Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
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Topic: Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
Posted By: Atavachron
Subject: Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog?
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 06:16
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Forget about whether it "killed prog", which it didn't, it did digress or at least regress rock to a point of astounding if roughly-cut clarity. There are a few rare instances of prog/art rockers dabbling in and
eventually turning to punk, such as the Goldring twins (Gnidrolog)
going on to become the Pork Dukes, and styles of progressive rock that
clearly draw from punk, like mathrock. But was Punk rock a continuation of the development of rock as a from of music that apparently has few boundaries other than that it retain some semblance of a rock format? Or was it just a crude rebellion that struck a chord in a lot of people? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Replies:
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 06:33
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I opt for the latter. Punk was a rebellion against rock music that had become too complex for some to handle. Not a continuation of the development of rock; that sounds to my ears like civilization developing to become barbarism. Punk might be called rock in opposition properly. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 06:34
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Punk - no. Post-punk - certainly. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 06:57
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 07:37
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It was not a continuation, in my opinion, it was a rebellion against not only the 70s music but the attitude and lifestyle as well. It was anti everything that came before. Their style (or anti style) of clothes, hair-dos and life style reflected their rebellion against everything. There was even punk food. Their music was broken down to basic power chords played loud and obnoxiously. Their vocals, and overall stage performances were intentionally chaotic. Their overall attitude was that they didn't plan on, or even want to, live beyond their youth.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 07:43
 Punk was not a big youth movement. There is no denying that it had far-reaching affect on the music scene but it was a relatively small genre of music followed by a relatively small number of people over a very brief period of time. Those most affected by it were the music journalists whose written "history" of this time many people today get their perceptions from. The music-makers followed on from that, they were not going to create and promote music that these journalists would not write about, but these music-makers (and by that, the music industry) did not start producing Punk Rock as a result of that. By a process that evolutionary biologists call punctuated equilibrium the advent of the Punk ethos within the music scene created a step-change that found a new stable equilibrium state that bore no relation to the trigger that Punk instigated. This stable state was what we called at the time New Wave and encompassed a wide gamut of music subgenres that were more readily adopted by a larger proportion of youth than Punk had managed to reach, many of these emergent subgenres were themselves the antithesis of Punk. Even bands that had been closely associated with the Punk movement of 1976 were quick to create post-punk new-wave music that had no direct relationship with Punk Rock. It is this post-punk new-wave ethos that many pre-punk musicians adopted, if not wholly musically, at least in style, image and attitude - if only as a result of getting their hair cut short, wearing narrow trousers and thin ties. While it was amusing to see Peter Gabriel perform a Punk version of White Shade Of Pale on stage, the stripped-back music he recorded on his albums owed more to applying New Wave attitudes to his Progressive music background than any slim-pickings he could glean from Punk Rock. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 08:24
And yet within less than a year corporations and people out for money figured out how to market to them and even brought in crappy musicians just so they could fit the aesthetic and make money. What I'm saying is that punk is definitely not punk. Rock in Opposition was the last punk rock imo.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 08:27
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 08:29
------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 08:32
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I believe the so-called hippy movement circa 1967 was at the source a genuine manifestation of a firm disavowal of the types of obsolete values bequeathed to a post WW2 generation. History teaches us that even an unimpeachable past will be rejected as false, hollow and reactionary to any subsequent generation. (This might be deemed churlish, but is healthy and testimony to a questioning, irreverent and intelligent demographic who refuse to recycle the mistakes of history - albeit this rebellion is self evidently cyclic in nature) Such a cultural groundswell is rare in our republicanised and commodified world and seems to take a planet ravaging global conflict to bring about alas.... We should of course cherish such a response as befitting a faint vestige of consumer sovereignty whenever such rears it's plebeian head. I actually agree with Dean here i.e. Post Punk could be considered a logical However, even by the routinely Olympian level standards of crass revisionist drivel that Dean normally churns out, the notion that the cart (punk journalists i.e. Sounds) were driving the horse (musicians circa 1976 onwards) smacks of someone crow-barring the world's most inane yet tempting pun into an argument (Punk - tuated Equilibrium geddit?) ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 08:56
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:05
Both of us can articulate our ideas without recourse to graphics that would indicate otherwise erm.... I've just agreed with you re the Post Punk comment but the toys are out the cot otherwise? -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:18
The Punk explosion seemed to form for different reasons on either side oft the Atlantic. In NYC, the punk craze seemed to be a NYC reaction to the past Greenwich Village folk scene and the ensuing disco craze. I think that the punk scene in the U. K. was fueled more by economic and social issues that existed in U. K. at that time, and was more of a socio-cultural reactionary statement, than just a change in music trends, as was the case in the U.S. Do you feel my view has any merit?
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:25
Any articulated view has merit c/f a lazy hippy c.u.n.t.'s complacent pejorative graphic. Yes, the UK Punk phenomenon (notwithstanding its McLaren engineered caesarian birth was a political phenomenon c/f the bohemian/aesthetic ethos of the US version as evidenced by Patti Smith, Richard Hell, Television et al) -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:29
I'm just a little puzzled by the mildly vitriolic flavour of the words you chose "...the routinely Olympian level standards of crass revisionist drivel that Dean normally churns out..." would perhaps raise an eyebrow from me in response if spoken to me in a pub after a few brews, but on an impersonal internet forum an "erm" will suffice. As to putting the cart before the horse I would ask you where you gained your knowledge of the music scene at the time if it were not solely from the music press? As a regular reader of both the NME and Sounds from the early 70s through to the late 80s (less so the Melody Maker and Rolling Stone), I was suckered in by the opinions that the journalists would seem fit to write in those publications, until I realised how quick they were to turn on any band or artist who had the temerity to be "popular"... the time-honoured backlash that they heaped upon the Prog artists of the 70s was soon levelled at the 80s new-wave artists who failed to pander to them. If it it is revisionist to hold up these music journalists for scrutiny, and to take them to account for the less-than-impartial attitude they had to various bands and genres of music then so be it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:34
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^This is another tricky part of the puzzle, the way the music media jumped on the punk band wagon without thinking for a single second. But it's secondary for the reason for punk's origins, is it not? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:41
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The entire "punk vs. prog" rivalry is something that I in real life have never ever heard anyone under the age of 40 remark on or even show any familiarity with. The few people I discuss music with on a regular basis with in real life actually come from the crust/grind/hardcore punk milieu here in Denmark, and because of stuff like Botch or Dillinger Escape Plan most of those types are also into more technically involved and ambitious music. That's even before you consider that in Denmark and Sweden the people involved in the death metal and grindcore (a particularly extreme punk subgenre) undergrounds are at the grassroots level mostly the same individuals, so they're neither turned off by fantastic subject matter. For an example, check out http://pissvortex.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - this band I'm friends with in real life, the hilariously named Piss Vortex who are very strongly inspired by technical prog metal in the Gorguts and Voivod vein only with their innovations adapted to a grind/hardcore context instead. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:46
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^ I wish I could say I had the same experience! I actually had friends that jumped from Prog straight onto the punk bandwagon, without blinking an eye. The first inkling that I had of how superficial some people can be in regard to trends in art. Btw, these phonies are no longer my friends. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:52
Yes, but I have not spoken of Punk's origins, that to me is immaterial. This topic is related to what came after since Punk per se was not a logical extension of Prog in they way that post-punk new-wave was. Even what little Punk remained became detached from its disaffected and rebellious blue-collar beginnings.
------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:56
Why do you defend the natural inclination of any subsequent demographic to reject the values of the previous regime as evidenced by music journalism? Not all of us are 'suckered in' by someone who is paid to pronounce that popularity = death of credibility. If you were a regular reader of both NME and Sounds circa early 70's to late 80's (that's 20 years stubborn refusal to bow to peer group pressure, way to go boyo) is this somewhow indicative that cherry picking to conclude that music you profess to loathe is popular therefore it sucks?. How exactly do bands pander to journalists to become more popular? Are immoral acts inveigled in this scenario? -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 09:59
Is this not relevant to the OP's question?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:11
Growth yes, origins no. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:18
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. In another thread I suggested that the apparent trend of music to skip a generation was a generalisation. We are not all born into discrete demographics or generations that can be nicely compartmentalised and pigeon-holed, just as the music scene didn't instantly change from 70s music to 80s music at the stroke of midnight on 31st December 1979. I do not profess anything, nor do I accuse the music journalists of cherry-picking, backlashes were common at the time, it was practically a national sport and had been for as long as I can remember, the phrase "sell out" had been levelled at artists since the 60s. While I never said that bands pander to journalists to become more popular, snubbing a journalist was never a good career move unless your continued success and popularity was assured, and even then it could be unwise. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:22
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:39
Agreed. I have said it wasn't. I think the confusion comes from the notion that Punk has a wider connotation than simply the music that emerged in 1976 and all but disappeared in the space of a few short months. By the time most of those early Punk bands came to record their début albums they too had moved on. What the general public saw as Punk Rock was in reality post-punk new wave. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:43
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^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 10:52
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I find it interesting to consider that the first British album to call itself "punk" (Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance) was also very much a progressive rock album. I also think a lot of proto-punk, a-la The Velvet Underground/Lou Reed ventures into avant territory which while not necessarily progressive rock, there was some overlap. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:19
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television. I'm not sure if "real punk" ever fully existed, the DIY Punk ethos by its very anti-consumerism was destined to appeal to a very limited audience. Even later hardcore punk bands like Crass (formed in 1977, so I reserve the right to call them "later") were at the Performance-Art end of the DIY Punk spectrum. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:28
Hmm. I suspect that Hammill was using the 'juvenile delinquent' meaning of the term, regarding Rikki Nadir as a street punk making music. Rael in Lamb Lies Down On Broadway was a street punk, as were the rival gangs in West Side Story. ------------- What? |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:41
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This is the kind of debate that is very hard, because there is no objective defination to what is punk, proto punk, post punk ect. And there can be many different answers that could be subjectively correct. Based on where you live, what sources you had access to, and how you define your criteria.The Punk "movement" was not big is my homeland, but it was not only "punks" that did listen to the music. Few liked the Pistols, but there was a lot of people that liked The Clash, basicly because the music was better, and where I come is was quite normal that you like both Peter Gabriel, The Clash, Floyd Kate B, ect. No one was interested in defining genre, we just liked music, lots of diffrent music. I loved the early Pere Ubu albums back them, but i couldent care less if it was punk or prog.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 11:54
In my country it was a big youth movement, and I saw the same thing in such a big centres as Paris and New York as well - even more than in London (maybe because the Punk origins were imported from USA to UK actually).
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:04
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To answer the OP, there was a lot of diffrent music, not just Prog and Punk, and the turn into a simple and raw rock, was not unexpreted, and not new either. The new thing was that the press was pissing its pans over it this time. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:13
In Copenhagen i think it was not much more than a few 100 punks in late 76-78, but is grew bigger when they (we) started Squatting, but that was in the 80's, and its was more "Cure and U2" than punk music, (but there was some punky music played) ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:26
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:37
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:50
It is hard to see what effect the punk scene in Paris or the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had on Progressive Rock and vice versa, regardless of how big it was in those respective countries. Yup, Punk was imported into the UK from New York. No one can deny that fact, and in fact, no one is claiming that Punk was invented in the UK, if it had been we would have probably called it Yob Rock. The back-to-basics reaction to Prog in the UK prior to that was Pub Rock, as typified by Bees Make Honey, Dr Feelgood, The Stranglers, The 101ers, Ducks Deluxe et al. This was itself influenced by garage rock from the USA and British R&B of the 1960s. Wilko Johnson's staccato guitar playing was in turn influential on Tom Verlaine's guitar style... nothing is created in a vacuum. The Punk scene in the UK and the music it spurned was radically different to that of the USA, just as British Psych developed in ways that USA Psych failed to do. Parisian Punk... whatever did that achieve? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:51
This is not about fashion, it's about music. Kate Moss wearing a punky t-shirt is NOT Punk Rock. ffs. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 12:57
I don't know, it seems as though tracks like the title track, Nobody's Business and Birthday Special certainly have punk-rock leanings. I think it was a little more than just the persona. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:17
Hmm... it's been a while since I played the album but as I recall there is a lot more going on in those tracks than three-chord riffing. He may have been aware of the New York punk scene that was emerging at the time, though I'm not sure how or why he could have. But you could be right. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 13:41
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:13
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I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc) ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:17
I never saw punk as an extension of anything but more as a rebellious juvenile delinquent version of basic rock and roll.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:32
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:33
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 17:08
The Modern Lovers and the original Suicide, both back in 1970. That or Dick Dale. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 18:11
No he doesn't. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 19:55
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:18
Yup. You are getting real good at quoting posts. Shame they do not illustrate the point you are trying to make. That quote does not say, or even fncking imply, that I saw "bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators." There is a difference between real punks and those who originated punk. Television were instrumental in the formation of the New York punk scene but the music they played and especially what they recorded on their début album was not Real Punk, it wasn't even Punk:
What is Real Punk about that? ------------- What? |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:29
Marquee Moon definitely gives label-happy types headaches; while Television started off playing punk back in the early '70's - Richard Hell being in the band at the time, no less - for the debut the guitar lines instead borrowed from the kind of interplay typically inherent in jazz and lacked the particular power chords punk almost always thrives on. So, rather than being punk or any kind of ___-punk, you could probably call it some experimental alt rock. -------------  
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:09
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As to who the 'original' punks might have been in the UK (or if anyone really cares as Dean has already stated, their music had all the staying power of a soap bubble) Maybe: Slaughter & the Dogs, Chelsea (circa Right to Work), Siouxsie & the Banshees (the unsigned incarnation with Sid Vicious on drums), the Damned (circa New Rose), Stiff Little Fingers, the Adverts, UK Subs, the Saints (albeit relocated from Australia), Discharge, Generation X (with Billy Idol), Buzzcocks (circa Orgasm Addict), the Subway Sect and erm...the Cortinas?! All were unstintingly s.h.i.t.e and that's probably also true for their US equivalents. (that's NOT the likes of the Stooges, MC5, VU etc as I can see the vestiges of their influence in all rock bands) I mean audible mucus like the Dead Boys, the Ramones, the Misfits, the Lurkers, Black Flag etc All said and done, Punk was more about a confrontational take on activism than any enduring musical legacy. It's year zero Maoist fervour was valuable in as much as it prepared the soil for the real musical seeds to bloom into the fragrant bouquet of Post Punk (probably my favourite time period in music) I've posted this quote before but just for the sake of clarity: Tom Verlaine felt Television were not part of any so-called punk movement. "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones."
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:30
Nice. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:35
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No. |
Posted By: sublime220
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:37
 
------------- There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark... |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:38
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Just to illustrate how the punk movement was big in my country and how much Punk was popular in former Yugoslavia, here's a feature film Dečko koji Obećava ("The Promising Boy") about the punk movement in former Yugoslavia that was a big hit in cinemas across the country in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE (English subtitles, drama genre). The members of Belgrade's post-punk band Šarlo Akrobata - already in Prog Archives as an "avant-prog" act what always make me laugh - are also starring in this film. Released in 1981, it was one of the first feature films with the theme of Punk ever filmed. Not that much feature 'punk-movies' was filmed before Yugoslav "The Promising Boy", as e.g. British film Jubilee with Adam Ant from 1977, Rock'n'Roll Highschool, an American comedy with The Ramones from 1979, Dutch movie Cha Cha with Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen from 1979 and the British film Breaking Glass with Hazel O'Connor from 1980. In February 1981, one of the major record companies in former Yugoslavia, Jugoton, released a punk / post-punk compilation album titled http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnplZERqvXo" rel="nofollow - Paket Aranžman ("Package Deal") with the songs of the most popular Yugoslav punk / post-punk bands; that album sold tremendously well to this day, as it reached a cult status. Both mentioned film and the compilation were a final "victory" of Punk aesthetics here. As a music genre, Punk in my country represented a complete break with the Progressive rock because young bands were completely turned into punk and (or) post-punk. Progressive rock in my country has not yet recovered from Punk hysteria then gripped the former Yugoslavia in late 70s / early 80s. A few days ago, a former Yugoslav punk rocker (who also starring with his band in "The Promising Boy" the movie), Vlada Divljan from "Idoli" ("Idols") died by cancer at 57. As a young man he was one of the pioneers of the punk movement here, and the government is seriously considering to declare a day of mourning in the capital of Serbia. That's how big youth movement it was here.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:53
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Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone. P.S. and to the OPs query, no, punk was neither logical nor an extension of prog. It was the antithesis of prog, and also the corporate rock/AOR crap that was eating up more and more radio airtime.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:56
Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it. -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:07
Patti Smith, The Ramones, Blondie and Television all got very favorable reviews from RS at the time. As long as punk was from the NY scene, it received good reviews. I don't recall how RS responded to British punk, however. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:22
Marquee Moon got props from Stone because, as I mentioned earlier, the standard punk sound just was not there. The magazine also had a love-hate relationship with Blondie, being that while, again, not the usual punk, their albums did fluctuate in quality. Meanwhile, they trashed the self-titled releases from the New York Dolls and Suicide, were lukewarm towards VU, didn't even like Lou Reed's Transformer, let alone Berlin, and have even to this day ignored The Dictators. Horses and Ramones were the first times they ever gave any punk, let alone NYC punk, a favourable ear. Even then, once the Sex Pistols blew up England for a time, the mag still found itself playing catch-up for awhile, as is now custom for them. -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 05:37
WOW that's a really great post although my own experience growing up at the time was that punk was exciting because it had energy while New Wave was a bit of a yawn to me. I loved ELP at the time because they were exciting and energetic ( based admittedly on earlier albums not Works) and I saw much to like in The Sex Pistols for the same reasons. However the whole ethos that surrounded punk stunk to high heaven (imo) and New Wave as you suggest had the sort of commercial future that punk didn't.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:13
Notwithstanding the engineered spin contributed by opportunists like Malcolm McLaren, Richard Hell, Anya Phillips et al what guiding beliefs or ideals (ethos) did you have an issue with that surrounded Punk? -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:34
^Poor hair hygiene In many ways you could say that punk rock was the new "prog rock" when it emerged. Sure they took bits and pieces from the 50s RnB scene and sped them up, but it was still a brand new sound - something that hadn't been done before (*cough* The Stooges *cough*). In that respect, they did the same as the proggers of 69 did when they progressed the rock template. Music doesn't need to be complex or hard to play in order to be cutting edge or indeed progressive. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:38
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Two completely different music genres that I really like for completelly different reasons. I can't see the connection though |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:42
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Punk - a definite reaction to Prog. Perhaps they're musicians who aren't technically adept, and the singers aren't trained vocalists, but they made a noise, and everyone heard it !! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:43
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I love both as well Sam. I think the supposed "war" between the two is far more real in the mind of music journalists with a computer access than it is to those who actually lived through those years. I have some old school punk friends who certainly think so.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:44
The second sentence quoted above I applaud heartily as for the first, you clearly emerged from a diabetic coma in the interim -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:53
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The first one was rather tongue-in-cheek matey ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:06
We can but remain eternally grateful you are not a surgeon by trade -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:08
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Come on now - every surgical room would brighten up with a bit of John Cleese and funny shoes thrown into the mix. Focus a little more on the yang ya dig? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:12
I dig, I dig. -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 07:19
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You gotta love this place. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:09
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:12
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:53
| ^ Schick rock? |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 09:58
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Just like ExitTheLemming said earlier, punk seems to function as a "cultural movement" first and a genre of music second in a lot of places, so quite a few artists who don't fit musically into the associated style get embraced by the subculture as part of it for reasons that are more sociological than anything else. Television's a good example of that, being more of an eccentric garage rock band whose fanbase happened to come mostly from the subculture gathered around the CBGB circuit. Same situation with The Fall for that matter, if you wanna see an example from my side of the Atlantic.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:12
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Dean's comments ring true to me, about how small it really was. Despite the consistant baying of every music publication of the day, there were just a handful of kids at school getting into the whole punk/new wave thing. 95% of the student body just wanted their Who, their Angus, and their JimmyP. Everyone listened to hard rock and very few cared who Johnny Rotten was. Even as regards prog, the established prog and prog related bands had more fans than did the punk bands. It wasn't until later, by the time MTV was getting huge, that the "new" sound would rival Mr. Townshend and Mr. Page in terms of popularity in those high schools halls around here. ------------- |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:15
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:16
Well.. no. It has sod all to do with semantics. Throwing "semantics" back at me every time you make an incorrect assumption or misconstrue something is not a get out of jail free card.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:21
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^We will continually disagree on this Dean, as I'm more interested in discussing music then playing with academics. We both have different priorities and it's better just to give each other space and move on. Agreed?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:29
No. Not agreed. It has nothing to do with "academics" or "semantics" or any other weasel-words you care to mention. You claimed I said something that I never actually said. Just admit it then you can move on. And btw. The whole Television side-track that this thread had careered off on is irrelevant. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:33
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Very well then. Back on Topic everyone, Dean is not amused! I hope that helped.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 10:56
It is all about perception. Things seem bigger when you're smaller. People born in 1963/4 would be entering their formative teen years in 1976/7 just as punk "exploded" on the music and subculture scene. As I'm sure we all remember from being that age, whatever interests you at that time not only tends to stay with you for your whole life, it becomes your entire world, often to the exclusion of all else. In this thread we have two distinct age groups from that era - those who were entering their teens during the "prog" and "psych" eras and those who were entering their teens during the "punk" era and while that hasn't produced a totally polarised view of the period from 1976 to 1977, it has shown a difference in perception. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 11:34
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 11:45
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Oh I certainly recognize its influence on later music, but I think prog also had an influence on later pop artists which may be unrecognized because punk seems to be favored more by music writers. Would many of the "colorful" 80s bands have embraced such flamboyance and freedom without prog pushing boundaries a decade earlier? Maybe, maybe not. ------------- |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 11:48
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^ The particular colour I believe you're referring to is taken from glam, not prog. -------------
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 11:50
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That too, yes, but prog rock also. I think the musical artistry of an album like Synchronicity owes something to prog rock. ------------- |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 12:01
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^ To be honest, that statement, to me, reeks of saying that everything artful in rock must come from prog or a connection to it. Synchronicity does have those connections, mainly "Mother"'s guitar line taking many tidbits from Fripp's guitarwork, but that album was very much a genre stew in the new wave idiom. The artistry of it I wouldn't attribute to prog. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 12:09
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 12:41
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 12:52
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^Wakeman's capes were part of the Yes concert experience! Now, as the boss said before, back to the topic.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 14:37
I wasn't being pedantic. If they have to be categorised, Television are a rock band who stripped away a lot of the habitual blues vocabulary from their music which gave it a somewhat unique sound for the time. No more, no less. -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 15:00
Have to agree with most of this but as for the reasons, things get a tad blurry hereabouts. As Dean has correctly pointed out already, Punk's musical legacy was rudimentary and meager at best, until such time as we reached circa '79 and the so-called Post Punk artists emerged. I guess that what Punk bequeathed to music were the sorts of values I personally still hold dear e.g. discipline, brevity, economy, focus, structure etc in stark contrast to the spacey improvs and lengthy noodly meanderings that afflict some of the worst Prog. It also probably goes without saying that Punk was accessible so that anyone with a very basic set of chops and a cheap guitar could join a band with like minded souls without being subjected to ridicule or having to attend a conservatoire beforehand. Similarly, the subject matter was considerably more pragmatic, prosaic and political (at least in the UK) than the sort of conceptual tangents so beloved of Sinfield, Anderson, Gabriel, Lake et al. Prog was effectively overripe and rotting by circa 1974/75 and had lost much of its customer base. I'm still unsure what deserting Prog fans started to listen to instead between then and the end of the decade? -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 15:19
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don't forget, Metal wouldn't be he same if it weren't for Punk either, |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 15:40
Television has to be categorized for practical reasons under a defined genre. How you or I care to describe the group's music or sound is beside the point. The aim of my question to you was to emphasize that categorizations are just too limiting for something as diverse and broad in application and scope as music. Any music. Any genre.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 15:54
Not sure I fully understand the subtle nuances at play here: You appear to be saying that categorising any music is futile because there is simply too much diversity and divergence that cannot be bundled neatly into a defining box. Yes, I would subscribe to that view, plus I like to think we both also recognise our practical need to use a 'broad brush' range of Prog genre definitions on PA to organise the database. BUT We have to define a non Prog artist that has no business being included on PA? For the purposes of the discussion thread, Television were not in any shape or form a Punk band. If push came to shove, I'd hazard: Proto Post Ante Punk with Literary leanings (that's just me having fun )-------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 20:30
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Punk got co-opted fairly quickly by the music industry and was turned into sterile mush within a few years. The fashionably unfashionable look and attitude remained, but the music went to hell. It seems the record companies' subversion of musical trends was a phenomena that picked up steam in the late 70s. Maybe they had perfected it by then. It was evident, of course, in the 60s (American Monkee mop-tops aping the Brit Beatles, for instance), but rock music was more volatile in the 60s and early 70s, and less subject to cookie-cutter assembly lines vomiting out either MTV synth players with bad hair and an emo tendency to whine, or big-haired, bandana-wearing pseudo-tough guitarists with band names that reflected vermin, lewd body parts or parasitic insects. Video did indeed kill the radio star, because, if I remember correctly, all the revolutionary stations in the Detroit area had either changed their formats to country music, reclassified themselves as "classic rock" stations (which I despise), or became homogenized purveyors of offal by the late 70s. If you wanted to hear punk at all (or prog that wasn't a hit single, for that matter), it would have to be in college dorm rooms. That's where I heard punk first, to be honest.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 21:29
This is more or less what I was inquiring about in the OP. I like the discussion that ensued, though. Of course the more obvious choice for an heir to the prog sound would be Disco with its orchestral arrangements, electronic liberties, and extended tracks. But Disco wasn't rock, as the early discos in NY that we associate with glitter balls, polyester, hair spray, big shoes and lots of jewelry, were initially gay clubs that became popular with the straight communities and eventually went mainstream. The music was largely black-oriented dance and Soul. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 21:59
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 07 2015 at 23:07
Late 70s New Wave of Metal was the fusion of Hard Rock and Punk. Actually, that was the kind of metal from which emerged the Prog Metal with all of its today's corresponding sub-genres and the styles from post-metal to djent. The debut LP by former Yugoslav band Vatreni Poljubac ("The Passionate Kiss"), released in October 1978 and titled Oh, što te volim, joj ("Oh, I love you, oh!") is a perfect example of that fusion of hard rock and punk.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2015 at 03:58
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This discussion doesn't need a soundtrack. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 08 2015 at 04:01
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No it doesn't, especially with my Reagan-era computer ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |