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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:19 |
Really, Steve? "And the Lord saideth unto him 'Even Siberia goes through the motions." You've never read that passage? Seriously, I was also only using Dylan as a reference. For the most part, while there are a lot of singer/songwriters out there I really like, in general, I prefer prog lyrics to s/s lyrics, as the latter are often too mundane and are usually not as poetic as I'd like. Just making up s/s lyrics here, but it's usually stuff like "I woke up, had some coffee looked out the window, saw a car driving by, waved at the passing car, had another cup of coffee..." Whoopee!
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:31 |
The Doctor wrote:
Really, Steve? "And the Lord saideth unto him 'Even Siberia goes through the motions." You've never read that passage?
Seriously, I was also only using Dylan as a reference. For the most part, while there are a lot of singer/songwriters out there I really like, in general, I prefer prog lyrics to s/s lyrics, as the latter are often too mundane and are usually not as poetic as I'd like. Just making up s/s lyrics here, but it's usually stuff like "I woke up, had some coffee looked out the window, saw a car driving by, waved at the passing car, had another cup of coffee..." Whoopee! |
Scary! 'Woke up. Got out of bed. Dragged a comb across my head. Found my way down stairs and had a cup...' Maybe prog and s/s lyrics are not so different after all. I've seen the light! Praise Neil Morse!
Edited by SteveG - July 26 2014 at 08:23
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16163
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:48 |
MothTwiceborn wrote:
As a lyricist, if I've learned one thing, it's that people don't listen to the bleedin' words :-) |
The falacy that rock music, and specially pop music, has created is that the words are "important" and sometimes it means something a lot more than it seems. The Beatles for example, until everyone got tired fo heavy meanings, and all of a sudden no one likes them because the meanings were personal!!!!!
Lyrics , in the context that we are discussing them here, is an ILLUSION. They do not mean enough to be considered an "instrument" and a part of the symphony, so to speak. As such, many of them are isolated from the musical piece itself, and this creates a separation that many of us can pick up subliminally, making the song less valualbe in the experience! And one day you hear "Ball And Chain" with Janis Joplin ... and you wonder where music starts and insanity dies! You don't have an answer!
But you're making it look like you EVER sat down for a production of Shakespeare and heard the words! Or Oklahoma, for that matter!
Shame on you! Tell me about lyrics again!
Edited by moshkito - July 25 2014 at 15:58
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:58 |
SteveG wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Really, Steve? "And the Lord saideth unto him 'Even Siberia goes through the motions." You've never read that passage? Seriously, I was also only using Dylan as a reference. For the most part, while there are a lot of singer/songwriters out there I really like, in general, I prefer prog lyrics to s/s lyrics, as the latter are often too mundane and are usually not as poetic as I'd like. Just making up s/s lyrics here, but it's usually stuff like "I woke up, had some coffee looked out the window, saw a car driving by, waved at the passing car, had another cup of coffee..." Whoopee! | Scary! 'Woke up. Got out of bed. Dragged a comb across my head. Found my way down stairs and had a smoke...' Maybe prog and s/s lyrics are not so different after all. I've seen the light! Praise Neil Morse! | Remember, only his pre-"Jesus Loves You" years.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:15 |
SteveG wrote:
^I've never read about a Siberian Khatru in the bible. Perhaps I missed that chapter. |
Perhaps there’s a lot that you missed. Not in thought but in awareness. I’m in the same boat, I don’t pretend to grasp
all esoteric literature but it seems to me that they all say pretty much the
same things. The new/old testament, Vedas,
Koran, Dao Te Jing and various Buddhist texts etc. all use different words but
cloak the same messages.
Jon Anderson’s works seem to correlate with these mysterious
texts.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:20 |
^I agree and forgive my clumsy joke. Anderson's lyrics are spiritual but unlike the teaching of the Buddha or the Vedas, they are much more difficult to grasp so what's the use of having them. Being enlightened is wonderful but not if it takes years to unravel the clues hidden in lyrics, IMO.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:43 |
It all presupposes that not only did Mr Anderson interpret and understand the texts and scriptures he was consumed by, he also had some innate ability to convert that understanding into some form of meaning through the power of song. The evidence is inconclusive. If time will allow we will judge all who came in the wake of our new age to stand for the frail. Don't kill the wail, ayayaaaaayayay cetacea dig it.
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What?
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1327
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 21:00 |
Dean wrote:
It all presupposes that not only did Mr Anderson interpret and understand the texts and scriptures he was consumed by, he also had some innate ability to convert that understanding into some form of meaning through the power of song. The evidence is inconclusive. If time will allow we will judge all who came in the wake of our new age to stand for the frail. Don't kill the wail, ayayaaaaayayay cetacea dig it. |
Not necessarily, it could all be just pure intuition… But most
likely it’s a mixture of both well-read knowledge and intuition.
“A seasoned witch could call you
from the depths of your disgrace” – your higher self will eventually bring you
out of your dark world.
Edited by CosmicVibration - July 25 2014 at 21:13
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
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Posted: July 25 2014 at 23:36 |
Regarding whether Prog fans are underestimating their own valuation of lyrics, I think Prog fans are genuinely conflicted. Lyrics were both a (partial) reason for me getting into Script For a Jester's Tear and my dumping the band with disgust upon Misplaced Childhood, that the lyrics were being allowed to drive everything. There is I think a genuine lyric fatigue among Prog fans. Yes, I think lyrics are key in some very important and classic Prog works. I placed Aqualung recently in my personal top ten list. The lyrics there are really top notch, but, even though I hold the album in such high regard, by the time I get to the last song, Wind Up, I can't barely sit through it anymore. My top ten list also holds two albums that are instrumental only in their virtual entirety, Zappa's Shut Up 'N' Play Yer Guitar and Jade Warrior's Floating World. For what other fan base would that be at all likely? Yes, I think lyrics are important to Prog fans, but lyrics can easily outstay their welcome.
Edited by HackettFan - July 26 2014 at 07:33
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 01:38 |
^^^ And therein the difference between a bunch of (structurally) light songs with a verse-chorus and long epics. You put it nicely, fatigue. Simplicity is not really considered a virtue in prog and that becomes a problem in the lyrics department because there's only so much one can take before it gets tiresome. While I don't necessarily plump for all instrumental albums, my favourite prog albums, barring crossovers like DSOTM, are usually the ones that have a greater thrust on instrumental sections than vocals. The only lyrics-heavy band with which I never had a problem with their approach was Genesis. And that, if anything, speaks for the depth of their fabulous musicians, especially circa Lamb Lies Down...where they were able to match step with Gabriel's increased ambition. Whereas, while I am fond of the general style of Marillion, on an album-length basis, it can get a (bit) tiring because there is less variety on the instrumental front to compensate for the heavy lyrics.
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HackettFan
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Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 08:22 |
^That's a good point about simplicity. Even if simple lyrics are more poignant in certain cases, Prog listeners don't want simple by and large.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 08:27 |
HackettFan wrote:
Regarding whether Prog fans are underestimating their own valuation of lyrics, I think Prog fans are genuinely conflicted. Lyrics were both a (partial) reason for me getting into Script For a Jester's Tear and my dumping the band with disgust upon Misplaced Childhood, that the lyrics were being allowed to drive everything. There is I think a genuine lyric fatigue among Prog fans. Yes, I think lyrics are key in some very important and classic Prog works. I placed Aqualung recently in my personal top ten list. The lyrics there are really top notch, but, even though I hold the album in such high regard, by the time I get to the last song, Wind Up, I can't barely sit through it anymore. My top ten list also holds two albums that are instrumental only in their virtual entirety, Zappa's Shut Up 'N' Play Yer Guitar and Jade Warrior's Floating World. For what other fan base would that be at all likely? Yes, I think lyrics are important to Prog fans, but lyrics can easily outstay their welcome. |
I would agree that a certain balance has to be maintained between vocals and intruments in this genre as many of us are musicians or have some background in music so we are attracted to instrumentals and interesting bridges but again the key word is balance.
Edited by SteveG - July 26 2014 at 08:31
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 08:30 |
^By the way, I was not into early Marillion so your take on the lyrics of Script and Misplaced Childhood is interesting.
Edited by SteveG - July 26 2014 at 08:31
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MikeToska
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 16 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 10:04 |
Not overly important but I find I can be put off a lot of bands because of cheesy lyrics... something that appears to be rife in prog bands.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16163
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 11:12 |
Hi,
Gotta remember that folks like Frank Zappa, was quite aware of the lyric's thing, and intentionally made fun of lyrics, along with the stuffiness in classical music appreciation.
The problem is that we will question that "reverse psychology" ability, and then find that things like the Enema Bandit might not be really progressive because of subject matter. And then we have a problem ... something that kinda goes against the "grain" in the definition of the music, and all of a sudden we will go around saying the lyrics prevent it from being progressive, and we're not listening to the "whole" of the piece at all.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 11:54 |
HackettFan wrote:
^That's a good point about simplicity. Even if simple lyrics are more poignant in certain cases, Prog listeners don't want simple by and large. |
Maybe some of them don't. I for one don't favor the use of encrypting literary devices that obfuscate the meaning of the words.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 26 2014 at 11:54
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Crimson_King
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 25 2014
Location: End of the line
Status: Offline
Points: 9
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 13:04 |
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
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"Naked we come, bruised we go...Nude pastry for the slow soft worms below" ---James D. Morrison; "Throw out yer gold teeth & see how they roll...the answer they reveal: Life is Unreal" ---Steely Dan
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 13:08 |
^ So, how important are lyrics in prog to you?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 15:20 |
Crimson_King wrote:
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
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That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking, profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
Edited by SteveG - July 26 2014 at 15:45
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 16:04 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
^That's a good point about simplicity. Even if simple lyrics are more poignant in certain cases, Prog listeners don't want simple by and large. | Maybe some of them don't. I for one don't favor the use of encrypting literary devices that obfuscate the meaning of the words.
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I was actually thinking of simplicity in terms of economy when I wrote the post, the number of syllables and how they fit in to the intracacy of the music. The less is more kind of thing. I do like some obscurity in lyrics. I don't think it's too much to say to listeners that, if they don't know what a stickleback is, they ought to go find out. Of course Gabriel brought up the encoding issue in I Don't Remember, nevertheless, I wonder how many casual listeners knew what that song was about. I can say I didn't at first.
Edited by HackettFan - July 26 2014 at 16:05
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