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marktheshark 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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 Posted: August 06 2005 at 18:20 |
 James Lee wrote:
^ oh, come on. You're not promoting democracy in your post, you're just
lashing out at some strange, biased, cartoon image of the "Left" that
you've cobbled together (as if the "Right" is never guilty of
manipulating the system for their own ends...).
Forget about the "Us and Them" mentality for a while. America is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span>
composed of Liberals and Conservatives, despite the best efforts of the
political and media establishment to frame everything in those terms.
As far as the ACLU goes, you can see that my first post on this topic
was critical of them; however, why would you assume that they have an
agenda beyond ensuring the closest possible scrutiny of civil
rights in this country?
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That's just it James. They must have an agenda. Why else would they take the judicial activism route to enforce it? They know damn well that their agenda would never make it through the voting process. The civil rights bill was debated and voted by the legislature. Don't you think the same should be done with any ammendments? You don't see Bush throwing his gay marriage ban ammendment to the courts do you? No, he's taking it to the legislature. For the record, personally I'm against it. To me it's just government going where it shouldn't be going, just leave it to the states. But that's neither here nor there. You've always seemed pretty reasonable. You really approve of this kind of undermining of the people? Even if some conservative agenda were to be enforced this way would still rile me. It's not what our fore-fathers intended.
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 06:46 |
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^ I'm just assuming that the ACLU's only agenda is civil rights, that's
all. Is what they're doing fair? I don't know...I'm not very familiar
with the details of 'judicial activism', but I can't see where it
violates any of the principles of a representative democracy. It seems
to me that the subway searches were implemented without much democratic
process or consideration in the first place. In an ideal democratic
situation, we would have known about the proposed search plan- and the
ACLU should have been trying to block it- before it even went into
effect.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 08:24 |
It seems to me that the democratic process ends at the ballot box (Jeb Bush notwithstanding. )
I dont know about the system in the US but in the UK,the Government proposes a Bill and there is a vote in the House Of Commons.
Problems:
- Unless there is a free vote (a free vote means the MP can vote with his/her conscience) the MP has to vote with his Party.
- The MP has to vote with the government because the Governments employ "Whips" who visit wavering MPs and "convince" them not to embarrass the Party.Even if it is a "free" vote this happens.
- If the Bill is passed it goes before The House Of Lords (unelected body).This is hardly a signal or guarantee of democracy.
- As in the US,Mp's can filibuster Bill to prevent them being discussed and voted on within the allotted time.
- Interested Parties can lobby MPs to vote a certain way,or propose a Bill or influence Government policy.This is not a bad thing per se but the obvious drawback is that it can (and does) lead to corruption.
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NetsNJFan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3047
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 22:33 |
About the left abusing the judicial system, look at the new crop of Federal Judges MarktheShark. A bunch of crusty old Conservatives who would like nothing more than to erase the new deal and return America to the gilded age.
Please don't act like liberal judges are the only activist ones. Look at Janice Rogers Brown. If she had her way we'd have no enviromental laws, no gun laws, no business regulation, no nothing. Oh and she does have her way cause the democrats wimped out and let the vote on her come to the floor. Uchh, awful Judge.
Okay I'm ranting I apologize.
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 23:15 |
NetsNJFan wrote:
About the left abusing the judicial system, look at the new crop of Federal Judges MarktheShark. A bunch of crusty old Conservatives who would like nothing more than to erase the new deal and return America to the gilded age. Please don't act like liberal judges are the only activist ones. Look at Janice Rogers Brown. If she had her way we'd have no enviromental laws, no gun laws, no business regulation, no nothing. Oh and she does have her way cause the democrats wimped out and let the vote on her come to the floor. Uchh, awful Judge.Okay I'm ranting I apologize.
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You're right. I take back the conservative biase I was injecting earlier on this issue. It goes both ways. Look at O'Connor. Reagan put her in there in hopes of her simply interpeting the Constitution and she's flip-flopped all over the place on that. And then there's this recent gay issue the US Supreme Court made a vague call on that I for the life of me can't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Oh well! There's a book that came out a few months ago I intend to read called Men In Black by a lawyer Mark Levin. Big bestseller. Pretty much goes over all this judicial mess that's been going on. He slams both liberal and conservative judges. Should be interesting.
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NetsNJFan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3047
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 23:21 |
marktheshark wrote:
NetsNJFan wrote:
About the left abusing the judicial system, look at the new crop of Federal Judges MarktheShark. A bunch of crusty old Conservatives who would like nothing more than to erase the new deal and return America to the gilded age. Please don't act like liberal judges are the only activist ones. Look at Janice Rogers Brown. If she had her way we'd have no enviromental laws, no gun laws, no business regulation, no nothing. Oh and she does have her way cause the democrats wimped out and let the vote on her come to the floor. Uchh, awful Judge.Okay I'm ranting I apologize.
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You're right. I take back the conservative biase I was injecting earlier on this issue. It goes both ways. Look at O'Connor. Reagan put her in there in hopes of her simply interpeting the Constitution and she's flip-flopped all over the place on that. And then there's this recent gay issue the US Supreme Court made a vague call on that I for the life of me can't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Oh well!
There's a book that came out a few months ago I intend to read called Men In Black by a lawyer Mark Levin. Big bestseller. Pretty much goes over all this judicial mess that's been going on. He slams both liberal and conservative judges. Should be interesting. |
yea its definately both sides. libertarian judges scare me a hell of a lot more than liberal judges tho.
the best ones i think are the Judges who basically have their finger on the political feelings of the nation, the moderate judges who aren't obsessed with pushing their world-view. sometimes constitutionality gets in the way of common sense (on BOTH sides)
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: August 07 2005 at 23:34 |
NetsNJFan wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
NetsNJFan wrote:
About the left abusing the judicial system, look at the new crop of Federal Judges MarktheShark. A bunch of crusty old Conservatives who would like nothing more than to erase the new deal and return America to the gilded age. Please don't act like liberal judges are the only activist ones. Look at Janice Rogers Brown. If she had her way we'd have no enviromental laws, no gun laws, no business regulation, no nothing. Oh and she does have her way cause the democrats wimped out and let the vote on her come to the floor. Uchh, awful Judge.Okay I'm ranting I apologize.
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You're right. I take back the conservative biase I was injecting earlier on this issue. It goes both ways. Look at O'Connor. Reagan put her in there in hopes of her simply interpeting the Constitution and she's flip-flopped all over the place on that. And then there's this recent gay issue the US Supreme Court made a vague call on that I for the life of me can't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Oh well! There's a book that came out a few months ago I intend to read called Men In Black by a lawyer Mark Levin. Big bestseller. Pretty much goes over all this judicial mess that's been going on. He slams both liberal and conservative judges. Should be interesting. |
yea its definately both sides. libertarian judges scare me a hell of a lot more than liberal judges tho.the best ones i think are the Judges who basically have their finger on the political feelings of the nation, the moderate judges who aren't obsessed with pushing their world-view. sometimes constitutionality gets in the way of common sense (on BOTH sides) |
Should be interesting to see what this Roberts fellow is all about. Nobody can seem to pin anything on him. But I'm sure Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden will still be foaming at the mouth on something about him knowing them. 
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NetsNJFan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3047
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Posted: August 08 2005 at 00:02 |
marktheshark wrote:
NetsNJFan wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
NetsNJFan wrote:
About the left abusing the judicial system, look at the new crop of Federal Judges MarktheShark. A bunch of crusty old Conservatives who would like nothing more than to erase the new deal and return America to the gilded age. Please don't act like liberal judges are the only activist ones. Look at Janice Rogers Brown. If she had her way we'd have no enviromental laws, no gun laws, no business regulation, no nothing. Oh and she does have her way cause the democrats wimped out and let the vote on her come to the floor. Uchh, awful Judge.Okay I'm ranting I apologize.
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You're right. I take back the conservative biase I was injecting earlier on this issue. It goes both ways. Look at O'Connor. Reagan put her in there in hopes of her simply interpeting the Constitution and she's flip-flopped all over the place on that. And then there's this recent gay issue the US Supreme Court made a vague call on that I for the life of me can't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Oh well! There's a book that came out a few months ago I intend to read called Men In Black by a lawyer Mark Levin. Big bestseller. Pretty much goes over all this judicial mess that's been going on. He slams both liberal and conservative judges. Should be interesting. |
yea its definately both sides. libertarian judges scare me a hell of a lot more than liberal judges tho.the best ones i think are the Judges who basically have their finger on the political feelings of the nation, the moderate judges who aren't obsessed with pushing their world-view. sometimes constitutionality gets in the way of common sense (on BOTH sides)
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Should be interesting to see what this Roberts fellow is all about. Nobody can seem to pin anything on him. But I'm sure Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden will still be foaming at the mouth on something about him knowing them. |
yea i can't seem to get a grip on Roberts either. Bush is keeping his persona quite secret.
Bottom line he's a conservative, question is how conservative.
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