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jalas

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Topic: Is Santana prog?
Posted: November 03 2006 at 14:34

of course he is. If Hawkwind can be considered prog, than anybody can be prog.

Cristi

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Posted: November 03 2006 at 04:38

Santana is prog or at least it used to be. Starting with 1999, Santana went poppy commercial

, collaborating with mainstream singers. Shame...

Peter

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Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:50

I don't know & I don't care.

"Prog" is almost entirely subjective, and every such addition here makes the term mean more, and less. All of these overlapping, non-intuitive "categories" are confusing, ever contentious, and frankly ridiculous, IMO. Too many people here like to pigeonhole and analyze art to death! Dead

Make up your own mind on these things (if it matters so much to you), because you'll never get a consensus.

Edited by Peter Rideout - November 03 2006 at 00:57

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: November 02 2006 at 15:11

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I agree with you he's not Psychedelic Progressive Rock artist, never doubted and never will but I can't change history.

This is the only reason I don't want them to our genre which has only psychedelic progressive rock artists in it.

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 12:04

Wasn't Carlos Santana's first recording on that sprawling double set Live Adventures of Al Kooper & Mike Bloomfield - playing some blues?

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:49

I agree PROG RELATED, and very influencial!

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:34

Yes. Not exist only a Symphonic or Psychedelic or Canterbury or Krautrock or Zehul or art Rock in 70's...

Exist also Latin Jazz Prog... And the king is Santana!!!

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:22

Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

So now the voters are wrong? I think that would be a quite arrogant statement. I’m sure that you only want to see the situation in this way in order to maintain your own viewpoints.

Please Eetu don't put words in my mouth:

I never said all the voters are wrong, but if you read the posts, a lot admit that are not familiar with Sanatana's work, some say they dobn't know and others compare him with Menudo, so it's logical to believe that the polls here don't reflect anything but personal opinions.

Your quotations of the sources only proved that his early records are part of the San Francisco movement. This won't qualify as psychedelic progressive rock, but proto prog (third time telling this in this post).

So, he merged from the San Francisco Psychedelia and they are not Psychedelic artists? Well, probably not Psychedelic Prog, but Psychedelic in a wide sense they are, that's my whole point.

So now you admit yourself that his music is not 100% prog?

No Eetu, I accepted this from my first post here, I don't use to change my opinions according to the circumstances:

1.- I posted October 25 even before you joined this thread:

I'm not sure if he's Prog Rock and as a fact don't believe it but he's a Psyche artist, he blended Rock with Jazz and Latin influences and is at least Proto Prog.

2.- Then I posted October 26 in the morning before you replied me:

Now, I believe it's a terrible mistake to have him in Jazz Rock/Fusion, the band is essentially Psychedelic and most surely Proto Prog, probably related to Folk due to the Latin roots but he's lost in Fusion.

3.- Then I wrote also yesterday and also before you even replied me you won't accept him (Something I understand):

And no, Santana is a West Coast artist rooted in the middle of USA Psychedelia, he is one of the most representative musicians of the San Francisco Psychedelia

So Eetu, it's not NOW that I accept he's not a full Progressive Rock artist, I've been saying this since the thread started and even beforre you joined it.

I'm not trying to make anybody happy, what I'm trying to do is to make & keep "Psychedelic / Space rock" genre to a shape fitting the criteria defined to it. As you start pushing your favorite artist to that genre with arguments I see as false, and I can point that out logically, are you suggesting that I should not do so? I will, I promise you. I described earlier the arguments why they do not fit as psychedelic prog genre, please re-read them if in doubt.

Eetu, I didn't added him, I'm happy Sean did but if you know about our work with Symphonic Team you will notioce that we never tried to make everybody happy, we tried to do what we believed it's the correct thing despite how unpopular it would be, we took Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Barclay James Harvest and VDGG out of Symphonic despite we knew this would be unpopular.

We hadthe luck most of the Collaborators agreed with us.

Call it Proto Prog or whatever, but SANTANA emerged from the Psyche San Francisco scenario, he's included in EVERY Psychedelic database as one of te most representative artists, his jamming and soloing is absolutely characteristic of this mvement.

I agree with you he's not Psychedelic Progressive Rock artist, never doubted and never will but I can't change history.

I'm sure you're ging to do a great job with Psyche/Space Prog according to your beliefs but again being always deffensive is not healthy, musical terms as Psychedelia are not 100% accurate, there's a margin for disagreements and differences, stay with your honest understanding, that's what I try to do but listen other members opinions with patience.

If they move Santaa as Prog Related I would feel much more comfortable, i'm not asking to keep him as a 100% Prog artist because it's obvious he isn't but I don't believe he's a Jazz Fusion artist in the vein of Mahavishnu, Jean Luc Ponty or Return to Forever.

Iván

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:23

of course, but he's not English Prog!

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:33

Don't forget "Illuminations" with alice Coltrane (1974).

Edited by oliverstoned - October 27 2006 at 09:33

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:27

Bilek wrote:

I was in favor of merging Carlos' solo career with that of Santana (after all, the style is more or less the same; and same players are playing every now and then) but another entry will not kill me...

btw, isn't Love Devotion and Surrender also included in JMc Laughlin's discography? That makes a double entry. Someone needs to check it out...

Nice work, Hugues. You single-handedly managed all Santana related works (including reviews!)...

I guess I need to check out post '76 works now (my mp3 disc includes up to '76...)

Re LDS: I posted this thread so far no reaction

(Oneness is also in twice as someone included it)

The reason why I chose to enter his solo career separately is mostly that his collab albums (Miles, Coltrane, McLaughlin and Brothers) were difficult to enter without changing the entry name.

As for the whole works, I've been on this for six weeks with the 70's albums on regular rotations for the same period, so those reviews are not winged on the spot >> the only one I skipped is Festival and the live Lotus. I will attack some 80's (group and solo) records in the next weeks (have started already)>> I am much less familiar with those.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:12

I was in favor of merging Carlos' solo career with that of Santana (after all, the style is more or less the same; and same players are playing every now and then) but another entry will not kill me...

btw, isn't Love Devotion and Surrender also included in JMc Laughlin's discography? That makes a double entry. Someone needs to check it out...

Nice work, Hugues. You single-handedly managed all Santana related works (including reviews!)...

I guess I need to check out post '76 works now (my mp3 disc includes up to '76...)

Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:46

Bilek wrote:

I have nothing to add!! Brilliant work. I only felt that some pieces must have been highlighted

...

One should not overlook the John McLaughlin contribution in both Welcome, and Love Devotion Surrender. Both men were disciples of Guru Sri Chimnoy (apparently along with Alice Coltrane), which makes an obvious connection between the artists' musical styles.

thanks for the support Bilek!!

(the enveloppe with the unmarkedbills is where we convenned)

Caravanserai
(1972)

Borboletta
(1974)

Carlos Santana And John McLaughlin – Love Devotion And Surrender
(1973)

Carlos Santana And Alice Coltrane - Illuminations
(1974)

and these two are full blown jazz rock as well:

Carlos Santana - Oneness, Silver Dreams - Golden Reality album review, Mp3, track listing

Oneness, Silver Dreams - Golden Reality
(Studio Album, 1979)
4.00

Carlos Santana - Swing of Delight album review, Mp3, track listing

Swing of Delight
(Studio Album, 1980)
4.00

and this is only for the 70's.

Edited by Sean Trane - October 27 2006 at 08:46

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 05:14

Sean Trane wrote:

Santana (both the group and the solo artiste) is full-blown jazz-rock all I will only speak of his 70's album. One can still argue that Santana's early 80's albums (Marathon, Zebop, Shango) are still jazz-rock enough to be prog related.

Full jazz rock album from the group:

Caravanserai, Borboletta, Welcome >>> 3

Partially jazz rock albums from the group;

Abraxas, 3, Festival, Amigos, Moonflower, Inner Sectrets >>> 6

Full jazz rock album from Carlos Santana (solo):

Love Devotion Surrender, Illuminations (both these two are axed on john Coltrane), Oneness and Swing of Delights >>> 4

I dare say 13 albums are jazz-rock just for the 70's. I do not think there is one single classic prog UK group that can beat that in one decade.

I rest my case!!!

I have nothing to add!! Brilliant work. I only felt that some pieces must have been highlighted

...

Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 05:07

Trying to reconcile:

I agree with my teammate on one point: Santana's style is not Psychdelic "Progressive" Rock. It may have been based on the first Psychedelia movement (as the first 3 albums also indicate), but if we happen to accept every West Coast band as Psychedelic Prog, we end up admitting more than half of the proto-prog bands in psychedlic Space rock genre! (besides, there's nothing "spacy" in any of the West Coast bands' music!!!!)

On the other hand, Santana would not fit into proto-prog, either, for 2 reasons:

1- They clearly did not contribute to the evolution of prog in early stages (unlike Beatles, Procol Harum, and The Nice, etc.)

2- Prog movement is said to have started with KC's debut album, in 1969. That's when Sanatana also released their debut, so they don't fit timewise...

I happen to agree with Sean Trane in this respect, though Santana emerged from Psychedelic movement, from Caravansarai onwards they changed direction to straightforward Jazz Rock (of course, with a plenty of ethnic elements). Look at the albums he listed, just from the '70's, for heaven's sake. And note the guest musicians / collaborations in the albums! John McLaughlin himself guests on Welcome, not to mention Love Devotion Surrender (where half of Mah. Orc. members, along with half-Santana band played). I should also mention these two albums: Live with Buddy Miles, and Illuminations witgh Alice Coltrane! Now, who can deny the Jazz-Rock connectioin!?!?!?

I personally believe Jazz-Rock/Fusion is the logical place for Santana. Sean Trane did a brilliant job adding them there...

Also, I think Carlos Santana's solo and collab works must be added to the same place, which will reinforce the Jazz-Rock connection (there's no need to open up another entry...)

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 04:49

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:Santana is a musician emerged from the Psychedelic San Francisco scenario, that's an historical fact that can't be denied, it's widely documented and his music is in that category.

But these artists go to "proto prog"!

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:We have a Psychedelia/Space Prog sub-genre and at least until you make the changes (Or made, haven'tchecked Psyche page lately) each one was separeted from the other, being Santana one of the most representative members of the San Francisco Psyche movement it's possible t include there.

Separated? WHAT! Space rock is a subgenre of psychedelic progressive rock genre! I won't accept anykind of slicings of this genre! San Francisco Psyche genre bands are "Proto Prog", so they can't be labelled here as "Psychedelic / Space Rock"!

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:To say Santana's career is POP is simply a prove you're bnot familiar with his music. something you have accepted, he started as a Psyche artist and evolved into some weird and unique form of Latin Fusion, only their last couple of albums are MAINSTREAM, which is not a synonymous of POP.

Yep. I don't want to listen to his records, so it's logical that I don't know much about his career. What I have heard from the radio in excess his "Abraxs" album, his music is POP to me. If there has to be a special case of it, please send me his discography, and we listen the records with our team to form a more educated opinion.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:The quotes I made are not only from informed sites but also from books that document Psychedelia and musical history, the post here includes votes from people who clearly are not familiar with Santana at all, some have accepted it, some only know Supernatural others a couple of early songs., probably a few know abouyt his work with John McLLaughlin, so this means nothing.

So now the voters are wrong? I think that would be a quite arrogant statement. I’m sure that you only want to see the situation in this way in order to maintain your own viewpoints.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:The approach or understanding you have about psychedelia is perfectly valid, you're in charge of that team, it's your responsability and it's your choice to decide what is your position, something about what I can't and won't say a word.

But you are saying lots of about it right on this thread with your statements, and you are welcome to do so. But I'll respond.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

:Surely SANTANA is not a 100% Prog artist, I don't believe he ever released a Progressive Rock album, I have clearly stated I would be more comfortable with him in Psychedelia (Because I understand Psychedelia as a world wide movement of the late 60's not bnecessarilly Prog), Proto Prog or even Prog Related.

So now you admit yourself that his music is not 100% prog? That should mean he should be surely moved to prog related! You understand rightly, that psychedelia was a very large movement. I also accept, that his first albums were influenced by this movement. But progressive psychedelic rock, going here with the clumsy genre name "Psychedelic / Space Rock”, charts only a certain area of psychedelic field, that being psychedelic progressive rock artists. I do not concider SANTANA as a pure prog artists.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So try not to be so defensive because you will need a lot of patience when you have to inform about the changes you will make in Psyche just to receive 10% of the critics we received when doing the same thing in Symphonic because believe me, you will never make everybody happy.

Yours,

Eetu

PS: I'll try "illuminations"

Edited by Eetu Pellonpää - October 27 2006 at 08:51

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 03:53

Eetu, I only say a few things so please don't misunderstand me:

Santana is a musician emerged from the Psychedelic San Francisco scenario, that's an historical fact that can't be denied, it's widely documented and his music is in that category.
We have a Psychedelia/Space Prog sub-genre and at least until you make the changes (Or made, haven'tchecked Psyche page lately) each one was separeted from the other, being Santana one of the most representative members of the San Francisco Psyche movement it's possible t include there.
To say Santana's career is POP is simply a prove you're bnot familiar with his music. something you have accepted, he started as a Psyche artist and evolved into some weird and unique form of Latin Fusion, only their last couple of albums are MAINSTREAM, which is not a synonymous of POP.
The quotes I made are not only from informed sites but also from books that document Psychedelia and musical history, the post here includes votes from people who clearly are not familiar with Santana at all, some have accepted it, some only know Supernatural others a couple of early songs., probably a few know abouyt his work with John McLLaughlin, so this means nothing

The approach or understanding you have about psychedelia is perfectly valid, you're in charge of that team, it's your responsability and it's your choice to decide what is your position, something about what I can't and won't say a word.

Surely SANTANA is not a 100% Prog artist, I don't believe he ever released a Progressive Rock album, I have clearly stated I would be more comfortable with him in Psychedelia (Because I understand Psychedelia as a world wide movement of the late 60's not bnecessarilly Prog), Proto Prog or even Prog Related.

You are the one who must decide which bands you accept or not, I'm not trying to force ou to accept him or not, IMHO SANTANA would be perfect in Psyche (As I understand it), Proto Prog and/or Prog Related.

The only thing I'm sure here is that he's a musician rooted and born in San Francisco Psychedelic scenario and not a Jazz Rock/Fusion artist.

You say he's not Prog...I agree, you say he should bne in Prog Related...I also agree but if you say most of his career is POP then I respectfully disagree.

So try not to be so defensive because you will need a lot of patience when you have to inform about the changes you will make in Psyche just to receive 10% of the critics we received when doing the same thing in Symphonic because believe me, you will never make everybody happy.

Peace.

Iván

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 03:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

That's your choice, but honestly Santana is one of the main icons of San Francisco Psychedelia, that's a fact that can't be denied, probably your approach to Psychedelia is different but history doesn't lie.

Sean for example is not ready to accept some forms of Country music into Folk sub-genre and his approach is valid as yours.

But

Santana is the primary exponent of Latin-tinged rock, particularly due to its combination of Latin percussion (congas, timbales, etc.) with bandleader Carlos Santana's distinctive, high-pitched lead guitar playing. The group was the last major act to emerge from the psychedelic San Francisco music scene of the 1960s and it enjoyed massive success at the end of the decade and into the early '70s.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:hk4gtq5ztu45

An influential rock style emerged during the mid-to-late 1960s in San Francisco, California. Sometimes called psychedelic rock, this form of rock was closely associated with the use of hallucinogenic drugs, such as Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD); psychedelic art and light shows; and an emphasis on spontaneity and communitarian values, epitomized by free-form events known as be-ins. The San Francisco scene reached its high point with the so-called Summer of Love in 1967, when thousands of young people—often referred to at the time as hippies—flocked to the city to experience the culture.

Perhaps the most representative group of musicians to come out of San Francisco during this period was the Grateful Dead featuring vocalist and lead guitarist Jerry Garcia. The Dead experimented with long, improvised stretches of music called jams. Despite the antiestablishment orientation of the youth culture at the time, a number of the musicians and groups that were prominent on the scene—including the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, and Santana (a group led by Carlos Santana)—eventually signed lucrative contracts with major recording companies. Santana, Jefferson Airplane (later renamed Jefferson Starship), and the Grateful Dead went on to have successful music careers in the ensuing decades, but Joplin died of a drug overdose in 1970—one of the events that for many people signified the end of the San Francisco scene.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558548/Rock_Music.html

Summer of Love : The Inside Story of LSD, Rock & Roll, Free Love and High Times in the Wild West

by Joel Selvin [reprint 10/99]

"Selvin has provided an authoritative account full of rich details (sometimes too many) of the San Francisco music scene from 1965 to 1971. Armed with material from archives, nearly a hundred taped interviews, and his own recollections, Selvin, San Francisco Chronicle pop music critic (then and now), weaves together the stories of the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Santana, and other bands that were part of the scene that redefined American pop music.

http://www.bomp.com/BompbooksPsych.html

Again, every Psche database includes SANTANA, it's your option to accept him or not but this won't change the fact his one of the main exponents of the San Francisco Psychedelia movement.

To be honest I would feel more comfortable with Santana in Prog Related than in Fusion, at least it's wide enough to understand his diversity.

Iván

What you do not understand, is that all bands in those lists of yours which are included in PA are in the "Proto-Prog" genre, not in "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre. Please, do not make a mess with these things, but read the genre description from the front page. If "Proto Prog" artists would be transferred to "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre, the same could be done for example to acid folk artists.

Besides, all bands which are to be included in "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre will have to be progressive rock, and I don't see SANTANA as progressive rock, as many other people too won't. I think "prog related" would be the proper selection for this group, as are thinking the majority:

Poll Question: Do you think Santana is a progressive band?

Yes	24	[31.17%]
No	53	[68.83%]

When viewing SANTANA's career, only their few first albums are influenced by psychedelic culture. As majority of his career is pop oriented music, it would be a major mistake to include this kind of artist to the same list with real psychedelic progressive rock artists.

Besides, everything you claim as a fact and back up with arguments searched from the internet do not represent fact, but things which you want to present as facts, but which are only subjective viewpoints in my opinion.

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Posted: October 26 2006 at 17:18

Santana, Prog? NO

Santana & Rob Thomas, YES!!

But really, I have no problem with alot of early Santana albums. But come on, we now have Santana in Prog Archives? But still no Brian Auger. (who is boatloads more progressive than Santana ever has been) Or even Walter/Wendy Carlos? I'm sorry, but for the last 20 years Santana has been about as prog as Menudo.

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Posted: October 26 2006 at 16:59

No, no, no. NO
NO
NO

xtopher wrote:

Now Joe Satriani needs to be here. He's extremely overdue.

I seriously HATE that guy. I went to a g3 show this week and satriani's performance was awfull. I don't know how said he was very melodic... well he ISN'T. His shreding almost got me to kill him. But i let him live Tongue

.Anyway, he is in prog metal culture (its very common to see prog metalheads listening to satriani or vai), so i think he belongs here more than mr Santana.

Poll Question: Do you think Santana is a progressive band?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	33	[32.04%]
No	70	[67.96%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted