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Gerinski 
Prog Reviewer
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 Topic: Singers: voice, techniq, melodies, lyrics, passion
Posted: July 21 2014 at 10:45 |
What do you consider most important for a singer to be considered as a great singer: a) he-she should have a very pleasant or special voice timbre b) he-she should have a great technique, vocal range and mastering of different vocal expression techniques c) he-she constructs really strong and beautiful melody lines d) he-she is a great lyricist e) he delivers his-her singing with great passion and feel
and it can be interesting if you can point to examples of singers who have some of these qualities but not others.
As a starter I will say for example that I find IQ's Peter Nicholls' strongest points to be his melody lines and special timbre. Give the same background band's music to any other singer and I doubt many will come up with similarly strong vocal melodies, and then he tops it with his very particular timbre and expression.
Edited by Gerinski - July 21 2014 at 10:48
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moshkito
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 10:48 |
Hi,
None of the above and all of the above at the same time.
The 20th century, specifically, has been about breaking all rules for expression. And it was a massive process in both theater and film during the 50's, 60's and 70's and it also ended up affecting a lot of music.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Dean
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:02 |
Well Gerard, that's you told in no uncertain terms. 
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What?
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cstack3
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:05 |
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He/she sings in tune.
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:09 |
I think a singer should have ALL these qualities.  Timbre, range, technique, expression, passion, melody, lyric writing ability are all important.
But singers who are THAT comprehensively equipped are exceedingly rare. I cannot in fact think of one who could cover each and every base, not offhand at any rate. If we restrict ourselves to prog, then all the more so because often the thrust or center of action in prog tracks lies in the instrumental interplay and not so much the vocals. Anyhow, running through some of my favourites, what boxes do they, imo and imo only, tick and don't tick?
1. Annie Haslam: Ticks a lot of those boxes but hugely ill equipped on the lyric writing front. She did not write lyrics for a long time and when she did, errmmm, would much rather have had Betty Thatcher, thank you very much. But yeah, tone to die for, extraordinary range, amazing technique as well (more evident in live concerts and hence often underestimated), uncanny ability to curve all over the melody in the most subtle way and mostly very sincere (though at times could have been more engaged in the material).
2. Peter Hammill: Almost perfect! A brilliant singer and a wonderful songwriter as well. For my personal taste, I would say I found his way of emoting kind of overwrought. But from a more detached perspective, he comes closest amongst prog names to ticking all those boxes. I would say, again personally speaking, that his tone is not very attractive and this may contribute to my not being able to immediately connect to his work.
3. Daniel Gildenlow: Does extraordinarily well on technical parameters, is blessed with a powerful voice and vast range and does reasonably well on the more creative, emotional aspects. I think a singer as talented as him could let go sometimes and deliver with more conviction. It is a general complaint I have with a lot of contemporary singers and he is no exception. Lyrics are good in content and not so attractive in form.
4. Kate Bush: I don't really like her ultra-syrupy tone but it IS a very unique voice, no doubt (and she can sound a lot less syrupy and less distinct too when she wants to). Very bold and dynamic singer (and artist, for that matter). Another one who, like Hammill, comes very close to fulfilling all criteria if, that is, she doesn't fulfill it. For my personal taste, I should say I also prefer her music. Without wanting to doubt Hammill or VDGG's influence on prog for a moment, I find her chords on the piano very original and very striking in a way I have seldom felt in prog. Maybe because she's just prog related! 
5. Fish: Rather nasal tone and not a huge range. Pretty good technically though not quite a powerhouse imho. Very, very expressive and passionate and of course a superb lyricist. A good demonstration of how in rock music, even prog, the creative/emotional aspects of music can compensate for technical limitations. Fish makes a much bigger impression straight up than a more wonderful sounding singer like Steve Walsh (and I LIKE Walsh, mind you) because he delivers his material with so much force and confidence. Conveying the sense that the artist really means the words he is singing is very important in rock.
And lastly, not prog but a quirky personal favourite, Howard Devoto of Magazine. It is difficult to make out at the best of times if he is singing AT ALL, let alone singing in tune. Even very melodic lines like some in Parade can sound like a spoken narrative when delivered by him. But dammit, somebody who can write "Do you want the truth or do you want your sanity?" and then render it with chilling conviction is totally up my alley. This selection kind of ties in with what Mosh said about rules being broken in the 20th century. By conventional wisdom, Devoto ought to be a rank bad singer but that's not the case at least for those who love the Magazine albums.
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Finnforest
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:16 |
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I never think about vocals in such terms as the various attributes. It moves me or it doesn't. The voice is just another instrument in the band to me, something I've tried many times to explain to those who ask "how can you enjoy vocals in a different language like Italian?" Because first, I don't give a rat's ass about lyrics. And second, because often Italian bands have very emotional vocalists who are every bit as expressive as the lead guitar or keys.
On the opposite side I've enjoyed punk bands where the singer is no better than me in terms of vocal ability, but he knew exactly what to do with it, and it rocked.
So yeah, there's no checklist of attributes required for me. Vocals are a wildcard in a band, almost anything goes so long as it moves me in some way.
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uvtraveler
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:23 |
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I think the qualities needed from the singer depend on the music written. It seems Asia was tailor-made for what John Wetton did best. When I hear him in King Crimson it can be a little jarring when the music is on it's more experimental side. Likewise, ELP would have had to change their sound dramatically to work with Jon Anderson's strengths. To me, that was a huge strength for vintage Pink Floyd. You could contrast the sound by switching between Gilmour and Waters.
Having said that, I'll take Robert Plant as my vocalist, over any prog rock vocalist -- but I'm not sure I want him singing Karnevil IX
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:27 |
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^^^ Or, for that matter, the Hodgson-Davies contrast in Supertramp. By the by, Gilmour was often able to render Waters' parts on stage. A slightly underrated singer (as the focus tends to be on his guitarwork). I observed, in comparing his rendering of Comfortably Numb with that of Tate and LaBrie, how many subtle inflections he had infused in the seemingly simple verse.
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Gerinski
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:29 |
 rogerthat wrote:
5. Fish: Rather nasal tone and not a huge range. Pretty good technically though not quite a powerhouse imho. Very, very expressive and passionate and of course a superb lyricist. A good demonstration of how in rock music, even prog, the creative/emotional aspects of music can compensate for technical limitations.
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Fully agree, Fish's strongest points are his expression and passion (while being also a very good lyricist).
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Gerinski
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:32 |
Dean wrote:
Well Gerard, that's you told in no uncertain terms. |
I'm afraid my English is not good enough to appreciate what did that mean.
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Gerinski
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 11:45 |
Finnforest wrote:
I never think about vocals in such terms as the various attributes. It moves me or it doesn't. The voice is just another instrument in the band to me, something I've tried many times to explain to those who ask "how can you enjoy vocals in a different language like Italian?" Because first, I don't give a rat's ass about lyrics. And second, because often Italian bands have very emotional vocalists who are every bit as expressive as the lead guitar or keys.
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So you said it even without wanting to, what you find most important is emotion, passion, expression.
One could make a very similar argument about instrumentalists too, some are not technically too proficient but have great passion and expression, others shine because of their sounds, they come up with timbres and effects which fit the song so well, others are mainly technical masters etc etc. The only difference is that ability to write lyrics would not apply (in their judgement as instrumentalists I mean, of course many instrumentalists write lyrics too).
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Gerinski
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:00 |
uvtraveler wrote:
ELP would have had to change their sound dramatically to work with Jon Anderson's strengths.
Having said that, I'll take Robert Plant as my vocalist, over any prog rock vocalist -- but I'm not sure I want him singing Karnevil IX
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It's always intriguing to wonder what would have happened if musician X would have played instead of musician Y. I think it's one of the big tests, if a musician makes successful renderings of music by other people (by successful I do not mean copy-cats but different interpretations which sound as great as the original) that is already a very good ingredient for the medal of "top musician".
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verslibre
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:10 |
uvtraveler wrote:
Having said that, I'll take Robert Plant as my vocalist, over any prog rock vocalist -- but I'm not sure I want him singing Karnevil IX |
And I'll take Ronnie James Dio. IMO, all five points in the OP's post apply to Ronnie's capabilities as demonstrated on many albums from the '70s through the '00s, though many people will likely take his lyrics to task.
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moshkito
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:31 |
Hi,
So, that would mean that James Brown stinks as a singer! Joe Cocker can't sing! Roger Chapman is a floozie! Shakti Yoni (Gilly Smith) is an idiot! Flora Purim is just a floozie on stage, Pippero is another turkey, Yusef N' dour is not a singer! ... Robert Wyatt a singer? You're kidding me! Kevin Ayers? What???? where does it stop?
I've heard more blue singers that can't sing, but we all love them, than you can shake a finger at! So have you for that matter!
Edited by moshkito - July 21 2014 at 14:28
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Finnforest
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:33 |
Gerinski wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
I never think about vocals in such terms as the various attributes. It moves me or it doesn't. The voice is just another instrument in the band to me, something I've tried many times to explain to those who ask "how can you enjoy vocals in a different language like Italian?" Because first, I don't give a rat's ass about lyrics. And second, because often Italian bands have very emotional vocalists who are every bit as expressive as the lead guitar or keys.
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So you said it even without wanting to, what you find most important is emotion, passion, expression.
One could make a very similar argument about instrumentalists too, some are not technically too proficient but have great passion and expression, others shine because of their sounds, they come up with timbres and effects which fit the song so well, others are mainly technical masters etc etc. The only difference is that ability to write lyrics would not apply (in their judgement as instrumentalists I mean, of course many instrumentalists write lyrics too). |
Not really. Was just an example about RPI. Not a required attribute. A band could have a vocalist who had a dry, non-emotional delivery....a mumbler of sorts....and it could still work just fine with their music. It cannot be reduced to boxes that must be checked. There is only one box. Do I like listening to it? That's the box. 
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HolyMoly
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:40 |
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All these are important to some degree, but the most important to me by far is the singer should have an interesting voice. If a singer makes me think, "whoa, that sounds different, or not what I was expecting", then they've got their foot in the door. One thing I don't like is a pitch-perfect singer with no character of their own. Or a singer who sounds like a composite of several well worn attributes of numerous other singers in their chosen field (or genre). Doesn't mean they have to sound outrageous, but if they do, that often helps. And if they don't, then if I can discern a personality in the voice, they're cool. In fact most of my favorite singers (eg Jack Bruce, Burt Cummings, jerney Kaagman, P Gabriel, P Hammill) aren't "outrageous" at all, but I feel like I know them.
Edited by HolyMoly - July 21 2014 at 12:46
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addictedtoprog
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 13:42 |
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All of the mentioned factors are important...
Sometimes it happens that im nt being able to fully grasp the meaning of the song by listening alone to the cd...and then if i come across the live video of any such song...observing the singer's body language,voice tone,expressions & vocal delivery i discover lots of missing parts of the story...
But i dnt find too many vocalists of the kind in this aspect..
Steven Wilson wud be a Perfect example for me though.
Edited by addictedtoprog - July 21 2014 at 13:43
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SteveG
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 14:31 |
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Do you feel that singers are played out in Prog music? Ah..sorry. Wrong thread.
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HolyMoly
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 14:40 |
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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chopper
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Posted: July 21 2014 at 14:56 |
Don't worry, my English is fine and I didn't understand it either.
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Singers: voice, techniq, melodies, lyrics, passion
