Post-Prog tag: should we take it seriously?
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Topic: Post-Prog tag: should we take it seriously?
Posted By: Gerinski
Subject: Post-Prog tag: should we take it seriously?
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 06:05
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I had seen the term Post-Prog used occasionally to refer to bands like Muse, Anathema or Porcupine Tree, but I never took it much seriously. I see now in the bandcamp page of Dream The Electric Sheep that they tag themselves as Post-Prog (among a few other tags). http://dtes.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://dtes.bandcamp.com/ Is this term really becoming widespread in the music community? If it starts to become widely used, even by the bands themselves, should PA need to adapt itself?
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Replies:
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 06:59
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http://www.kscopemusic.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.kscopemusic.com/ |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 07:02
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I'm not sure we should. All these extra boxes muddy the waters. Maybe if we had album tagging it would fly - otherwise no. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 07:05
Pretty much everything released after circa 1979 could be deemed 'post prog' methinks...I mean do you take the term 'post baroque' seriously? ------------- 
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 07:20
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there's very little i take seriously. ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 07:35
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neo-post-experimental-aor-rock iften features elements of indiependent/alternative-new wave, noise-minimnslisme-industrial (alternative)-house music. with strong tendancess to also include no wave-post rock-free jazz/nu jazz inntrykk.. Mew is a good example  -------------  
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Posted By: MothTwiceborn
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 07:35
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A friend of mine was talking to a record distributor about a prog band from Ireland. "What kind of prog are they?" Friend shrugs. "Irish prog?" The reply came back sadly: "We don't have a category for that." |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 08:11
PA = Proto Avant  ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 08:12
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Everything from 1980 up until now is Post Prog to me. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 08:17
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Music is good enough for me ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 10:51
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I thought those bands were called 'Nu Prog'? I can't keep up with these tags anymore...it's maddening...(shoots myself) ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 11:00
Yeah that's right - I remember that one as well 'Nu-Prog' I rather prefer Nutella-Prog myself. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 11:17
Yeah, me too. That's why this site can't go for every new label that happens to be popular. |
zravkapt wrote:Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 11:37
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Thanks to all. Yeah, I quite agree with most of the comments and I'm the first not happy with new tags and sub-genres, but I mean, if it's the musicians themselves who start tagging themselves as Post-Prog such as is the case for Dreaming The Electric Sheep, I guess that the term might stick eventually. In the pre-internet age most bands hated tags, they just did the music they felt and they did not like being tagged as this or that, but the internet world with bandcamp, spotify, facebook and such stuff is forcing the musicians themselves to tag their own music for search / like-contents functionalities etc. This is a new aspect of modern music which might deserve its own discussion BTW. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 11:58
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Rock My Wife Can Listen To Rock I Should Listen to Alone Music that has more horns and pianos than guitars Anything with Violins Comedy Those are the genres in my personal collection. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 12:33
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On a serious enough note - and why would you be too serious here, this is PA, and we're talking about a particularly bad label - "post" almost always denotes the experimental, particularly artistic side of a genre. Post-Punk and Post-Hardcore. Post-Rock, to an extent. I even have used the term Post-Emo for some recent bands in that genre, which has the extra bonus that the genre is almost dead. Of course the problem is that the term was brewed up in spite of the fact that most of the genres in question were alive and kicking. And the other big example of a post, Post-Grunge, was hardly experimental; quite the opposite, in fact. Now, we know prog - at least if we use it to denote all progressive music - is alive enough, and is already used to denote a particularly artistic and often experimental grouping of styles... so "Post-Prog" is about as redundant as saying Sahara Desert.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 13:38
What happens when you get a comedy album your wife can listen to? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005  |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 14:03
We brace ourselves for an hour of laughs, as we put on a new album of food-oriented jokes from Jim Gaffigan. (Hot Pockets!) ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 14:52
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The said tag should be taken seriously ONLY if it fits a reality, if there's a given definition of what post-progressive rock is supposed to be. Otherwise, it could appear as a gimmick and a form of advertisement: "Try something new, try something fresh... Try... POST-PROGRESSIVE!" For my part, I tend to think that such a label only exists in the minds of people who don't know very well the history of rock music in general and of progressive rock in particular: to keep the comparison with punk and post-punk, one could say that the Rock In Opposition movement is the "post-progressive" stuff. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 15:51
Indeed, as Nutella also happens to be one of Italy's biggest exports !Anyway, I think the "post-prog" tag is nothing more than a gimmick, used by a particular label to denote its mostly soporific output  . My personal definition for a lot of modern, song-based progressive rock is the "new frontier of prog" - which is probably not as sexy as post-prog, but at least works for me. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 15:54
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^The "new frontier of prog" sounds sexy to me Raff, but I'm am old sentimental fool. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 16:11
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Next, the International Geographical Year of Prog? |
Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 16:14
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I use it all the time (in fact some are crediting me for inventing it, which isn't true), for stuff like what's in this chart. It's a good term because so many prog snobs can't stand Muse and Coheed being called prog (and they're kinda right) http://collage.topsters.net/?id=a8aa0b272edcb176279bb13caf87f9b9 ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 16:31
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Also, on the kscope topic - as someone has already said, it's basically them trying to be all unique and give their bands a title. And it really doesn't help the term, since it becomes harder to define. It can and should be a useful genre name, since the bands in the pic above have a lot of connections but no true genre name. And I do believe DTES putting the tag on their album was my doing, after I called the album a cornerstone of the genre. A few other bands I have reviewed and talked with have done this as well. ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 17:19
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 17:35
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Here is the definition we used to build the essentials chart from: "Post-Prog refers to a style of modern rock
music, emerging in the early-mid 2000’s, evolving from popular 90’s forms of
rock music, predominantly alternative rock, although indie rock and
post-hardcore have major influences, and adding a progressive influence to the
style. Like the original 70’s progressive rock movements, these bands are
taking the sound and stretching it to its structural limits – some only
slightly, and some a great deal. But despite this, their links to the original
progressive rock genre are fleeting, and many have criticised the genre and its
name because of that.
Interestingly, the genre mostly emerged in
the mainstream, with groups like Muse, Biffy Clyro and 30 Seconds to Mars
pushing their radio-friendly sounds to new limits and adding longer songs,
influence from classical music and odd time signatures into the mix. But it was
only later, when The Mars Volta released Deloused in the Comatorium, that
Post-Prog became properly innovative and unique, and more than just “alt-rock
with flair”.
Although split into separate factions
influenced more by alternative rock, post-hardcore or indie rock, all the
post-prog bands shared similar ideologies – taking relatively accessible music
and putting a twist on it that didn’t distort it too much (although The Mars
Volta would later do so, hence their questionable inclusion in the genre. Their
influence on many true post prog bands, however, is undeniable). Some groups,
such as Coheed and Cambria, even found commercial success, with their mix of
accessible songs with ambitious concepts and structures.
Many bands took The Mars Volta’s influence
in different directions, with The Fall of Troy leading a more post-hardcore
influenced group, and Closure in Moscow breeding some poppier, alt-rock versions
of The Volta. Simultaneously, a more alt-rock and riff oriented scene picked up
in Australia, with Karnivool and Cog inspiring legions of Australians (and
later, others) to start up heavy, progressive alternative rock groups that
shared the same ideology as their post-hardcore cousins. The other group of
artists was always much smaller, a group of bands more influenced by Radiohead
and Anathema, and their inclusion under the post-prog banner has always been up
for debate. The Dear Hunter, with their post-hardcore tendencies, were one of
the few bands in that area to undeniably fall under the umbrella." ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 18:45
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No. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 18:55
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Yes!! this is an encyclopedia site. all the site does is collect the data man.. its days of being a front line definer are long over.. as such.. if it gains popular acceptance and/or relevance you deny it only at the risk of whatever credibility the site has left out there in the community after losing most of it.. awarding PT/SW albums albums of the year for so many years running.. AND having a forum where a 4th division prog group like Camel defeats ELP TWICE!! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:27
I respect your opinion but I think that the term "post-progressive" should not be used as a determinant of time (e.g. "after 1979", etc.) because it could not work as for example Neo Prog - it was originaly & strictly British 80s prog phenomenon but now there is a lot of contemporary bands in PA Neo Prog section due to their style.
However, "post-progresive" tag could be useful for a distinctive sound. For example, listen to http://briegguerveno.bandcamp.com/track/skornet-4" rel="nofollow - Skornet by Brieg Guerveno, a singer-songwriter from Saint Brieuc, France (and who actually sings in his native Breton language); that's "post-progressive" sound to me. As for the idea that the PA should have a "post-progressive" section, I think it should have, but I also think that at this moment it is not possible. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:43
I was just being my usual snide and facetious self Svetonio - the baroque part should have alerted you . On a more serious note: If the wider progressive music community (whatever that may be, but which neither Micky or myself are convinced PA plays a part) deems 'post-progressive' as reflecting developments in the real world, then yes, perhaps it does have some value as indicating a distinctive contemporary sound.-------------
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:49
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:51
In discussing this topic with prog fans around the web, most accept that what I have defined as post-prog is a thing and needs to become a thing, most of the skeptics just hate the name. Which is a valid point, the name sucks. A few people think we should call it "Alternative Prog" but that implies a direct fusion of alternative and progressive, which isn't necessarily the case. ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:57
I've heard the term "new prog" used the way you've been using "post-prog".
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 20:59
Yes but we unanimously threw that one out as garbage because a) it's no better and b) people constantly got it mixed up with neo-prog, which is totally different ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:00
"Post-prog" sucks, but "post-progressive" doesn't, imo. "Alternative prog" sucks a lot and without a doubt.
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:10
As a term new prog is a thousand times better than post-prog. Using post prog completely ignores the rules of the usage of the term post in music going back to the late '70's. It is therefore much more confusing than trying to remember the difference between the words new and neo. Remember, post means the experimental edge of a genre. Prog is mainly experimental. Term is therefore redundant and useless. Though for reference, new prog is itself bad by way of it being a very hair-splitting term. It's just an out for haters of Coheed and Muse to separate them as much as possible from symph that somehow has traction outside of those circles. And the confusion between new and neo is of course real. Post prog is just an even worse term for the same thing.
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:21
I'm unaware of this "rule of usage", I must say. Post-, to my knowledge, has always meant a development after a genre that has links to the original but isn't really it. Basically to keep a link to a genre without having to come up with an entirely new name. Post-rock and post-hardcore were hardly "experimental", and post-punk's link to punk music is incredibly vague. I just see it as a bullsh*t term that we use whenever we can't think of a decent name. And let's face it - the hardest part of making new genres is the name. ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:26
Post-Punk only vaguely related to punk? Post-Punk and Post-Hardcore not experimental??? Words fail me. They just fail me. And another thing: even if it's only new trends in a genre... then, as Ian sarcastically said earlier, all modern prog is post-prog. Clearly this term has not been well thought out by anybody.
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:31
There is no such thing as a well thought-out genre term. I think we should just pick one and move on, because as usual, the discussion points towards the name and not the style. The entire point of us pushing post-prog is just because we need a name to work under. There are no rules of genre names nor have there ever been. ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:44
Alright, I'll nominate "alt prog". Really, you have a point in that genre terms are often not well thought out. Post does before "art" mean "after". I'm pretty sure the term prog was just lifted wholesale from the old, freeform radio format that was referred to as Progressive. I just want to make sure things don't get more confusing, but what can I do? Linguistics is linguistics. If "post-prog" lands, then oh well. And no sense letting any of this divide us.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 21:53
Although the fledgling definition you have provided was very thorough and certainly thought provoking, I do have an issue with a couple of points: Like the original 70’s progressive rock movements, these bands are taking the sound and stretching it to its structural limits – some only slightly, and some a great deal. But despite this, their links to the original progressive rock genre are fleeting, I don't get this from listening to Muse or Biffy Clyro (as both use very traditional song structures and rock forms to my ears, which neither stretch to any demonstrable limits plus 'the sound' is divorced entirely from 70's progressive rock movements - BTW how can you 'only slightly' stretch something to its structural limits?) The Mars Volta, by way of contrast, do appear to dispense entirely with historical rock forms on occasion and approach borderline RIO/Avant on something like Frances the Mute. You do however state that links to original Prog are 'fleeting' so kudos are due there. If a band were stretching the structural limits of the original 70's progressive rock movements, I can't fathom why you would predict the resultant music to be relatively accessible and radio friendly? Given the pivotal role that you afford TMV in the creation of a genre they spearheaded, I don't understand how their very inclusion would now be open to question? (Is this like the opposite of Genesis going from Prog to Pop?) Isn't 'post-progressive' just another way of demarcating progressive rock groups who sound neither like 1st Gen early 70's Prog or the Post-Punk/indie/alt brigades that followed? Surely the plain vanilla rock music of the likes of Muse and Biffy Clyro is malleable enough to withstand the sort of developments you describe withour recourse to demanding yet another label being stuck on the jar?. -------------
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Posted By: Gallifrey
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 23:37
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Muse and Biffy are the origins of the sound, Muse in alt-rock, Biffy in post-hardcore/math rock. Aside from select moments they are debatable within the actual genre, but they certainly inspired a lot of bands in it, and even then you can hear their complexity. Biffy use an absolute ton of odd time signatures, even in their more radio friendly recent material. Muse obviously have the classical influence in their songs and although neither bands go on for big epics or too many different structures (although both have a good number of songs that aren't straight verse/chorus ones), they have their own kind of complexity that pushes beyond what radio rock is known for, be it piano solos or tight, mathy instrumental parts or songs that go through a few styles. Part of the reason I'm pushing this term is because some uninformed journalists started calling these subtle complexities "progressive rock", which is just plain wrong. Post-prog, in my opinion, shouldn't really be considered part of progressive rock, although there are some bands certainly overlap into true prog. The Mars Volta are a weird one - I feel like throwing them in there simply because they influenced the genre so much, but they themselves are far, far too "out there" to be considered part of the accessible-yet-sublty-complex umbrella. ------------- http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/ |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 12 2015 at 23:39
| I don't even take prog seriously.... |