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OpethGuitarist 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 1655
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 Topic: Requesting Ulver's category be changed
Posted: August 30 2006 at 18:49 |
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While doing my Ulver review the other day, I noticed they were in experiment/post-rock subdivision.
I would like to propose that they be switched to the category of Art Rock.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:01 |
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ART ROCK:
Not a sub-genre, as much as a category. Bands included in Art Rock may have very few things in common, other than the fact that they are all 100% Progressive Rock bands.
The term Art Rock has evolved from being synonymous with Progressive Rock in the early 70's, to being considered the borderline between Progressive Rock and mainstream in the 90's. However, the term has changed again with the new century, and below are the characteristics of the bands that will be included in this category:
1. 100% Prog bands
2. Bands that are beyond the limits of the sub-genre parameters, or
3. Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or
4. Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5. Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.
(The main difference with Prog-Related is that in this second category the bands included are not usually accepted as Prog bands, or are simply non Prog bands that have influenced or been influenced by the genre.)
Prog Archives accepts that this is a very generic category, but we believe it is necessary to avoid creating endless sub-genres for each eclectic band that appears.
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OpethGuitarist
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Joined: June 25 2006
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Points: 1655
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:15 |
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I think Ulver more or less fit that description
They went from a folkish/black metal sounding band to a tech-house band. A band with one of the most broad range of musical sounds on this site.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Eetu Pellonpaa
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Joined: June 17 2005
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 05:55 |
 Tony R wrote:
3. Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent... |
This point makes the "art rock" category to absorb many bands, which could also be described with several genres. Ofcourse, this is just a thought brought up by observation, I believe the current version of the site doesn't allow this.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:11 |
Perhaps it would make sense to rename Art Rock to "Various Genres"? 
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Eetu Pellonpaa
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:15 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:21 |
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^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.
About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:26 |
Me and Bryan discussed Ulver's re-categorising yesterday. We haven't come to a certain conclusion yet, however, what we agree on is that Ulver are suitable ANYWHERE but in Art Rock, since they don't normally rock out.
They are well off where they are at the moment, as they have recorded at least 4 albums of obvious Post-Rock tendencies, however, I am thinking about moving them to Progressive Electronic. Art Rock is quite stupid, if you ask me, and they don't fit with the other bands.
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Eetu Pellonpaa
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:29 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.
About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
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OK, sorry, I thought you very joking.  I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres?
EDIT: I have heard only the flok album by ULVER, which was quite OK and a surprising find. I think I'll try some of their early metal stuff next.
Edited by Eetu Pellonpää - August 31 2006 at 06:30
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Trickster F.
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:31 |
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I also agree with Mike about the name Art Rock making no sense at all. We could name it Various Genres or General Progressive Rock or something like that. However, the definition of Art Prog we have at the moment has nothing to do with the common one. I mean, Peter Gabriel, David Bowie and The Flaming Lips are associated with Art Rock according to many music critics, whilst others use the term 'Art Rock' as a synonym to what we refer to as "Prog".
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Ricochet
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:33 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.
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Rookie, as always, in this debate, yet I think "Various Prog Genres"
would be a very generalized, even ugly name for such a "branch" like
the important Art Rock one. A simple generalized pronouncement is the
thing needed?
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:33 |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
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OK, sorry, I thought you very joking. I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres? |
Well, I know a website where it is implemented just like you describe it. 
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Trickster F.
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Joined: February 10 2006
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:37 |
Eetu Pellonpдд wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.
About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
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OK, sorry, I thought you very joking. I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres?
EDIT: I have heard only the flok album by ULVER, which was quite OK and a surprising find. I think I'll try some of their early metal stuff next. |
Bergtatt is an excellent mix of Black Metal and Norwegian Folk, this is the Metal album you would find interesting, as it greatly influenced the band Agalloch, which I think you must be familiar with. Their other full-length BM release Nattens Madrigal is straight-forward generic, yet well done, true Black Metal, which would not appeal to prog fans.
However, their early stuff was not taken into account when they were added to the site. They are here because of their later albums, starting with the experimental multi-genre Themes... and ending with the latest Avant-Rock of Blood Inside. I suggest the two records mentioned, as well as the extraordinary Post-Rock influenced electronics of the musical journey that is Perdition City. They have numerous other release, which, whilst not fitting the title of a masterpiece, are very intriguing and at other times almost enlightening. One of the most diverse bands on the site at the moment, if not THE most diverse.
They have a lot of experience with Electronic Music, and do it the progressive way, which is the reason why I think they'd best be in Progressive Electronic. Bryan opposes me with the argument "They don't fit with the rest of the bands in the sub-genre so far", however, they don't fit anywhere perfectly.
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Eetu Pellonpaa
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:54 |
^ OK. I used to listen some harder heavy music as a teenager, so I can appreciate such music in some mental states.
^^ Mike, is it allmusic.com?  |
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:56 |
Tony R wrote:
ART ROCK:
3. Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or
4. Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5. Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.
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Sounds like Ulver...
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 07:04 |
darksinger wrote:
Tony R wrote:
ART ROCK:
3. Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or
4. Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5. Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.
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Sounds like Ulver... |
Thing is... We don't just drop evolving bands into Art Rock. There is a difference between change of "progressive" genres and a band moving from non-progressive realm to create the polar opposite music. People who think Ulver should be dropped into Art Rock think about their progression from the very first albums to their other, more experimental albums. However, neither Bergtatt, nor Kveldsfanger nor Nattens Madrigal are progressive, which means we should neglect those from influencing our final decision.
Imagine a band that played brutal Death Metal and then suddenly became a RIO band. Do we put them under Art Rock or RIO/Avant-Rock? The latter, of course, because they had nothing to do with Prog before the evolution.
I say Progressive Electronic, Art Rock makes as little sense as anything to me, although if it is called something else, I'll get back to you with more thoughts.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 07:21 |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
^^ Mike, is it allmusic.com? |
 no, I was referring to a much smaller website.
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Eetu Pellonpaa
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Posted: August 31 2006 at 09:58 |
^ Ah... 
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Requesting Ulver's category be changed
