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Neal Morse - An Agnostic's View

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Topic: Neal Morse - An Agnostic's View

Posted By: Lowend
Subject: Neal Morse - An Agnostic's View
Date Posted: July 10 2015 at 21:10

I like Neal Morse. I think he writes good music. I have noticed a few reviews which have been critical of his work due to his preaching. As an agnostic, you'd think that would bother me but it doesn't. I actually admire him for having the courage to put it out there even though I may not share his views. I don't think that should detract from his music. It's just his opinion. I can understand not liking his music but I can't understand not liking it because of the lyrics. My main focus in prog is the compostion and instrumentation. Let the dialog begin .......

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Lost in trance of dances, as rhythm takes another turn

Replies:

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 10 2015 at 21:56

I don't know so much from Neal Morse besides Transatlantic, and I haven't really payed so much attention to the lyrics to identify something particularly preachy that would bother me, but even if he got all religious on his messages, I don't really care, as long as the music is good. What does bother me is artists that include satanic lyrics... it may seem exagerated, but I do try to avoid those ones.

Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 10 2015 at 21:58

He seems to make good music--good composer--I just find myself listening and then feeling . . . nothing. I re-try listening to his albums cuz I feel I should, but I never feel compelled to add them to my playlists or rave about them to others. It's like hearing music that has already been done.

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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: July 10 2015 at 22:08

I've always found the accusations of Morse `preaching' on his albums completely innacurate. There's a massive difference between singing about something that means a lot to you or something you believe in (which is what Morse does) as opposed to `You MUST believe this, you MUST do that', which would be forcing his view, and he has never done that. Some non-believers really let this confusion get under their skin!

As it is, although he can sometimes be a little schaltzy or cheesy, the guy is simply one of the best songwriters in modern prog from a melodic point of view. Memorable melodies, slick harmonies, singalong qualities - there's plenty of bands that could talk a page out of his book (in this case that would probably be the bible!

) and focus on those qualities more than instrumental show-boating.

Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 00:49

The fact is that many people are just so ill-disposed toward religion in general (or Christianity in particular) that they'll have reflexively hostile reactions to anything that reeks of faith, whether it's truly preachy or not. And that's fair enough; people are entitled to their opinions, and whatnot. But they still sometimes call such music "preachy," because that's an acceptable way of saying, "It has to do with religion and I don't like it."

For the record, I don't mind the religiosity in Morse's lyrics, since I share many of his beliefs. I do think his lyrics are pretty spotty in terms of quality, but that's another matter.

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"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 01:54

I have written it some months ago. Since he is sincere, I am absolutely not disturbed by his lyrics even if I'm an atheist.

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com

Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 04:58

We can deny his songwriter skill and his passion for true symphonic prog rock, as for his religious lyrics, they have a impact on his music, because to me the lyrics are part of the whole music and the meaning of those lyrics have also a impact on my appreciation of his music. As time goes by, i have realize that there is something missing in his music that i can't put my fingers on, probably a sense of "deja-vu" and that i lose patience listening to 20 minutes epic, while i am still seduce by this kind of music. Fortunately, i listen to other genre of Prog Rock music and will still keep a eye on Morse's work, but not with the same enthusiasm i had with his first albums.

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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 05:32

Being a Christian myself, obviously I have no problems with his lyrics.
Nor with his music BTW.
To be honest: I avoid most music with Christian lyrics because the music doesn't appeal to me at all.
Neal Morse's music is a positive exception.

Posted By: AlanB
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 06:11

What Moogtron III said.

Though I also have some sympathy with those who've said that his music can get a bit repetitive. I think his best work was the One, ? and Sola albums. Much of what came after that hasn't really hit the heights of those three albums for me (though still pretty good).

Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:03

I don't believe in Neal Morse. He is a remnant of ancient tribal cult worship.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:31

I'm not really bothered by Morse's lyrics. He has a great voice, composes excellent material, is a great showman, is quite accomplished on every instrument he touches - what's not to like ? He plays tritones - why isn't he banished ??

I don't understand how some folks are so irritated by religious themed lyrics - they are but one person's view/perception. Good luck to those who've discovered a higher 'self' by divine profoundness.

Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 08:44

For the most part, I'm not put off by Morse's preachiness in his lyric. What gets me is that this artist too frequently resorts to the standard evangelist words, phrases, and verbal imagery instead of coming up with something refreshing, or, dare I say, inspirational.

His music can be brilliant at times. His words don't elevate to the same level.

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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 09:34

I think Neal Morse is a very prolific composer, but must of his music follows the same formula. Even though is quite intricate and very well orchestrated, you can almost predict the changes he is going to make, the direction the music will take, and all the endings of his long pieces have pretty much the same, making it quite repetitive and after a while, not very much entertaining. I don't want to criticize him, I think he is a great man and a very talented musician, and I don't mind his Christian views and opinions (I have my own and I know it takes some courage to come out and express them the way he does), but at the same time, his music has become quite stagnant and not quite innovative.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:02

Sorry, but Morse is like a broken record to me. Too repetitive in his lyrical themes.

I have nothing against a pro God/religious/worship or whatever song, but not all the time.

Benedictus by the Strawbs would be my favorite of this type of material, but Dave Cousins quickly moved on after this opening track from the album Grave New World.

Posted By: san0648
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:22

I love Morse. I'm an atheist.

It's not the religious/preachy stuff that bothers me, but the fact that his lyrics are pretty much only christian, makes me want time away. It's not the subject matter, its just the lack of other subjects.

It bothers me a little when artists pretty much sing about only one or two types of subjects in their songs.

Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 10:49

I don't mind the Christian lyrics. I do mind that Neal's lyrics are cliché. I can tune out the lyrics if the music mesmerized me.

The deal breaker for me is- Each time I audition one of Neal's albums, I get excited about the music only to find myself bored after 5-10 minutes. Like an earlier poster said, " I can't put my finger on what's wrong with the music." So I put Spock's Bread V on and enjoy.

Another thing- I wish Neal didn't sing lead on so many Transatlantic songs.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 14:56

omphaloskepsis wrote:

I don't mind the Christian lyrics. I do mind that Neal's lyrics are cliché. I can tune out the lyrics if the music mesmerized me.

Another thing- I wish Neal didn't sing lead on so many Transatlantic songs.

This...^

I can't say I care much for his post Spocks' Beard music....and V is my go to for them.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: Lowend
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 15:28

dr wu23 wrote:

omphaloskepsis wrote:

I don't mind the Christian lyrics. I do mind that Neal's lyrics are cliché. I can tune out the lyrics if the music mesmerized me.

Another thing- I wish Neal didn't sing lead on so many Transatlantic songs.

This...^

I can't say I care much for his post Spocks' Beard music....and V is my go to for them.

V is one of my favorite releases too. I do like Spock's Beard with and without Neal. Just as I like Neal with or withpout Spock's Beard. Different perspectives on this are very interesting.I don't see the cliche you talk about and I don't feel the "what's wrong with the music". I do appreciate the feedback, though. If we all agreed on everything we'd have nothing to discuss. This is what makes music so interesting.

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Lost in trance of dances, as rhythm takes another turn

Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 11 2015 at 18:48

I just acquired a copy of Testimony Two and have found myself enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. I have no problem with him singing about his faith. I mean, if Steve Hillage can chant Om Nama Shivaya why can't Neal sing about finding Jesus? As a scholar in religions, I have developed a very open mind about such things. Many years ago I had a distinctly negative opinion on Christianity but that has mellowed over time. The difference for me is that I learned there is more to it than the hypocrisies I saw and still see among some of its adherents. Some, not all. In the case of Neal Morse, it is about the music more than anything else for me, and I have not tired of him yet despite the predictabilities and limitations many have mentioned. And it is good to hear someone truly inspired in a positive sense, which I believe him to be. I have grown tired of cynicism. As an artist, he writes about what is important to him and he is very clear about what that is. Nobody is making anyone listen to it if they don't want, and there are plenty of other options available.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"

Posted By: King Manuel
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 01:47

I am a non-believer and I enjoy NM, I don't get put off by the lyrics mainly because I am not a big "lyrics person" anyway. Even on a lot of my favourite albums that I have listen to for years I wouldn't be able to really tell you what the lyrics are about. For me its the music and the vocals are just like an instrument for me. So I have no problem with Mr Morse and his preaching's although they do not reflect my world view the least. Another Christian artist I enjoy a lot is Wovenhand. Just love the music and the way David Eugene Edwards sings.

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Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus

Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 15:37

I honestly believe Neal's conversion was the best thing that could have happened to him - spiritually and musically. Before that he wrote some nice stuff (see Spock's Beard V and Transatlantic Bridge Across Forever) but all his best work came after: Testimony, One, ? and Sola Scriptura are all among the finest albums ever recorded. And this is, in my opinion, in no small part because he had purpose. He had a destiny. Those records (whether you're a Christian or not) are inspired works.

Yes, I'm a huge fan. That in no way diminishes what he has accomplished.

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 17:24

I can understand why a Christian might find this stuff inspired but a non believer ? Why on earth would a non believer, such as myself, want to listen to someone waffling on about a belief system that he finds inherently naff ? Fantasy lyrics of a fictional kind, OK but this is not presented as fiction, it is presented as fact. Me I find old Yhwh to be an utterly unadmirable figure. Of course that doesn't stop the believers from thinking otherwise and I have no problem with that at all, not that they give a damn what I think and why should they ?

For mine, lyrics are an inherent part of the music and if I find the lyrics utterly disagreeable then nope, I don't want to listen. Otoh, while the only post saved Morse I have listened to is part of One, lyrics aside it didn't do much for me.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 17:39

^Completely agree. Clap

The Dark Elf wrote:

I don't believe in Neal Morse. He is a remnant of ancient tribal cult worship.

This.

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 12 2015 at 23:53

t d wombat wrote:

I can understand why a Christian might find this stuff inspired but a non believer ? Why on earth would a non believer, such as myself, want to listen to someone waffling on about a belief system that he finds inherently naff ? Fantasy lyrics of a fictional kind, OK but this is not presented as fiction, it is presented as fact. Me I find old Yhwh to be an utterly unadmirable figure. Of course that doesn't stop the believers from thinking otherwise and I have no problem with that at all, not that they give a damn what I think and why should they ?

For mine, lyrics are an inherent part of the music and if I find the lyrics utterly disagreeable then nope, I don't want to listen. Otoh, while the only post saved Morse I have listened to is part of One, lyrics aside it didn't do much for me.

As well as in God, I don't believe in Devil, so why should I like Iron Maiden's 666 the number of the beast?
And what about George Harrison's mantras?
Behind Morse's lyrics there are "feelings" in a general sense, and feelings are what the artists usually try to communicate with their arts.
There are feelings and messages also in instrumentals. Sometimes a track title is enough. It depends on how deep is the message. This is the main difference with pop and dance music.

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com

Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 00:08

Maiden's NotB is about a dream, not reality.

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--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.

Posted By: terryl
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 00:11

I am a non-believer in a Buddhist country, not an atheist nor a non-Christian. I like many of his stuff, with "?" being my desert island disc, but frankly the trinity of One, ? and Sola Scriptura is just excellent. Not because the main content is his Christian belief but rather that these are beautiful music, very memorable melodies, great complex instrumentation, brilliant and at times emotional vocals.

I don't care much about lyrics, except when they are exceptionally good or bad. In the case of these previously mentioned albums, they are very, very good. Did I find the lyrics especially in "?" and Sola Scriptura like reading a gripping book, with intriguing beginning, intense middle act, and satisfying resolution at the end. In the two Testimony albums, I remember some praisings, which I can live without, but still it is with very good music.

Unfortunately some of his more recent stuff has lost similar qualities that made "?", One, or Sola Scriptura worked very well.

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And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 04:13

octopus-4 wrote:

Why you should like Iron Maiden I cannot say but even an old atheist like me acknowledges that certain things are beyond our understanding. Big smile

I've not experienced a lot of Morse's work but reading through the lyrics of One makes me feel it is more proselytising than the simple airing of feelings. The prosecution calls its first witness

"Jesus came to lift us from the mud
God in dwelling in real flesh and blood
"Don't be angry; he just loves you so"
Let his spirit come and take control
It has begun....

Jesus understands
The heart of every man
He can feel your pain
Your suffering and shame
He has spanned the crest
Between the spirit and the flesh
He has raised the dead" Neal Morse

The prosecution rests.

Seriously though, as I said previously I simply don't understand how someone who does not believe this stuff would want to listen the above, I most certainly do not. That does not in any sense say that it is less than uplifting or relevant to a believer.
As for Harrison's mantras, to some extent I feel the same way about that. While its fair to say that some of that stuff is an aid to meditation parts of Harrison's output could also be considered evangelical. I've practiced meditation and most certainly find certain music conducive as an aid to relaxation. That, to me at least, is a whole world away from trying to convince others that their God (any God) is real in a physical sense.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 05:21

Lyrics "CAN BE" an important part of the whole thing, not always. Which importance can have "Toka Taye Tay Toka" or "Mitto mutto" sung by Jon Anderson? (Jon and Vangelis Private Collection and Olias of Sunhillow)

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 15:04

octopus-4 wrote:

Lyrics "CAN BE" an important part of the whole thing, not always. Which importance can have "Toka Taye Tay Toka" or "Mitto mutto" sung by Jon Anderson? (Jon and Vangelis Private Collection and Olias of Sunhillow)

Fair point. I'm one of those who likes a lot of Italian prog and I understand very little Italian so the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant, same goes for Gregorian chants as I know very little Latin. I'm not saying that any/all religious references are bad or more correctly not to my taste, only that in Morse's case it turned me off.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 16:17

Can we add all the other prog rock bands that have a religious theme in their lyrics.......Why is only one artist getting scrutinized?

Because he admitted to finding something that made him a better person and wants to sing about it? I don't see what is wrong with that.

Do we scrutinize the death/gothic/black metal bands for what they write about? I am 100% about music as an art form and anything goes..bring it on!!! But let's not just get on ONE artist for what inspires he/she to write about.

I feel that an artist will write lyrics because they have some genuine feeling about them and the subject matter....Regardles if it is Neal Morse, Jon A or Peter Gabriel. It's just lyrics to go along with the music...

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Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 17:16

I have no idea why it is/was only Neal Morse but my initial response was to the OP. That said I would maintain that certain topics would be for me a turnoff no matter the artist. Do you like to sing along to your favourites ? Despite the feelings of my neighbours cat I most certainly do. Last evening I was playing The Byrds' "Sweetheart of the Rodeo". One of my favourites largely due to Gram Parsons' influence but I'm never likely to sing or play along to "The Christian Life".

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 18:07

I don't mind Christian lyrics so much, despite being an agnostic with a serious dislike for religion, but it is entirely dependant on the writing style and delivery. Morse is a simplistic, crass writer that takes his beliefs and shoves it down the listeners throat without any sense of elequence or poetry at all, evoking all the worst kinds or cliches from christian music. Then there's his delivery, with his voice clearly mixed right to the very front leaving absolutely no doubt about what his singing and enhancing his "message". Then there's the fact that he's broken record, singing about the same damned subject on every bloody song for 15 prolific years. Then there's his music, which has zero identity of any kind. If it wasn't for the obvious absence of Dave Meros thundering bass tones, there'd be absolutley no way to tell his current music apart from his run in Spock's Beard (crappy lyrics aside). Or Transatlantic. Or Dream Theater in the instrumental sections. This might have been acceptable 15, 20 years ago when there were far fewer bands playing a modern take on Symphonic Prog and the musicians were all younger with more to say, but today these bands are ten a penny from the same group of people that have done it all before a dozen times over. Musically he has nothing left to say that we haven't all heard already multiple times.

It's not this is the only way to get his beliefs across in music either. Kerry Livegren wrote about Christianity a lot for Kansas and Proto-Kaw, and whilst the former doesnt interest me musically much, neither of them bother me in the slightest lyrically, even when I know it's religion they're singing about. The difference is talant (a subjective opinion, I know).

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: Wicket
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 18:20

To be fair, I ignore lyrics in songs, so I just thought Morse was singing about whales all the time in his solo stuff. (or polar bears or something, idk)

I have no problem about bands or artists singing about religious, cultural or political beliefs in the songs they write, that's fine. What turns me away is if they make their charged lyrics the MAIN FOCAL POINT of their songs. That's why I don't care much for punk.

Morse writes his solo albums with great attention to the little details, kinda of like classical symphonies, and although his lyrics are heavily religious, they're never the be all end all of the album. I've recently gotten back to listening to Sola Scriptura, mainly because of the many juicy instrumental sections in it (as well as Portnoy's drumming), not for Morse's lyrics at all.

That and I've always been a fan of Sonic The Hedgehog video games, and Morse's voice on the track "Momentum" is like the perfect accompaniment. Which is kind of weird.

Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 21:24

Personally i don't care if lyrics praise God, Satan or the Easter Bunny. If i like the music the lyrics are secondary. I like lots of Christian and Gospel, but i also like Satanic metal like Mayhem. I even like those cute Easter songs from my childhood. Good music is good music regardless of philosophical leanings. As for Mr Norse, he is hit and miss with me. He has some great music but his sheer output tends to repeat itself a lot whether it be in the Spock's Beard days, the solo stuff or with Transatlantic

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 21:55

Maybe that's why I like a lot of singer-songwriter stuff. I enjoy good lyrics. Adds a whole other dimension for me. Sleeper put it well I thought. For mine, it is not JUST Morse's lyrics that are a problem as I didn't really find his music terribly .... ahem .... inspiring. Well played yes but still and all just more of the same old same old I'm afraid. It was however lyrical content that was the basis of the OP.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: July 13 2015 at 22:24

miamiscot wrote:

I honestly believe Neal's conversion was the best thing that could have happened to him - spiritually and musically. Before that he wrote some nice stuff (see Spock's Beard V and Transatlantic Bridge Across Forever) but all his best work came after: Testimony, One, ? and Sola Scriptura are all among the finest albums ever recorded. And this is, in my opinion, in no small part because he had purpose. He had a destiny. Those records (whether you're a Christian or not) are inspired works.

Yes, I'm a huge fan. That in no way diminishes what he has accomplished.

I'm with this guy!

Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 06:20

Lowend wrote:

I like Neal Morse. I think he writes good music. I have noticed a few reviews which have been critical of his work due to his preaching. As an agnostic, you'd think that would bother me but it doesn't. I actually admire him for having the courage to put it out there even though I may not share his views. I don't think that should detract from his music. It's just his opinion. I can understand not liking his music but I can't understand not liking it because of the lyrics. My main focus in prog is the compostion and instrumentation. Let the dialog begin .......

Thank you for your frank and impartial view. I am a Christian and, yes, I like what Morse is producing. But, like you, I like it for more than the Christian message; I like it for the, as you say, "prog...composition and instrumentation." Regardless of philosophical or religious beliefs, I believe music 'speaks.' And, prog music has spoken to me for over 40 years now. I don't always pay attention to the lyrics. Who can when Jon Anderson's lyrics for old Yes songs make no common sense at all? Thank you, Lowend, for your frank, impartial view on Morse and his MUSIC! Regardless of the man and his beliefs, his MUSIC speaks...

Posted By: Rosscoe
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 06:53

Interesting discussion...

As a Christian I was keen to get hold of Snow (having read something of the story behind it), and I found it was not quite as similar as the story of jesus as some would seem to believe. I am yet to delve into his solo work but I intend to.

I think it makes sense for people to write songs about things that are important to them. That should make for better songs, if you have a message to communicate. That said, I enjoy opaque lyrics a lot - quite poetic, but it's not really clear what they're about at all.

I would have to say that I would struggle to listen to a whole album where the lyrics clearly and consistently displayed a worldview completely contrary to my own. I could still appreciate the music, but naturally the lyrics would affect my ability to enjoy it. So I understand people's views of Morse's music.

But don't forget, he made a clear decision to go away and write 'Christian music' so you kind of know what you are going to get. It's not like he's trying to disguise it.

I don't know where I stand on appraising Morse's work: I like Snow but I don't really like V much. I'm not even sure I like his voice much, but there's clearly some real talent there.

Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 07:29

If your faith is very important to you and at the core of who you are it takes an enormous effort to not preach, because you want to share your passion with others. Music is the perfect and obvious medium to do just that, so I don't hold that against him.

I'm not bothered by preachy lyrics. It takes a lot to turn me off with words. I tend to listen to the music first. Of course if Mr Morse was preaching hate, that would be a turn off!

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 10:12

Friday13th wrote:

Yes, I'm a huge fan. That in no way diminishes what he has accomplished.

I'm with this guy!

Agree with you! It seems his creativity took wing. I like Testimony more than his SB and Transatlantic works. Some of his other solo works sound less inspired but I still find something to enjoy like Lifeline and Testimony 2 (second disc).

As a christian I have no problems with his lyrics. Actually it's a plus for me. It's hard to find such good christian prog. I also enjoy any good music with positive message (or feel) but I wouldn't want to listen to something negative or satanic.

Musically I see Neal Morse as "the Mozart of prog". He's a master of musical hooks. This memorable melodies are really compelling to me. His composition can be simple or/and advanced. His discography is vast plus constant concerts ...

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 10:54

I can't support a guy who uses freedom of speech to attack other's people's beliefs.

The way he attacks Catholicism in Sola Scriptura, and hides the almost nazi antisemitism of Luther is shameful.

To be honest, I don't like Christian or Catholic or whatever rock, turns music that should be free into a jingle.

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Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:13

^ Neal doesn't do that. Every modern Catholic acknowledges the corruption of the church during Luther's time. My uncle is a monk and tells me how much many Catholic monks revere Luther. Indulgences, witholding communion for political reasons, all these things are universally condemned by all Christians. Luther was an anti-semite, but almost everyone was back then due to widespread ignorance. No one is covering up anything, Neal is just not bogging down a man's inspiring work for his failures.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:14

Can one of the Morse fans here recommend his best solo album...?

After Spock's Beard nothing I've heard by him has impressed me.

Oh...and did he leave Spock on his own...forced out...or was this about the Christian direction..?

btw...I'm listening to the Grand Experiment right now....

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:17

sleeper wrote:

I don't mind Christian lyrics so much, despite being an agnostic with a serious dislike for religion, but it is entirely dependant on the writing style and delivery. Morse is a simplistic, crass writer that takes his beliefs and shoves it down the listeners throat without any sense of elequence or poetry at all, evoking all the worst kinds or cliches from christian music. Then there's his delivery, with his voice clearly mixed right to the very front leaving absolutely no doubt about what his singing and enhancing his "message". Then there's the fact that he's broken record, singing about the same damned subject on every bloody song for 15 prolific years. Then there's his music, which has zero identity of any kind. If it wasn't for the obvious absence of Dave Meros thundering bass tones, there'd be absolutley no way to tell his current music apart from his run in Spock's Beard (crappy lyrics aside). Or Transatlantic. Or Dream Theater in the instrumental sections. This might have been acceptable 15, 20 years ago when there were far fewer bands playing a modern take on Symphonic Prog and the musicians were all younger with more to say, but today these bands are ten a penny from the same group of people that have done it all before a dozen times over. Musically he has nothing left to say that we haven't all heard already multiple times.

It's not this is the only way to get his beliefs across in music either. Kerry Livegren wrote about Christianity a lot for Kansas and Proto-Kaw, and whilst the former doesnt interest me musically much, neither of them bother me in the slightest lyrically, even when I know it's religion they're singing about. The difference is talant (a subjective opinion, I know).

Right on the money, Sleeper. Perhaps if Morse was a more talented lyricist, we might not be having this conversation. Lyrics are supposed to move people emotionally, not move people away from the music. Morse has this effect more than any other pro religious lyricist that I know of, and I've heard quite a few in my time.

Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:20

dr wu23 wrote:

Can one of the Morse fans here recommend his best solo album...?

After Spock's Beard nothing I've heard by him has impressed me.

He made more than 10 variations about the same concept, him, god and Mike Portnoy. All his albums talk about him or god and they make the marketing around those albums with the name of Mike Portnoy! Wink

If you have heard one album, you have heard it all! Sorry i had to let that one out! I still love the guy...

-------------
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 17:29

Friday13th wrote:

^ Neal doesn't do that. Every modern Catholic acknowledges the corruption of the church during Luther's time. My uncle is a monk and tells me how much many Catholic monks revere Luther. Indulgences, witholding communion for political reasons, all these things are universally condemned by all Christians. Luther was an anti-semite, but almost everyone was back then due to widespread ignorance. No one is covering up anything, Neal is just not bogging down a man's inspiring work for his failures.

O please man, I studied theology

Luther mutilated the Bible eliminating 7 books.

Nobody in the Church reveres Luther

Neal is defending a man who offered heaven to the princes if they killed the hungry peasents en extreme poverty while he attacks the Catholic Church to make propaganda for his beliefs.

Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants

Thus, anyone who is killed fighting on the side of the rulers may be a true martyr in the eyes of God,

...

These are strange times, when a prince can win heaven with bloodshed better than other men with prayer!

...

This is not a time to sleep. And there is no place for patience or mercy. This is the time of the sword, not the day of grace.

...

Furthermore, anyone who can be proved to be a seditious person is an outlaw before God and the emperor; and whoever is the first to put him to death does right and well.

...

Therefore, dear lords, here is a place where you can release, rescue, help. Have mercy on these poor people! Let whoever can stab, smite, slay. If you die in doing it, good for you! A more blessed death can never be yours, for you die while obeying the divine word and commandment in Romans 13 [:1, 2], and in loving service of your neighbor, who you are rescuing from the bonds of hell and of the devil.

Martin Luther 1525

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Peasants.html

Tell this stories to anybody who doesn't know history and theology, this is how he repaid the princes for financing the Reformation.

-------------

Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:03

I find it very odd that the man who accused Neal Morse of using his faith to bash other's beliefs is the only one actually doing so. What stories? What have I invented about anyone? I spoke only of personal experience. My uncle is a Catholic monk and he and some of his brothers revere Luther.

"Nobody in the church reveres Luther."

Look who's making sweeping absolutes. Ouch...there is an entire denomination called "Lutheran." I assume you are Catholic, but you must understand that all I'm saying is Neal's work was meant to be inclusive to all believers, something I doubt you do. I don't know how you could twist the message of Sola Scriptura into "hate all Catholics" or "Luther was the holiest, most non-racist man alive" or whatever strawman message when it is clearly just focusing on one commendable part of his life. It's about speaking out for what is right when no one else is. It doesn't matter if Martin Luther was wrong in other things.

Do you support monetary indulgences? Of course not, no Catholic does. Martin Luther was the driving force to ending them. That's just one. Do you always throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Anyways, for anyone asking for Neal Morse suggestions I would suggest Sola Scriptura as his best as it is the the most complex, heavy, and ambitious.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:27

Friday13th wrote:

"Nobody in the church reveres Luther."

He should be excommunicated or better move to the Lutherans.

I'm not using my religion for anything, I don't care which religion you are. Neither I'm mentioning any dogma, only say I don't like people who use their music as a vehicle to sell a religion or a political view.

If a Catholic did as Neal, would be saying exactly he same

Friday13th wrote:

Look who's making sweeping absolutes. Ouch...there is an entire denomination called "Lutheran." I assume you are Catholic, but you must understand that all I'm saying is Neal's work was meant to be inclusive to all believers, something I doubt you do.

I respect every religion, as a fact I'm marrying a Jew woman, I prayed in the Mosque of the Rock and the Synagogue of Jerusalem, but I ask the same respect for my beliefs

His work is not inclusive, he'a an anti-Catholic

Friday13th wrote:

I don't know how you could twist the message of Sola Scriptura into "hate all Catholics" or "Luther was the holiest, most non-racist man alive" or whatever strawman message when it is clearly just focusing on one commendable part of his life. It's about speaking out for what is right when no one else is. It doesn't matter if Martin Luther was also wrong in other things.

Well, in Sola Scriptura he calls the Roman Catholic Churchs the Whore, the Mother and the “Daughters of a Harlot”

If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive

Or when he criticizes our beliefs in the sains and in Mary

The pearl is trodden underfoot into the muck and mire
We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed
The woman's fed by ravens and her feet are in the fire
Cold and bare she's holding there 1260 day

That's sick hate and you know it....But this is worst

Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide

That's a PERSONAL ATTACK to the Church and this is wrong, no different than Jack Chick or any hate site like Jesus-is-savior.com.

Friday13th wrote:

Do you support indulgences? Of course not, no Catholic does. Martin Luther was the driving force to ending them. That's just one. Do you always throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Please, selling the heaven to the princes who kill peasants is worst than the indulgences, his anti-semitism is the worst in history.

And nobody supports the selling of indulgences, but that's not Mr Morse's point.

Friday13th wrote:

Anyways, for anyone asking for Neal Morse suggestions I would suggest Sola Scriptura as his best as it is the the most complex, heavy, and ambitious.

My opinion is to avoid him, his hate speech is terrible

-------------

Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:47

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=Friday13th]

Well, in Sola Scriptura he calls the Roman Catholic Churchs the Whore, the Mother and the “Daughters of a Harlot”

If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive

Or when he criticizes our beliefs in the sains and in Mary

That's sick hate and you know it....But this is worst

That's a PERSONAL ATTACK to the Church and this is wrong, if some Catholic musician said something similar, the attacks in the pages of Jack Chick and other hate sites, wouldn't stop.

I see where you're getting it now, but I never took the lyrics that way and I don't think that's how they were intended. I'm pretty sure Neal has mentioned it's not against true Catholicism as it is against those who use religion for greed and selfishness. Everyone agrees there, no? I hope I can clear it up with what I thought those lines meant.

1. Who is a whore? Someone who SELLS themselves. The album is about believing with conviction and standing up for what you think it right. In this case it was the corrupted leaders of the Catholic church, but aren't there members of every religion guilty of the same? After your first quote the next line is:

"Mercy, mercy, we're selling mercy"

So in context it's about the indulgences, NOT about the modern day Catholic church filled with genuine believers. How about the Protestant TV evangelist who's selling scams? He's the whore. The religious prostitutes.

2. The "woman" is the allegory of the church (bride of christ) and is saying "she's in bad shape due to corruption." That's it. No bashing of Mary or anything.

The rest are similar, but I think if you looked at it trying to find similarities between the faiths you'd see it's just against abuse of religion.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 18:53

Friday13th wrote:

"Mercy, mercy, we're selling mercy"

2. The "woman" is the allegory of the church (bride of christ) and is saying "she's in bad shape due to corruption." That's it. No bashing of Mary or anything.

The rest are similar, but I think if you looked at it trying to find similarities between the faiths you'd see it's just against abuse of religion.

1.- Please, you're an intelligent guy, you know that this is hate speech and it's intentional, you can try to cover him, but it's obvious

Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide

2.- The reference to the saints and the virgin is in the part of the Roman Gods

We'll take the Roman Gods except the names will all be changed

3.- He compares the Church with a prostitute.

If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive

I have never seen this insults in a Catholic musician album, Morse crossed the line.

4.- Not to the modern day Catholic Church?

Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide

That's a clear reference to the actual Church.

5.- The last paragraph is Neal Morse's personal opinion and attack to the whole Catholic Church, and that's insulting.

Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet

I don't respect him, much less would pay a dime to be insulted.

I received one of his albums as a gift, thanked the good intention but threw it to the trash, as I would thorow an album that insults Moslems or Jews.

-------------

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:04

For me one of the great unexplained issues of religion is this. How is it that so many people have a supposedly intimate connection with there God yet their experiences vary so enormously ? Personally it supports my contention that religion is all internal but that's just me.

This has expanded beyond the question of how do Morse's beliefs affect his music and into a general discussion of religion and beliefs. Is that kosher ?

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:06

and I was only angry at Morse that his album defeated the Miriodor album... Stern Smile

once again... you all need to learn to heed Mick the Sage's wisdom... Italian prog.. forget the lyrics man. Dig the music.. dig the voice.. forget the attempts to be intelletual with music. These are semi ediucated musicians.. not philosophers. 9 prog lyricists suck for every 1 instance that is interesting...

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:14

I studied theology too. Until I realized it was about religion. Silly me.

Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:23

t d wombat wrote:

For me one of the great unexplained issues of religion is this. How is it that so many people have a supposedly intimate connection with there God yet their experiences vary so enormously ? Personally it supports my contention that religion is all internal but that's just me.

I suspect that many people would argue it like this: "Only people of our particular faith who had intimate connections with God were really in communion with the Almighty. People of other faiths who had 'religious' experiences were just suffering from delusions."

This isn't a very strong argument, to be sure, but it at least makes some sort of sense, especially if one's own beliefs are very strong. I've even used that argument on myself a few times in the past, though I realize I shouldn't. Letting one's own convictions go unchallenged by dismissing all possible challengers offhand is an act of intellectual suicide.

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"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:27

Oh wow, Ivan's posts really put into perspective why Morse gets a lot of flak. Before this, I never paid much attention to the lyrics and anyway found SB/Morse boring for my taste so didn't bother. But what he quoted does not make for good reading and I am not a Christian, just born Hindu and not a particularly devout one to put it politely. This is where religion gets it wrong again and again and Morse is but one such evangelist. The passion/anxiety/call-it-what-you-will to reform the world seems to get into such an overdrive that making a mockery out of other religions (the enemy, as it were) becomes a necessity and one wonders what happened to the 'healing' aspect of religion. Well, not that communism is very different though, in spite of being so non-believing and all that, so blame it on the power of ideological dogma to fascinate people to irrational levels.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:37

micky wrote:

and I was only angry at Morse that his album defeated the Miriodor album... Stern Smile

Hey Mick, the lyrics of most Italian Prog bands are fantastic, ask Raff for Il Banchetto or

750.000 Anni Fa ... L'amore?, simply beautiful poetry.

The problem is that Sinfield never translated them (It's practically impossible to translate them without killing the beauty), he made terrible new lyrics

And of course Felona e Sorona is splendid in music and lyrics, Peter Hammill did a good job there with the translation.

IMO Italian lyrics are some of the most beautiful

PS: Say hi to Raff

Iván

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:41

^Geez, I got my bible out for nuthin'.

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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:43

will do my friend! Just interjected my trollishness digs nto the thread. Beautiful lyrics as I am beginning to learn. After all these years I'd finally getting off my ass and learning Italian LOL

Anyhow. Give 'em Hell Ivan. I'm with you 100% on this man. Just hit them with the blue font like you used to do me LOL

God those were the days.. blue font vs. red font.. we did have the most colorful quote pyramids didn't we haha

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 19:47

rogerthat wrote:

Oh wow, Ivan's posts really put into perspective why Morse gets a lot of flak. Before this, I never paid much attention to the lyrics and anyway found SB/Morse boring for my taste so didn't bother. But what he quoted does not make for good reading and I am not a Christian, just born Hindu and not a particularly devout one to put it politely. This is where religion gets it wrong again and again and Morse is but one such evangelist. The passion/anxiety/call-it-what-you-will to reform the world seems to get into such an overdrive that making a mockery out of other religions (the enemy, as it were) becomes a necessity and one wonders what happened to the 'healing' aspect of religion.

Of course, this happened 498 years ago and started a couple centuries before, time to heal.

While 5 Popes reunite with the Luteran leaders 50 times between 1965 and 2015 to heal the wounds, when the mutual excommunications are terminated and the Luteran with Catholics sign the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification,

Comes this guy and throws his hatred.

Morse is doing no good, he's trying to destroy this efforts of peace and a possible reunion of two Christian Churches.

thousands of Anglicans asked for an Ordinariate to return to the catholic Church, the Pope created one allowing married Anglican priests and bishops to maintain their positions. Because of this, hundreds of thousands have returned, including complete parishes.

Sectors of Lutherans asked their own ordinariate, but Pope Benedictus XVI refused because both churches were in dialogue, and as a sign of respect for the joint efforts.

But Morse doesn't like this, so he starts this hatred again.

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Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 20:26

Ah sod the lyrics .... go have a listen to Popol Vuh's sublime " Hosianna Mantra". Morse is not worthy to share the same thread. Smile

-------------
Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 20:34

Truth be told, I'm not convinced that Morse's lyrics convey any hatred against people. He's criticizing - very harshly, I'll grant - a religious tradition which he, in his own earnest convictions, considers false and pernicious.

Perhaps the Lutheran and Catholic Churches have reconciled to an extent. But doesn't Morse, as an individual, have a prerogative to hold to his own convictions about what's good for the Christian community, broadly speaking, and what isn't?

Now, I don't agree with his criticisms. I don't think they're fair. But I don't think they're hateful, either.

-------------
"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."

Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 21:14

I read the lyrics again. You have good points, Ivan. I guess that line "let the scriptures be our guide..." makes it pretty clear he's saying let's all follow sola scriptura, not keep modern Catholic traditions either, etc. I whole-heartedly agree that Christians should be united and not argue about little differences in beliefs.

The line "even though Peter was married, I can't" is clearly mocking the rules of priesthood. Even though I agree with the *non-confrontational* logic behind it, you're right. Some of it is pointed at the modern day Catholic Church in an unnecessary way. I still don't think the harshest stuff is the way you interpreted (the whore and those things have to do with the selling of religion), and I agree with Mr. Maestro in that I wouldn't go as far as it's "hate." A man like Neal thinks he has to let everyone know why he thinks something is false. Sound like other people you know? Tongue

I've been on Neal's forum and he has many theological debates and he says he just wants people to come to the truth and will have friendly discussions about things like this. Some I very much disagree with.

The music is excellent though. I really identified with the "little guy versus corrupt system" even if sadly it became about who's right and who's wrong.

Anyways, RPI is the way to go for sure! Although some people have to ruin it and learn Italian Wink

Kobaian it is! LOL

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 23:11

Friday13th wrote:

I read the lyrics again. You have good points, Ivan. I guess that line "let the scriptures be our guide..." makes it pretty clear he's saying let's all follow sola scriptura, not keep modern Catholic traditions either, etc. I whole-heartedly agree that Christians should be united and not argue about little differences in beliefs.

He has the right to believe in the 5 Solas, even though it's an invention of Luther like Sola Fides denied by James 2:

17 In the same way faith, if http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5257" rel="nofollow - good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

But he doesn´t have the right to insult Catholics.

Friday13th wrote:

The line "even though Peter was married, I can't" is clearly mocking the rules of priesthood. Even though I agree with the *non-confrontational* logic behind it, you're right. Some of it is pointed at the modern day Catholic Church in an unnecessary way. I still don't think the harshest stuff is the way you interpreted (the whore and those things have to do with the selling of religion), and I agree with Mr. Maestro in that I wouldn't go as far as it's "hate." A man like Neal thinks he has to let everyone know why he thinks something is false. Sound like other people you know? Tongue

How do you want a catholic to interpret Morse calling the Catholic Church a prostitute and calling our saints Roman Gods?

Please, it's obvious that the guy is a rabid anti-Catholic

Friday13th wrote:

I've been on Neal's forum and he has many theological debates and he says he just wants people to come to the truth and will have friendly discussions about things like this. Some I very much disagree with.

He wants the people to pay his career and sell us his beliefs, that's subliminal propaganda, and turns music into a jingle.

But what is worst, he's filling the mind of young kids with hatred when the Lutheran and catholic leaders are trying to reach an agreement...Do you know it would be easier for us to open a new Lutheran Ordinariate (Like the Anglican) and ordinate Lutheran married priests who want to pass to Catholic Church with their parishes.

But Benedictus showed respect, a respect that isn't share by this bigot

Friday13th wrote:

The music is excellent though. I really identified with the "little guy versus corrupt system" even if sadly it became about who's right and who's wrong.

Sorry, but for me, the lyrics and music go together.

The whole system was corrupt, when a guy protests for the indulgences but offers heaven to anybody who kills a hungry peasant, you know that the medicine was worst than the illness.

Friday13th wrote:

Anyways, RPI is the way to go for sure! Although some people have to ruin it and learn Italian Wink

Kobaian it is! LOL

We Spanish speakers understand a good 80% of Italian, but since I obtained the nationality (The only inheritance of my grandfather), been learning by myself

-------------

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 23:14

Mr. Maestro wrote:

Truth be told, I'm not convinced that Morse's lyrics convey any hatred against people. He's criticizing - very harshly, I'll grant - a religious tradition which he, in his own earnest convictions, considers false and pernicious.

Now, I don't agree with his criticisms. I don't think they're fair. But I don't think they're hateful, either.

But he doesn't have the right to insult

And calling the Church a prostitute is an insult full of hatred

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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 23:48

I couldn't care less which mythology is exactly used for the lyrics if the music is good to me.

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 17:26

In defense of Morse, I personally find it hard to accept how a born again Christian could ever accept that the RCC is the church of the Christ. How is it that a church that has been headed up by some of the vilest individuals imaginable and has allowed the rampant abuse of it's members claim to be guided by the son of God himself ? To that extent as a committed Christian I'm not at all surprised that Morse should criticise the RCC.

That does not, btw, suggest that the only religious organisation I'd consider to be somewhat dodgey is the RCC.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 18:10

t d wombat wrote:

In defense of Morse, I personally find it hard to accept how a born again Christian could ever accept that the RCC is the church of the Christ. How is it that a church that has been headed up by some of the vilest individuals imaginable and has allowed the rampant abuse of it's members claim to be guided by the son of God himself ? To that extent as a committed Christian I'm not at all surprised that Morse should criticise the RCC.

That does not, btw, suggest that the only religious organisation I'd consider to be somewhat dodgey is the RCC.

That's a difference between Catholics and self defined Christians

We respect other religions....You´ll never see a serious Catholic site insulting any belief

I couldn't expect more of fanatism

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Posted By: Flucktrot
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 18:20

Wow...I suppose I won't be seeing everyone on this thread at Morsefest in September then!

Seriously though, I love Neal's music and I respect the man. I've read his autobiography, and the man truly believes that he has been blessed with miracles from God (i.e., his daughter surviving a heart condition that many physicians thought she would not survive). Who am I to take away someone else's guiding light? I don't believe in Neal's exact positions, but as one who does psychological research for a career, it's clear from research that being religiously observant is linked to many desirable outcomes, such as higher life satisfaction, lower stress, and even increased longevity.

Just like you can't judge a pastor only on his Sunday sermon, don't just judge Neal from the lyrics in his music. By all accounts that I've seen, he is a caring, family man who is genuinely interested in spiritual exploration with others (and not, as has been accused here, hateful and trying to cram his beliefs down others' throats).

The fact is that becoming religiously observant has made transformed Neal from a somewhat selfish and substance abusive person to something better (whether that's actually God or a giant placebo, I don't know), but the effect is there, and to call him hateful is just not accurate.

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Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 18:23

^Just put this straight, Morse would bore me if he sang about sex.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 18:26

Flucktrot wrote:

Wow...I suppose I won't be seeing everyone on this thread at Morsefest in September then!

Insulting other religions is not hate?

Calling the church of 1,300 million persona a whore is a great offence

The problem is not his religion, he may believe in anything he wants, the problem is the way he offends other beliefs

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Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 18:59

dr wu23 wrote:

Can one of the Morse fans here recommend his best solo album...?

After Spock's Beard nothing I've heard by him has impressed me.

Oh...and did he leave Spock on his own...forced out...or was this about the Christian direction..?

btw...I'm listening to the Grand Experiment right now....

My Top 5 are:

1) Question Mark

2) Testimony

3) Sola Scriptura

4) One

5) Testimony 2

Lifeline, Momentum and The Grand Experiment are really good records but not on the same level as those listed above.

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 19:09

SteveG wrote:

^Just put this straight, Morse would bore me if he sang about sex.

hahhaha

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 19:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

That's a difference between Catholics and self defined Christians

We respect other religions.

I couldn't expect more of fanatism

Maybe you and the church now do but its been a long time coming. That said I fully agree that the likes of Morse show all the signs of fanaticism.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Flucktrot
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 19:34

Giving a critique of any entity is not hate, just like me criticizing GW Bush or Obama policy does not make me an anarchist.

The Catholic church has historically been linked to both wonderful and terrible things. Pointing out some of the negative stuff is not hate. Sola Scriptura is recognizing Luther for having the courage to point out some of the bad stuff, risking his well being and possibly his life in doing so.

By your logic, instead of praising the whisteblowers who brought out the Enron scandal to the public, we should be angry at them for being haters.

We don't think Roger Waters is a Nazi, even though at the time of writing the Wall, he generally believed the stadium rock show to be the same as a fascist rally (although I do have to agree with others posting here that Morse is not in the same galaxy as someone like Waters as a lyricist).

Just my two cents...

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Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 20:21

Flucktrot wrote:

Giving a critique of any entity is not hate, just like me criticizing GW Bush or Obama policy does not make me an anarchist.

By your logic, instead of praising the whisteblowers who brought out the Enron scandal to the public, we should be angry at them for being haters.

Just my two cents...

Roger Waters never praised nazism neither attackd other races

Morse is not criticizing he is INSULTING, calling a church a prostitute is not a criticism, is an insult.

Calling our saints Roman Gods is not a criticism, it's an insult.....

This

Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet

Is an insult

If he pointed the Inquisition (Also mentioning Lutheran Inquisition that killed more people in 7 weeks in the Sack of Rome than the Catholic Inquisition in 5 centuries), I would agree it's an honest criticism.

But he insults Catholics and hides what Luther did.

That's HATE

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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 22:17

I don't understand why people are trying to defend Morse, from what I'm reading he's blatantly insulting other people's beliefs which is wrong.

One more thing to add to the conversation. Why do so many people hate on the band Creed, when yes, the band members are Christian; however, their lyrics are completely up for interpretation. Morse on the other hand, has blatant Christian lyrics.

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 22:40

Ivan,

Surely Morse in using the description of the church as a whore is referring to the sale of indulgences, the church effectively selling itself. Given that he's referring to the age of Luther then it is a pretty valid claim. Harsh yes, but nonetheless valid.

Again, at the time of Luther there were numerous Christian saints who had been lifted hollus bollus from Roman (and other) culture(s). It may not be pleasant but Morse is stating the case and the case is valid.

Now while the Sack of Rome in 1527 was a pretty horrendous act there is not a lot of evidence to support a case that it was Luther's idea, indeed he seems to have had little if anything to do with it. Yes there were Protestants in Charles' army but there were also a goodly number of Catholics. I am not completely up on the subject but from what I do know this is more to do with sundry political machinations than anything else. Probably best to keep away from bloodletting. Otherwise someone might slip in mention of the Crusades and/or the Conquista.

Anywho ... we should have stuck to the obvious. Morse's music is uninteresting and his lyrics are trite. Godbothering or no godbothering.

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 15 2015 at 23:36

t d wombat wrote:

Ivan,

Surely Morse in using the description of the church as a whore is referring to the sale of indulgences, the church effectively selling itself. Given that he's referring to the age of Luther then it is a pretty valid claim. Harsh yes, but nonetheless valid.

Please, you know this is not true

This is the complete paragraph

Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide

Please this an actual reference, the last sentence makes it clear, if you read what he says, it0s bevident "Like Martin Luther did 500 years ago, must be done by us today

He talks about our rituals, our faith, our beliefs and calls our church a harlot that must be abandoned today as Luther did centuries ago

Don't try to defend him with false arguments...He is a fanatic who hates Catholicism.

t d wombat wrote:

Again, at the time of Luther there were numerous Christian saints who had been lifted hollus bollus from Roman (and other) culture(s). It may not be pleasant but Morse is stating the case and the case is valid.

For God's sake, he's talking about ALL OUR SAINTS, he's insulting our Church...Are you blind?

There are no saints from other cultures, that's an invention, mwhen you want on another thread I give you the evidence.

t d wombat wrote:

Now while the Sack of Rome in 1527 was a pretty horrendous act there is not a lot of evidence to support a case that it was Luther's idea, indeed he seems to have had little if anything to do with it. Yes there were Protestants in Charles' army but there were also a goodly number of Catholics. I am not completely up on the subject but from what I do know this is more to do with sundry political machinations than anything else.

I'm well informed

"Christ reigns in such a way that the Emperor who persecutes Luther for the Pope is forced to destroy the Pope for Luther"

Martin Luther (LW 49:169).

---------------------------------------------

The soldiers chanted: "Long live Luther pontifex". In derision, Luther's name was carved into the fresco "La Disputa Santissimo Sacramento" (The Disputation over the Most Holy Sacrament)

http://www.guardiasvizzera.va/content/guardiasvizzera/en/storia/1527-sacco-di-roma.html

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Luckily Peruvian University system also allowed me to study a lot of history parallel to my career

t d wombat wrote:

Probably best to keep away from bloodletting. Otherwise someone might slip in mention of the Crusades and/or the Conquista.

Are you threatening?

Don't worry I know history and as Peruvian very well informed about Spanish Conquista and the role of the Church trying to stop the Spanish conquerors, but i'm not here to talk about history, I'm here to talk about a guy using music to insult our most holy beliefs, and gaining money wioth that.

But if somebody wants to talk about history, I can also play the game in another thread.

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Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 01:51

Morse's solo work is hackish tripe. The cookie-cutter evangelical lyrics and themes are annoying enough... if you're going to be an offensive and/or windbaggish dick at least do it with a wink and a nudge and more than a bit of creativity, as most "satanic" metal bands do. But even worse is the music... I am a huge SB fan (V is an immortal album) but it's clear that religious zeal has smothered in Neal's brain whatever spark of musical inspiration used to drive him pre-conversion.

Posted By: Copac
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 05:32

I think Neal's idea with the Sola Scriptura album is to encourage christians (of any belief!) to be vigilant and think for themselves and self-reflect on your own belief system. Don't take any statements by some high-placed individual (pastors, bishops, ministers, elders, priests, your parents, whatever) for granted. But measure anything to the bible. (Examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good and abstain from every form of evil.)

Don't forget Luther was a Catholic himself. Better yet, in Luther's time, there was only one church, the Catholic Church. So every christian back then, was automatically a Catholic. Eventually every christian on earth has its roots in the Catholic Church. So any criticism from Luther was not pointed towards the Catholic Church per se, but to this church, that just happened to be the Catholic Church, because that's the only one there was.

Neal Morse took the example of one tiny seemingly insignificant man who stood up against the big institution and made a change.

He encourages us to do the same now. Not just to the Catholic Church of course, because unlike then, there are so many different churches now, but reflect on your own christian institution and make a change if it doesn't hold up to the teachings of the Bible.

Neal chose Luther for this, because his story is the most well-known and made the biggest impact on christian history.

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 05:57

Just for completeness, the Catholic Church was not the only one. Hortodox Christians were and are still present in Eastern Europe from Greece to Russia

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com

Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 06:19

the chisma took place for a reason.....

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Posted By: Flucktrot
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:00

I guess I just don't understand the consistent rips against Neal...I get the point, but what I don't get is the need to keep going on about how much his lyrics offend or aggravate.

If you don't like it, don't listen to it.

The same applies for other debates. I personally think the death growls on Opeth's stuff sounds like crap. I can't stand them, actually. Instead of trying to convince others how bad it is, I just don't listen to Opeth much. IT's a dealbreaker for me, but I can still respect why people like it, and it's still prog, so I want to see the band keep doing well.

Team Morse, all the way!

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Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:19

I must say I am a shocked by some of the lyrics that Iván quoted from Neal Morse.

I'm a protestant pastor and I admire Luther for taking people back to studying the Bible themselves.

But I can't get behind any anti-catholic and anti-jewish propaganda, even when put in its proper time.

And I realize now that I do have a problem with some of Neal Morse's lyrics.

I wish that the ecumenical path would be taken more often.

In my (small) city, as the pastor of the protestant church, I'm head of the city council of churches.

That council includes the Roman-Catholic church, the protestant church, the Roman-Catholic ecumenical Focolare movement and an evangelical congregation.

Together we come in each others' church services, we do diaconal projects together, we respect each other in each other's traditions.

And we learn from each other.

But it's the road less travelled...

Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 10:15

Flucktrot wrote:

I guess I just don't understand the consistent rips against Neal...I get the point, but what I don't get is the need to keep going on about how much his lyrics offend or aggravate.

If you don't like it, don't listen to it.

Team Morse, all the way!

Opeth's death growls aren't offending anyone. Granted, I'm not Christian so I'm not offended per se, but I wouldn't want to be insulted for my religion, so I don't want others to be insulted for their beliefs. If Morse wasn't insulting Catholics in his lyrics, opinions would probably be confined to 'I don't like his lyrics' or 'I don't like his music' which in my case would be both. Maybe some don't see it as blatant attacks on another belief system, but it's clear that some do including me.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 11:50

Because he's a public person, using his fame and music to offend others, if he insults, he must be man enough to accept criticism

Flucktrot wrote:

If you don't like it, don't listen to it.

That's not the point, he's using his fame to insult others in a way no public figure does and that's wrong, he feels free to insult, we are free to say he's a bigot.

Flucktrot wrote:

The same applies for other debates. I personally think the death growls on Opeth's stuff sounds like crap. I can't stand them, actually. Instead of trying to convince others how bad it is, I just don't listen to Opeth much. IT's a dealbreaker for me, but I can still respect why people like it, and it's still prog, so I want to see the band keep doing well.

I hate Opeth growls, but they can sing as they want because they don't use those growls to offend anyone....The worst thing I can say (and said it in a review) is how much I don't like the growls, how great Akkerfeldt voice sounds when singing normally and how much this sounds affect my positive opinion of their music....But on a personal level, I have nothing to say about them, except how much I respect the members of this bands as musicians

Flucktrot wrote:

Team Morse, all the way!

This thread has made stronger my respect for people like Moogtron II, a real Protestant pastor who praises what he believes, but criticizes how a Protestant insults the Catholics.

But you are supporting bigotry.

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 12:11

Moogtron III wrote:

I must say I am a shocked by some of the lyrics that Iván quoted from Neal Morse.

I'm a protestant pastor and I admire Luther for taking people back to studying the Bible themselves.

But I can't get behind any anti-catholic and anti-jewish propaganda, even when put in its proper time.

And I realize now that I do have a problem with some of Neal Morse's lyrics.

I wish that the ecumenical path would be taken more often.

In my (small) city, as the pastor of the protestant church, I'm head of the city council of churches.

That council includes the Roman-Catholic church, the protestant church, the Roman-Catholic ecumenical Focolare movement and an evangelical congregation.

Together we come in each others' church services, we do diaconal projects together, we respect each other in each other's traditions.

And we learn from each other.

But it's the road less travelled...

Thanks God for communities as your's

As a historical fact, Angelo Roacalli (Later John XXIII), was consecrated Archbishop in Mesembria Bulgaria predominantly Orthodox and anti-Roman Catholic.

Because of he great number of Orthodoxs, the priests weren't able to give the last ritual to dying people, so Roncalli went to the Orthodox houses and gave the Extreme Unction following the Orthodox Rituals and never tried to convert anybody when giving this rite.

This caused a negative reaction in Catholic sectors who believed he was abandoning his people and the Vatican sent a visitor to verify if there were enough conversions and if not, he would be removed...The day the visitor Cardinal reached, thousands of Orthodox persons and even the bishop, were at the door of the Catholic Church shouting we're all Catholics .

That's the same thing you are doing in your community shouting we're all Christians and speaks well about you.

Thanks

Iván

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 13:16

pffff..'

thank God for Ivan.. keeping forums from getting boring for 11 years and counting... Heart

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 13:27

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Moogtron III wrote:

I must say I am a shocked by some of the lyrics that Iván quoted from Neal Morse.

I'm a protestant pastor and I admire Luther for taking people back to studying the Bible themselves.

But I can't get behind any anti-catholic and anti-jewish propaganda, even when put in its proper time.

And I realize now that I do have a problem with some of Neal Morse's lyrics.

I wish that the ecumenical path would be taken more often.

In my (small) city, as the pastor of the protestant church, I'm head of the city council of churches.

That council includes the Roman-Catholic church, the protestant church, the Roman-Catholic ecumenical Focolare movement and an evangelical congregation.

Together we come in each others' church services, we do diaconal projects together, we respect each other in each other's traditions.

And we learn from each other.

But it's the road less travelled...

Thanks God for communities as your's

That's the same thing you are doing in your community shouting we're all Christians and speaks well about you.

Thanks

Iván

You're most welcome, Iván, and many thanks in return!

I absolutely love the story you told, and Angelo Roncalli / pope John XXIII was a very inspirational person.

Like the new pope, a blessing to the world church.

He's highly praised in my (protestant) circles.

Thanks for pointing out some of Neal Morse's lyrics, even though I'm heavuily disappointed with the content.

Didn't expect this kind of lyrics.

Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 13:28

micky wrote:

pffff..'

thank God for Ivan.. keeping forums from getting boring for 11 years and counting... Heart

Glad he's back, for sure Heart

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 13:32

Yes he is.. perhaps he missed his protigee and perpetual pain the ass, the symphonic prodigal son who returned after spening years wandering the wasteland of the internet like Cain from Kung Fu.

Let's hope he starts going into something we disagree with (shouldn't be hard haha) watch the fireworks begin. Neal Morse is a sh*tstain. Let's get something fun. Come on Ivan. For old times sake. The thread will be an explosion of blue and red font. Good times!

Hey... someone suggest Jon Lord for Symphonic LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 13:52

micky wrote:

Yes he is.. perhaps he missed his protigee and perpetual pain the ass, the symphonic prodigal son who returned after spening years wandering the wasteland of the internet like Cain from Kung Fu.

Let's hope he starts going into something we disagree with (shouldn't be hard haha) watch the fireworks begin. Neal Morse is a sh*tstain. Let's get something fun. Come on Ivan. For old times sake. The thread will be an explosion of blue and red font. Good times!

Hey... someone suggest Jon Lord for Symphonic LOL

Don't worry my young grasshopper or Padawan if you like more this sci fi.

We will disagree, I'm 100% sure, I'm getting too old and hope wiser for blue fonts about musical opinions.

But bigotry, racism or fanaticism, that's another issue

Iván

PS Thanks Moogtron

PPS: Mick, we never kept distance, remember we used to talk in Raff's Facebook account

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 14:04

of course I do... Heart

couldn't agree with you more on the B,R,&F card. I was a hellion on that when younger..iI remember having footballs thrown at me when I tried to lecture people on the flight of the Chinese dissidents in college in the 80's... f**king frat boys.....but it is something I have always felt very strongly about.. and far from the bullsh*t notion that one become more conservative as they grow older...in fact have gotten more passionate and strident about it as I've gotten older.

If Morse had NOT pulled the religion card.. we just would have ignored him as we do all the number of bands and artist we think suck or whose music simply don't connect. However .. he was out of bounds and deserves all the grief he gets for it. Not only the people here.. but musicians then.. should heed the wise Mick. Leave the lyrics to pop singers.. you are a prog artist.. just play the music man. Leave the pseudo intellectual bullsh*t to the true owners of it.. the academics.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 14:55

Hey, one of the reasons I like prog is the pseudo intellectual bullsh*t lyrics (paging Neil Peart...). The key ingredient is "intellectual" though, there at least has to be some pretense at independent thought put into them... but what Neal Morse emits is just stale evangelical copypasta.

Posted By: Flucktrot
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 16:21

Sooo...I'm supporting bigotry...like the confederate flag is supporting slavery? Or is some other analogy better?

Quick poll: Which is more offensive...me blasting Sola Scriptura from my car or the guy next to me with the confederate flag flying on his truck antenna?

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Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 16:30

Flucktrot wrote:

Sooo...I'm supporting bigotry...like the confederate flag is supporting slavery? Or is some other analogy better?

Theanalogy is wrong, we're talking about religion

Flucktrot wrote:

Quick poll: Which is more offensive...me blasting Sola Scriptura from my car or the guy next to me with the confederate flag flying on his truck antenna?

This is a reductio ad absurdum

You are not guilty for what Morse did.

If you ask me about Morse, I don't know who is worst, but I tend to say that an intelligent, cult man as Morse is worst than an ignorant redneck.

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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 16:37

SteveG wrote:

I studied theology too. Until I realized it was about religion. Silly me.

Regarding religion in general I'll quote one of my favorite weird authors RAWilson:

"If you think you know what's going on, then you are probably full of sh*t."

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 17:20

Back to the basic thread of the post - I loved the SB stuff and it resurrected (excuse the pun) my love of prog rock after the dark days of the 90's here in the UK. Listening to the intro to 'Day for Night' as I bounded up the stairs at Nottingham Rock City to see them support Dream Theater was one of my great experiences at the time. I loved 'V' but I thought 'Snow' was an absolute conceptual masterpiece and I was very sad (even annoyed) that Neal left the band before its brilliance could be shared on a live basis. I remember actually getting a touch sharp when Neal started to record new prog rock which I felt was only a little different to the stuff he did with SB, but with a more obvious Christian lyric base. Wasn't the story of 'Snow' suitably clear a reference to the rediscovery of faith without being so obvious lyric-wise to his solo work. However, I gave him a second chance and gradually warmed to his more overtly Christian releases - not least because I have a sufficient spiritual edge to understand and enjoy the content, whilst loving the epic symphonic prog music even more. Does it get cheesy? Yes - no more so than when he ran round the audience at London's High Voltage festival a few years ago in true evangelical mode. I'm still a huge fan of his Transatlantic work - even if, like an author, a good editor would get rid of the tendency to ramble a touch.

I think there can be room for Christian sensibilities in prog rock which can still appeal to a wider audience. Dave Bainbridge's Iona, here in the UK, have been treading this fine line remarkably well for decades, and I think Neal can do the same.

However, despite the good and even great albums since Spock's Beard - I'd love to tell Neal personally that his most uplifting piece of work was the various incarnations of 'Wind At My Back' (from 'Snow') - which said it all! Sometimes, Neal, less can be more.....a whisper can convey more than a sermon.

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“Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”

Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 18:51

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

snip snip

Are you threatening?

But if somebody wants to talk about history, I can also play the game in another thread.

Chill brother, chill.

I don't doubt that Christians of Morse's leaning hate the Catholic church. These idiots seem to hate more than they love. Now please, I beg of you, do not make me go and read every Morse lyric. That would be inhuman. Smile

Look, I think you have made some valid points , my comment was meant to refer to the necessary cleaning up of the Catholic church at the time of the reformation. I seem to have painted myself into a corner where I am seen as a Morse defender when everything he stands for regarding religion I find utterly abhorrent.

Was he talking about all your saints ? If so then yes, he is wrong but I took it to be a reference to the undeniable fact that the Catholic church and indeed the Judao Christian Islamic religions in toto have purloined an awful lot from older traditions and that includes the rebranding of certain figures as Christian saints. Again it would appear that Morse is more concerned with his loathing of the church than anything else but there is some truth in what he says.

Regarding the Sack, that quote was made after the event and while yes Luther and his followers may well have applauded, the sack was not at his behest. It remains a valid point that a large part of Charles' army was Catholic and that the Sack was not a specifically anti Catholic event. I do not defend Luther for his other failings, I merely say that you cannot lay the Sack of Rome at his feet.

Threatening ? No way man. Threatening anyone, other than with more gasbagging on my part, is not my way. I did remark quite early on in this very thread that perhaps it was more suited for an Off Topic forum but as everyone else simply carried on then so did I. As for a history lesson then hell yeah, I'd be more than happy to take that elsewhere. Your knowledge of theology may well outstrip mine but I was raised a Christian in a devout Christian home, educated in a Christian (albet Anglican not Catholic) school and was half expected to enter the Priesthood. Thankfully I realised the whole thing was/is a complete load of tosh and while I care not if others wish to worship their so called Gods I remain quite content with my agnosticism bordering on atheism. (As I cannot disprove God's existence I cannot say with 100% certainty that God does not exist so even though I don't believe he does.)

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Andrew B

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” ― Julius Henry Marx

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 16 2015 at 20:04

t d wombat wrote:

Chill brother, chill.

I don't doubt that Christians of Morse's leaning hate the Catholic church. These idiots seem to hate more than they love. Now please, I beg of you, do not make me go and read every Morse lyric. That would be inhuman. Smile

Cleaning my friend?

Yes, we had Crusades had the participation of the Catholic Church, we admit it, the Pope has asked pardon for that

But the truth is that the Church was only a pawn in the hands of the kings and emperors who wantedhe control of the territories surrounding Holy Land

But cleaning?

The Inquisition was Catholic and killed 1, 500 persons in 5 centuries...true, but the control was in hands of the Spanish Kingdom, the evidence it that it was established in Spain by established in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile.

While the Spanish empire wanted to send the native from the colonies to the Inquisition, the Pope banned it and said that they should never be subject of the Inquisition for their beliefs or anything...Another prove that the Pope was a pawn of the Kings

But nobody talks about the Protestant Inquisition for example

- Queen Elizabeth I killed 800 Catholics every year during her 45 years of Kingdom she alone killed in 45 year, twentyu something more persons than the catholic Inquisition

- Luther personally incited the massacre of more than 150,000 peasants when he supported the princes...The Lutheran Inquisition burned 100,000 witches in 16 years

- Zwingli placed Anabaptists in sacks and threw them to the rivers, when this wasn't enough, he filled boats with more Anabaptists and sank them, the 1530 Zurich decree ordered the death of every Anabaptist

- In Presbyterian Scotland, John Knox ordered the death of 1,000 women in a period of 6 years

- Everybody moans for Galileo who died of natural causes at an advanced age (Again the Pope exonerated him and asked Pardon), but nobody speaks of John Servet (Discovered the minor circulation), who was burned by orders of Calvine

You talk about indulgences, but the prosperity theology (Evangelical) TODAY, takes millions from the poorest people and the members of their churches pay tithe TODAY.

And I could continue....So what cleaning do we talk about

t d wombat wrote:

Was he talking about all your saints ? If so then yes, he is wrong but I took it to be a reference to the undeniable fact that the Catholic church and indeed the Judao Christian Islamic religions in toto have purloined an awful lot from older traditions and that includes the rebranding of certain figures as Christian saints. Again it would appear that Morse is more concerned with his loathing of the church than anything else but there is some truth in what he says.

What truth, please tell us names of saints

t d wombat wrote:

Regarding the Sack, that quote was made after the event and while yes Luther and his followers may well have applauded, the sack was not at his behest. It remains a valid point that a large part of Charles' army was Catholic and that the Sack was not a specifically anti Catholic event. I do not defend Luther for his other failings, I merely say that you cannot lay the Sack of Rome at his feet.

That's an evidence again that religious leaders are pawns of the kings and emperors.

And yes, it was an anti-Catholic event, fully supported by Luther

t d wombat wrote:

Threatening ? No way man. Threatening anyone, other than with more gasbagging on my part, is not my way. I did remark quite early on in this very thread that perhaps it was more suited for an Off Topic forum but as everyone else simply carried on then so did I. As for a history lesson then hell yeah, I'd be more than happy to take that elsewhere. Your knowledge of theology may well outstrip mine but I was raised a Christian in a devout Christian home, educated in a Christian (albet Anglican not Catholic) school and was half expected to enter the Priesthood. Thankfully I realised the whole thing was/is a complete load of tosh and while I care not if others wish to worship their so called Gods I remain quite content with my agnosticism bordering on atheism. (As I cannot disprove God's existence I cannot say with 100% certainty that God does not exist so even though I don't believe he does.)

Please, you know this is a threat

t d wombat wrote:
Probably best to keep away from bloodletting. Otherwise someone might slip in mention of the Crusades and/or the Conquista.

Shut up or "somebody" "MAY" talk about Crusades and Conquista.

Don't tell me it's not, because that would be insulting my intelligence.

For an agnostic you defend Luther with passion

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