (which it isn't) or as psychological/metaphorical concept (which is a crock); or by the notion that creative and analytical are unrelated and separate or that they reflect opposing personality types. |
Never said the CREATIVE and the ANALYTICAL are separate. But creativity in coming up with great tones need not go along with creativity in coming up with different or unexpected harmonic ideas. We can see this split quite clearly in rock. Ambient/psychedelic rock often tends to eschew development in a linear sense because the focus is on the tone and exploring different facets of the tone. Whereas if you take jazz rock, a lot of it can sound very similar tonally (would say that about plenty of Canterbury as well) and the difference is more in the note selection by itself. These are not necessarily reflective of opposing personality types (and never said as much) and great music can often combine great tones with great melodic or harmonic ideas. But there can be a subconscious preference for one over the other and since it's subconscious, it's potent and difficult to reverse. I am surprised at the surprise being expressed over this idea because I have frequently encountered it. I would recommend an artist to somebody who would come back in a minute complaining there was a tone or a set of tones that turned them off and I'd find I had never noticed it because I was so much taken up with the chords or some such aspect that I overlooked the tones. I am flexible with tones and not so flexible with ideas that sound cliched. For some people, it's the tones they want because they listen to music that sounds great to their ears and they don't mind it if the ideas are not so bold. I am ok with music sounding like practically anything as long as it's daring.
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Why Do you prefer Prog over other music genres?
