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Mr ProgFreak 
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 Topic: Epics - How long?
Posted: January 14 2009 at 09:05 |
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^ I'm not really sure that all of those are epics ... for example, I don't think that Get em Out by Friday is one. I'll listen to it again tonight ... I think that a form of A B A (One part, then a completely different part, then the first part is re-visited) is not an epic.
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Einsetumadur
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Posted: January 14 2009 at 09:04 |
 mono wrote:
I voted >15min, because 10min+ tracks can be "overplayed" themes and
solos... To make the 15, you've got to have an epic structure. |
No ney never no more !!!  Canned Heat's "Refried Boogie" runs for over 40 minutes and has nothing to do with prog, and even the progressive "Metamorfosi" by Banco has been stretched to 30 minutes in concert just with extensive jams of the band. The Beatles have fiddled around on "What'd I Say" in the early 60s for an hour, and that was a time when only the influences for the progressive rock were already there.
crimson87 wrote:
Long inprovisations are not epics . Example Focus's Eruption and Anonymus Two. But as I am writting this I also recall that song's with no lyrics like Tangerine dream's Cloudburst Fight can qualify as epic because of the spacey feel. |
Anonymus II, yes.
Eruption, no. Eruption is no epic, but the only improvisation part is the 5-minutes-Bridge in the middle, all the rest ist perfectly composed and planned and doesn't include any variable improvisation parts.
There is the slow creepy "Orfeus" theme, the prog-rock piece "Answer", the soft-psyh guitar solo "Pupilla/Tommy" and finally the bombastic "Euridice", the classical track "Dayglow" and the short drum part "Endless Road". There is no sign for a jam session anywhere; yeah, probably "Endless Road", but with its 1.5 minutes it is rather forgettable in this context.
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All in all each man in all men
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Einsetumadur
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Posted: January 14 2009 at 08:49 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BTW: I voted for 10 minutes. Although I agree that it depends more on the content than on the length, it gets more difficult to tell a musical story in several chapters if your entire track lasts less than 10 minutes ... it's possible though.
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+ Not only possible : Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody, Prophet's Song Camel - White Rider, Song Within A Song Genesis - Get em Out by Friday, The Fountain of Salmacis, Firth of Fifth, One for the Vine, Burning Rope Yes - Starship Trooper, Yours is No Disgrace, And you and I, Sound Chaser King Crimson - Epitaph, In the Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Poseidon ... and many many more. 
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All in all each man in all men
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: January 14 2009 at 08:10 |
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BTW: I voted for 10 minutes. Although I agree that it depends more on the content than on the length, it gets more difficult to tell a musical story in several chapters if your entire track lasts less than 10 minutes ... it's possible though.
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Malve87
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Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:42 |
15 minutes for me:
Atom Heart Mother, Supper's ready, Octavarium, Shine on you crazy diamond (in its entirety is over 15 minutes), Dogs, Echoes, etc... they're all longer than that.
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AlexUC
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 14:25 |
Tapfret wrote:
The epic question requires not an epic answer.
That is: an epic song should end when its over, not after, not before.
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Sure, but... you should quote these Einstein words
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This is not my beautiful house...
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AlexUC
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 14:22 |
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This is not my beautiful house...
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Tapfret
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 13:49 |
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The epic question requires not an epic answer.
That is: an epic song should end when its over, not after, not before.
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Diaby
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 13:44 |
sleeper wrote:
Depends on the band, or at least the point of their career that they are in. Pain of Salvation have never released a song that was over 12 minutes in length, yet I still consider The Perfect Element, People Passing By, Beyond the Pale, Dea Pecunea and Enter Rain to be epics, yet Dream Theater and Flower Kings songs hat are that long I wouldnt consider as an epic song |
You forgot Disco Queen 
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yeah
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 13:36 |
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One interesting case is the second disc of Dirge - Wings Of Lead Over Dormant Seas. It's a 60 minute track with only a few passages which feature vocals. I think it's an epic though, because it's basically describing a long journey with ever changing scenery.
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Anderson III
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 13:30 |
Vompatti wrote:
Even an 8-minute song can be an epic if it has an epic structure and content. On the other hand not all 20-minute songs are epics. An epic should have some kind of a storyline or at least a narrative feel to it (This also applies to the kind of instrumentals that "tell a story" with the music.) Gates of Delirium by Yes is clearly an epic, Get 'em Out by Friday by Genesis is also an epic (even though it's shorter than 10 minutes), but Echoes by Pink Floyd, in opinion, is not, neither is Mirror Man by Captain Beefheart or Sister Ray by Velvet Underground. Basically, a song that hasn't got a developing story cannot be an epic, no matter how long it is.
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If there's an actual "right" answer to the presented question, I think my friend here came up with it.
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 10:20 |
Vompatti wrote:
Even an 8-minute song can be an epic if it has an epic structure and content. On the other hand not all 20-minute songs are epics. An epic should have some kind of a storyline or at least a narrative feel to it (This also applies to the kind of instrumentals that "tell a story" with the music.) Gates of Delirium by Yes is clearly an epic, Get 'em Out by Friday by Genesis is also an epic (even though it's shorter than 10 minutes), but Echoes by Pink Floyd, in opinion, is not, neither is Mirror Man by Captain Beefheart or Sister Ray by Velvet Underground. Basically, a song that hasn't got a developing story cannot be an epic, no matter how long it is.
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Agreed. Some long tracks are indeed just that ... long tracks. I think that in order to be an "epic", a song needs some kind of epic narrative, which is usually a combination of music and lyrics. I think of it as a series of songs which function like chapters of a book - or acts of a play - with some cross references (recurring themes, elements of the story being revisited or reprised). And of course the songs need to be connected musically (seamless connection), otherwise it would simply be a concept album.
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Einsetumadur
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Posted: January 13 2009 at 09:33 |
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... including several musical/lyrical themes that are combined well, sometimes reprised and connected with instrumental parts.
The time doesn't say much about epic/not epic; especially Camel create epics that are sometimes just 5-8 minutes long.
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All in all each man in all men
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topofsm
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 22:08 |
I rarely think of things as epics anymore, because I've been playing and listening to more classical music with my symphony, and often there are plenty of pieces 15+ minutes long and they are standard pieces.
However, this is prog, which you can't really compare with classical music.
An epic in prog to me is a long track (long can depend on anyone's opinion, usually to me it's about 10 minutes) that develops musically and usually carries on several different sections. Reoccuring themes and lyrics often happen, even between long gaps of other music. This also doesn't just mean writing a verse/chorus/verse/chorus song with some extra padding for the intro and between verses, with an extended bridge. In that sense, "The Ministry of Lost Souls" at 14:57 is not an epic to me while "Hessian Peel" at 11:26 seems rather epic. However, I'm used to listening to longer pieces at this point, so the whole "epic" feeling I used to get while listening to "Close to the Edge" is gone, but I still enjoy it.
I voted 15+ just because most songs seem to be epics around that point. However, time doesn't define an epic.
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Abstrakt
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 13:58 |
mono wrote:
I voted >15min, because 10min+ tracks can be "overplayed" themes and solos... To make the 15, you've got to have an epic structure.
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Nope... Listen to "Hallelulwah" by Can. Basically the same thing over and over for 18 minutes   And there's loads of other examples aswell. But i'm voting for 10+, because then i'm not excluding any masterpieces.
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crimson87
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 13:30 |
In my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with aong length , You can feel when a song is epic by it's lyrics and music for example. Karn Evil 9 is not an epic even if it's half an hour long. However , the Third Impression is one of the best epic tracks among the genre and it's under the 10 minute mark.
Long inprovisations are not epics . Example Focus's Eruption and Anonymus Two. But as I am writting this I also recall that song's with no lyrics like Tangerine dream's Cloudburst Fight can qualify as epic because of the spacey feel.
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TGM: Orb
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 13:08 |
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My opinion is that a track can be considered an epic if and only if it tells or implies a story. Personally, I think putting any sort of specific time limit on it has the problem of excluding something because of just a few seconds (for instance, someone says a ten minute + track is an epic, something like The Knife would be left out while something like Voodoo Chile would get in).
Essentially, what Vompatti said, though I would consider Echoes an epic with a developing story, even if an abstract one. Ditto Close To The Edge.
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poslednijat_colobar
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 08:16 |
Over 10 minutes is very long song according to me, but over 15 is composition (or epic)! 
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mono
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 07:48 |
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I voted >15min, because 10min+ tracks can be "overplayed" themes and solos... To make the 15, you've got to have an epic structure.
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Vompatti
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Posted: January 09 2009 at 07:33 |
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Even an 8-minute song can be an epic if it has an epic structure and content. On the other hand not all 20-minute songs are epics. An epic should have some kind of a storyline or at least a narrative feel to it (This also applies to the kind of instrumentals that "tell a story" with the music.) Gates of Delirium by Yes is clearly an epic, Get 'em Out by Friday by Genesis is also an epic (even though it's shorter than 10 minutes), but Echoes by Pink Floyd, in opinion, is not, neither is Mirror Man by Captain Beefheart or Sister Ray by Velvet Underground. Basically, a song that hasn't got a developing story cannot be an epic, no matter how long it is.
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Epics - How long?
