How Important are lyrics to you in Prog music

dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: ^ Well, that kind of pride doesn't make for a good presence in lyrics, so, ... there.   Really....?   ... and http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99047&PID=5021118#5021118 ... "That's all about words and language", witty remarks, "clever remarks and intellectualization" ... all vague notions. How do you incorporate any of it in a song, do you know? Here, on this forum, people more or less improvise with speech (err ... writing). But songwriting is truly something special and needs a lot of attention. There are high standards and rules of thumb. Our everyday speech/writing has a different set of those. And songwriting is clearly not just about words and language. The author of the song has to breath life into the words and sweeten the whole thing with ... music! Have you noted the style in which Iain writes his posts here? Sounds like he prepares himself for a Peter Hammill's "The Sleepwalkers" -style poetry slam.  Go ahead and try to put anything Iain says in a song. Don't just put two vague notions like "wit" and "song" together and think that it's going to turn out alright. It's easy to say something brainy; it's much harder to write a valuable song. I see that a lot of us have high standards when listening to/reading someone's words.   I get what you are saying but that wasn't really my point. I just think it's odd that those who like reading, books, current events, etc, which are probably most of the people on PA , seem to care less about song lyrics. Maybe it's just me..... Then maybe I'm not reading your posts right. What connection are you implying between "those who are intelligent" and "paying attention to lyrics"?     I can't make it any clearer than what I 've already said several times. This ain't rocket science. From above: " it's odd that those who like reading, books, current events, etc, which are probably most of the people on PA , seem to care less about song lyrics."     This is getting way over analyzed which seems to happen frequently on PA....

I agree with you Doc. I've always felt that prog was for the more literary, at least when I was younger. Not in form or tone but in subject. The two are related in only that way. It doesn't take a rocket  scientist, as you said, to know that the lyrics do not have be literary in form or tone, but just complex enough to tell the story.


Edited by SteveG - July 24 2014 at 18:04

silverpot wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: ^ That ... and this. Riding a high tide on two threads at the same time, Dr.   It simply amazes me how people who claim to be educated can ignore the lyrics but yet still like to read  'novels' etc.   It's two different art forms, litterature and music. It's very rare for them to blend into a whole and it cerainly doesn't do so in prog, most of the time. Some singer/songwriters do get it right though, like Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Nick Drake and probably Leonard Cohen, although I've never understood what he's on about.

The music itself is a different 'art form' but the lyrics are words after all and fall under poetry, prose,   etc which of course is what literature is....words that tell a story or have a point. As an example Sinfield's lyrics had definite meaning and purpose with Crimson and his website will go into all of that of you care to read it...or just read his lyrics yourself.

It depends. When I hear Jon singing

Suns | High | Streams | Through
Awaken gentle mass touch

I don’t have a clue about what it means. Or rather, I understand that it’s some kind of spiritual enlightenment, and luckily the music says the same in a far more intelligible way. And Anderson’s gibberish is pleasant to my ears.

But when I hear Hammill, starting with only his voice and Jackson’s flute, singing

Existence is a stage on which we pass,
a sleepwalk trick for mind and heart

^^Time for the guy that belittles prog lyrics to actually defend them for what they once were. At one time prog lyrics were very much a part of the listening experience if even on a near subliminal level. The obvious great lyricist was Roger Waters with his over the top theatrics (it would be nearly impossible to not understand his points) but he truly came into his own on Wish You Were Here. WYWH is an album about absence and even Waters stripped down use of lyrics to add to the feeling of absence and abandonment did little to detract from their meaning contrasted with over long verbiage from albums like The Wall. Alas, Waters is mute. KC's In The Wake Of Poseidon lamented the destruction of the earth from pollution 45 years before global warming become a common phrase in pop culture. And then there's Neil Peart who summary tale of teenage isolation in the song Subdivisions related to more isolated high school kids than any song that I know of and actually turned them on to Rush, more than any other song that I know of. Than we come to "all is bliss' ramblings' of Yes whose dippy verse from Roundabout perfectly fit around Squire's circular and returning bass riff so that even if the meaning of the lyrics were lost on people, they were a memorable fit. And what other song has two ands in both its title and it's lyrics such as Yes' And You And I. Even if the lyrics were not up to snuff they were at least extremely unique and memorable. These are only a few of the types of lyrics that are sorely lacking in modern prog music, I could go but the exercise would be redundant. I doubt that you will find any information in regard to this in PAs thread on songwriting or people would be smart enough to write lyrics like the ones mentioned. (And you can't put common sense down on paper sometimes)

Edited by SteveG - July 24 2014 at 16:55

dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: dr wu23 wrote: Dayvenkirq wrote: ^ Well, that kind of pride doesn't make for a good presence in lyrics, so, ... there.   Really....?   ... and http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99047&PID=5021118#5021118 ... "That's all about words and language", witty remarks, "clever remarks and intellectualization" ... all vague notions. How do you incorporate any of it in a song, do you know? Here, on this forum, people more or less improvise with speech (err ... writing). But songwriting is truly something special and needs a lot of attention. There are high standards and rules of thumb. Our everyday speech/writing has a different set of those. And songwriting is clearly not just about words and language. The author of the song has to breath life into the words and sweeten the whole thing with ... music! Have you noted the style in which Iain writes his posts here? Sounds like he prepares himself for a Peter Hammill's "The Sleepwalkers" -style poetry slam.  Go ahead and try to put anything Iain says in a song. Don't just put two vague notions like "wit" and "song" together and think that it's going to turn out alright. It's easy to say something brainy; it's much harder to write a valuable song. I see that a lot of us have high standards when listening to/reading someone's words.   I get what you are saying but that wasn't really my point. I just think it's odd that those who like reading, books, current events, etc, which are probably most of the people on PA , seem to care less about song lyrics. Maybe it's just me.....

Then maybe I'm not reading your posts right. What connection are you implying between "those who are intelligent" and "paying attention to lyrics"?

Dayvenkirq wrote: ^ That ... and this. Riding a high tide on two threads at the same time, Dr.

Another vote for Welcome to the Machine.

For me an instrumental piece could be as great as a song or a piece with some lyrics. But, ok, in the case of a musical piece that has lyrics, the lyrics are very important for me. Of course I prefer a great musical piece with mediocre lyrics than a mediocre song with great lyrics. I tink that lyrics are an integral part of the progressive rock. The lyrics on prog rock are far over the lyrics on pop, rock  or even jazz. Lyrics on prog rock are deeper, more intellectual sometimes, and not only love lyrics or about broken relations. Not always the lyrics tell a story, but musical pieces centered on a story line developed with the lyrics is another trademark of prog rock. With the time and maybe in relation with my bigger domain of english language, I was give more and more importance to lyrics. This allows me to enjoy and interpret much more every musical piece, find meanings and value the quality of the composition and the level of the songwriter.

rogerthat wrote: Toaster Mantis wrote: I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc. If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important. In my case, it is simply that I don't want to find a reason to dislike the music that doesn't have anything directly to do with the music.  If they make poor album covers, it's fine.  If they write mediocre lyrics, it's fine.  As long as they make good music.  If the cover art or lyrics are also good, that's a bonus.  So...if those snatches of the lyrics that I can make out casually sound interesting enough to me, I will pay more attention to it to see what they are trying to say.  If it isn't, I simply don't pay attention.

Exactly my take on this as well.
Probably because I don't really understand English (the discussion above was too subtle for me  ) it just happens to be the "Lingua Franca" of the music I listen to. I'm not sure I'm able to make out what is cheesy or not, so I live in ignorant bliss and just enjoy the music.


Edited by silverpot - July 24 2014 at 09:52

dr wu23 wrote:   I agree.....and it surprises me that so many have said lyrics aren't important when so many members here pride themselves in their clever remarks and intellectualization when answering posts and making comments on many subjects here. That's all about words and language.