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A B Negative 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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 Topic: Symptom of the universe
Posted: February 19 2008 at 06:25 |
 MAN- ERG wrote:
The albums SOMEWHERE DEEP IN THE NIGHT or WHERE OUR LOVE GROWS by Manchester soul-jazzy-pop band SWING OUT SISTER are fine exemples of sophisticated music being made in the 2000s. But those are exceptions if compared to the whole state of the music business. Their success is small and local (Japan only) and like many other good bands that still exist, they don't count for the analyses of the actual condition of the music industry (because of poor sales, lack of exposure in TV, radio, press, music books, etc... ...in other words: no one knows they exist). |
I didn't know Swing Out Sister were back but I couldn't stand them first time round. I can't deny the sophistication but I just don't like them.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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MHDTV
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 144
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Posted: February 18 2008 at 13:59 |
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Who is that aimed at? I'm assuming the starter of the thread and subsequent posters. But you never know.
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Freak yo' swerve
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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Posted: February 18 2008 at 02:41 |
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What is this the 3 newbies rant about music they don't like thread?
Lets all embrace their love of genre dismissiveness and generalizations and get on with more interesting things.
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MHDTV
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 144
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Posted: February 18 2008 at 01:40 |
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Lol. Music isn't falling. The music industry is.
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Freak yo' swerve
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2492
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Posted: February 14 2008 at 22:48 |
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Music is failing? Wasn't 2007 the best year prog had in a dog's age?
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: February 14 2008 at 22:41 |
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I don't get it. What's the argument here? That what's popular sucks, compared to what's good? That's been true, sorry to say, since the early '70's, with obvious exceptions. But I'd guess Three Dog Night was outselling ELP back in the day.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: February 14 2008 at 09:52 |
MAN- ERG wrote:
robg wrote:
what a bizarre post.
You're complaining about grunge?? Are we in a time-warp where it's forever 1992 here?
Sorry, but this little rant comes across as very ignorant and childish..... |
Bizarre post ? Why ? Mike Giles post is accurate. It is superficial to say he is in a time-warp back to 1992. GRUNGE and PUNK may be distant in time, but they keep producing its effects to the present day.
Thanks to them and to the support of the music press, the music industry was corrupted by this (small thinking) idea that rock has to be loud and agressive and everything else which is not guitar-driven is crap.
Unfortunately people were led to believe in this "school of thinking" which says that rock has to be kept down to 3 chords and it can't be well played by good musicians. |
I used to be really narrow minded about pretty much all 'punk. I still don't like a lot of it, but actually get to know it a bit more and just the many people don't realise prog has many sub genres, many people don't understand punk has many sub-genres too. No I don't like Punk Rock, Skate Punk, Pop-Punk and the simpler genres of punk, because I like music that shows that artist is expressing themselves more freely and that shows they are challenging themselves. Two years ago, I heard an album by a 'hardcore punk' band called Refused, and I ended up loving it. It happens this band falls into the Post Hardcore genre, an off shoot of punk rock, with much hardcore influence as well. That album was so far ahead, creatively and expressively, of the simple punk genres, that I almost could not accept it was hardcore, because the general hardcore scene had become very stagnant, and here was something that seriously amazed me. Listen to At The Drive In, which is labelled a 'punk rock' band, and tell me it sounds like Greenday or any of those overly commerciaised generic punk pop groups. It doesn't. 2 of the At the Drive In guys went on to form The Mars Volta, whom are great musicians (even if you like them or not, they are undoubtably creative and expressive musicans, just like I don't really Opera vocalists music, but they are undeniably good at their craft nonetheless), and a great band in the progarchives listing, so surely At the Drive in had great musicans on board (and IMO they really did).
And I learnt a great lesson out of those 2 bands, which is to, instead of dimissing a whole genre because of the negative stereotypes and examples, give it a fair chance, because you are likely to find at least 1 good band among 100, 200 or even 500 sub-par bands. And if you dont want to have to just randomly sift through bands, do what I did, and research the genre, which lead to me discovering the sub-genres. Find out which sub-genre/s have the most appealing musical traits to your mind, and give some bands/artists in that sub genre a shot.
Edited by HughesJB4 - February 14 2008 at 09:54
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Man Erg
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 26 2004
Location: Isle of Lucy
Status: Offline
Points: 7456
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Posted: February 14 2008 at 09:05 |
^^^ Off topic Hi MAN- ERG,Pleased to meet you.Great nick name by the way. Good luck and best wishes Lee 
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 Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb.
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MAN- ERG
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 12 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 8
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Posted: February 13 2008 at 09:52 |
Imadofus wrote:
And, Man-Erg, saying that Punk made people think that "rock has to be loud and agressive and everything else which is not guitar-driven is crap" or that "rock has to be kept down to 3 chords and it can't be well played by good musicians"
is like saying that Prog made people think that "rock has to be complex and everything that doesn't have a keyboard is crap" or that "rock has to have as many solos and time signature changes as possible, and can't be well played by anyone who isn't a virtuoso". There are many people who would support one of those ideas, as there are many who would oppose to them. |
Not really.
This ideia of proficient musicians playing rock died in the 70s and is absent from the music industry since the 80's up to the present. One can only find it in guettos (small ones). But I believe that in the initial post by Mike Giles he was speaking about the state of music today AS A WHOLE. If we are going to talk about specific scenes, of course there is very good music being made today. For example:
The albums SOMEWHERE DEEP IN THE NIGHT or WHERE OUR LOVE GROWS by Manchester soul-jazzy-pop band SWING OUT SISTER are fine exemples of sophisticated music being made in the 2000s. But those are exceptions if compared to the whole state of the music business. Their success is small and local (Japan only) and like many other good bands that still exist, they don't count for the analyses of the actual condition of the music industry (because of poor sales, lack of exposure in TV, radio, press, music books, etc... ...in other words: no one knows they exist).
And this happens to a lot of other groups which make (these days) daring, well crafted and complex music : they pay a high price for being good : they make no commercial success. Today, image counts more than talent. Today, joe public normally goes after the easiest sounds made by the sexiest girl or the handome guy. These days nobody cares anymore for better music. People prefer what's more raw, direct and immediate. They won't waste time learning a good melody that demands more than one listen to be understood.
If it wasn't for the internet these groups which are still going against the grain would be gone a long time. Lack of commercial succees has wrecked many bands in the past.
 To avoid confusions, I was kindly asked to not login under the nick MAN-ERG because there is another MAN ERG here. So these are my last posts under this nick. And to make things clear I AM NOT THE ONE WHO IS A LONG TIME MEMBER which, by the way, I haven't spoken too.
Edited by MAN- ERG - February 13 2008 at 09:58
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Imadofus
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 87
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 23:58 |
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Look, I can understand that you don't appreciate most mainstream music nowadays, but saying that "music is falling" is exaggerated. Therer are people who enjoy rap, grunge and punk, and they are neither better nor worse than you because of that. Music is all about taste. It's not like prog is the only good music that has ever existed.
Plus, in every moment of the past 50 years there has been good and bad music. In fact, there is no such thing as good or bad music, only music you like and music you don't.
And, Man-Erg, saying that Punk made people think that "rock has to
be loud and agressive and everything else which is not guitar-driven is
crap" or that "rock has to be kept down to 3 chords and it
can't be well played by good musicians" is like saying that Prog made people think that "rock has to be complex and everything that doesn't have a keyboard is crap" or that "rock has to have as many solos and time signature changes as possible, and can't be well played by anyone who isn't a virtuoso". There are many people who would support one of those ideas, as there are many who would oppose to them.
Edited by Imadofus - February 12 2008 at 23:59
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 22:08 |
Why be so close minded? Punk rock can be really crappy, but it can be really great too. Same with hip-hop, a lot of it is awful but there's definetely some good stuff out there. It's like that with every genre. There's plenty of bad prog, but there's enough good stuff out there to satisfy me.
And what's wrong with grunge? Mudhoney, Dinosaur Jr, Melvins, Nirvana, all that stuff is great.
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reality
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 318
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 21:59 |
I|I|I|I|I wrote:
Wow.Congratulations on your almost frightening ignorance.All genres have their good and bad representatives... and yes, mostly the bad representatives get played on the radio... but to say an entire genre is bad is like deciding a person is bad because they have AIDS. Just because there's something wrong doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.Some bands you should listen to:Stone Temple PilotsNOFXI Mother EarthPrimusTool (early Tool, when they were still Grunge)Saul WilliamsThe StreetsJedi Mind Tricks
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When was Tool ever Grunge? By the way I like early Old School Hip Hop and Punk! The problem with today is the difference between "product" music written in a board room and music (of all genres) that wants to be more authentic. There is music out there that tries to be overly formulaic, to get a broad concenses of buyers. The record company sees that something has worked and pushes it out with the least amount of effort. Plus the average consumer (the age the market to) is age 10 - 13 years old, the product reflects this. You see it in movies, the biggest movie blockbusters often get the razzie award for worst picture of the year. This though is not typified by any genre, they are in all even Prog. So calm down, the underground is a lot easier to access now with the internet.
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asimplemistake
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 840
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 16:50 |
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Taste in music is completely subjective, and nobody's taste is more correct than anyone else's, whether they think it is or not. Different forms of music serve for different purposes, and people should learn to respect other forms of music whether it fits into their tastes or not.
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MAN- ERG
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 12 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 8
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 13:37 |
cacho wrote:
I love prog and classic rock but still I like some alternative bands from now on like Audioslave, Pearl Jam, Blind Melon and from the pop section I like Simply Red and Inxs well it's actually new wave. |
Hi..
Well..... the indie/alternative is one area of music I could never really appreciate. Too rough sounding for me.... What I like about music is the arrangements and the melodies.
But I love a lot of 80s POP bands like SWING OUT SISTER, SADE, KATE BUSH, PET SHOP BOYS, THOMAS DOLBY, PREFAB SPROUT, MORRISEY, THE SMITHS, SIMPLY RED, DOUBLE, TEARS FOR FEARS, LEVEL 42, LISA STANSFIELD...
For POP, I think the 80's where a perfect time : very adult and musically sophisticated with high standards set for POP MUSIC. It's a shame that this kind of sound, this kind of POP was sweapt away in the early 90's. From then on, even POP became crap... target to the adolescent market with a lot of fly-by-night silly things around (forgive me those of you who like it... I don't mean to offend anyone's tastes).
Needles to say that I love 70s ROCK too : VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR, KING CRIMSON, ELP, PINK FLOYD, YES, GENESIS, CAMEL, PFM, GENTLE GIANT, UK, McDONALD & GILES, CROSBY STILLS NASH AND YOUNG, TANGERINE DREAM...
... and in the soul area O'JAYS, TAVARES, EL COCO, DONALD BYRD, LE PAMPLEMOUSSE, BLUE MAGIC, HAROLD MELVIN, HALL AND OATES, MARVIN GAYE, FIRST CHOICE....
There was an excess of good music flying around in the 60s, 70s and 80s. It seems to me that all exceptional music was heavily concentrated in these decades. When it was over, nothing good or new was left for the next decades.
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I|I|I|I|I
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 200
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 13:11 |
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Wow.
Congratulations on your almost frightening ignorance.
All genres have their good and bad representatives... and yes, mostly the bad representatives get played on the radio... but to say an entire genre is bad is like deciding a person is bad because they have AIDS. Just because there's something wrong doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.
Some bands you should listen to:
Stone Temple Pilots
NOFX
I Mother Earth
Primus
Tool (early Tool, when they were still Grunge)
Saul Williams
The Streets
Jedi Mind Tricks
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Go and listen to my music.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31725
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 11:38 |
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I read your post MAN ERG and I really like it it's quite good. Here in Argentina happens the same with electronic music all my friends love that and thinks is great. In all my "parties" I have to dance with that. Okay it maybe good to dance but come on why don't you put The Who or Beatles to dance it's funner and better !
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 11:34 |
Perhaps there are some falls in music but still music is evolving....... Don't make the God of Music angry 
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 11:33 |
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I love prog and classic rock but still I like some alternative bands from now on like Audioslave, Pearl Jam, Blind Melon and from the pop section I like Simply Red and Inxs well it's actually new wave.
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Evans
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 15 2006
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3004
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 11:16 |
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Listen to some Arctic Monkeys and cheer up, boy. You know you want to.
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 'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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avestin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 12625
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Posted: February 12 2008 at 10:01 |
Not much use ranting about it.
Try and get your friends into some "better" music; I try to do it but by bit and it sometimes works. It is inevitable that the majority will go for the mediocre, popular and dull music;
We have the pleasure of listening to fabulous music; Let's do our best to try and spread the word.
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