Serialism in rock?
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Topic: Serialism in rock?
Posted By: WeepingElf
Subject: Serialism in rock?
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 13:58
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As ought to be well known, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialism" rel="nofollow - serialism has been the dominant paradigm in academic avant-garde music for much of the 20th century. However, I am not aware of any example in rock that uses such techniques. Is there really no such thing as serialism in any branch of rock music, or do you know any? (Not that I am much into serialism myself. IMHO, the whole serialist business was a dead end, and resulted in mostly ugly and unintelligible music.) ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Replies:
Posted By: Gully Foyle
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:13
| will be watching this thread, i enjoy some of the avant garde classical stuff based on it... |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:25
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Best I know of is Sonic Youth, in their album of covers of avant garde orchestra pieces SYR4, doing versions of two of John Cage's Number Pieces: one version of Four and two takes on Six. How rock they turned out is debatable, but they are wonderful takes on the pieces. -------------  
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:27
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And perhaps Terry Reilly, who made the sixties album A Rainbow In Curved Air. I can't think of anyone else offhand. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: ProgBob
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 17:27
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I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: progrockdeepcuts
Date Posted: September 18 2015 at 19:13
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Ut Gret's "Zodiac" is based in serialism, but not entirely. ------------- Listen to older shows here: mixcloud.com/progrockdeepcuts/ |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 10:01
Yes. Riley is a minimalist, not a serialist. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
ProgBob wrote:Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:19
I am a Minirialist |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:29
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Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 13:43
You are right. He started as a serialist, but abandoned it in favour of minimalism. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 20 2015 at 15:14
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Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 11:16
^Agree. But I have heard many atonal singers in my day.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 11:39
Yes, Tim Hodgkinson in particular was really into serialism, I think a number of his compositions incorporated it, but in general I too am hard pressed to think of prog rock compositions that are explicitly composed using the twelve-tone technique. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 13:09
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 14:51
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I'm not sure I'd be able to recognise 12-tone serialism with a rock beat if it bit me on the arse. For example Henry Cow's Ruins is apparently based upon the Fibonacci series but you'd be hard pressed to figure that out just by listening to it. Similarly I'm not sure I would recognise atonality if it's done well as it just means it lacks a tonal centre. ------------- What? |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: September 21 2015 at 15:11
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Me too. The important is to hear music that I like. BTW. The second atonal quartet (first of the genre) by Arnold Schoenberg is easier to listen to than his first, long and very complex tonal quartet.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 22 2015 at 08:46
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Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: September 22 2015 at 09:09
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This depends on how strict your definition of serialism is... Blotted Science works on stuff related to 12-tone serialism and whatnot- as do a number of weird complex metal bands. Sculptured's embodiment features a form of this writing technique. In my opinion, you almost have to be able to repeat notes or sections while moving through serialism or it is difficult to make good melodies. I still love a good melody that is able to include all 11 notes... ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 22 2015 at 09:44
It's easier to find serial killer in rock than serialism. 
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: progrockdeepcuts
Date Posted: September 22 2015 at 10:04
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I believe Larks Tongues part 2 is actually atonal, at least in part. It's certainly chromatic. ------------- Listen to older shows here: mixcloud.com/progrockdeepcuts/ |
Posted By: Froth
Date Posted: September 22 2015 at 11:43
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There are lots of rock pieces without a tonal centre but the only piece I know that uses the 12-tone method is Erk Gah by Henry Cow. I suppose a method in which all melodies are derived from a single sequence of all 12 notes and thus strictly notated, doesn't lend itself naturally to rock, even progressive rock. I think U-totem may have used some 12-tone techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0zpwbtlWoE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0zpwbtlWoE
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Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: September 27 2015 at 00:13
Oh gosh whenever I see or hear the word "serialism" my mind (and ears) recollects the music of Arnold Shoenberg, Anton Webern, and Alban Berg when I was studying music theory & composition at school. The only album I can think of at the moment is Captain Beefhearts & His Magic Band's "Trout Mask Replica" (1969). I know "12-tone" was used especially by Jazz artists like Bill Evans, and Miles Davis- You might also want to check out Frank Zappa -   ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 27 2015 at 18:34
| I don't see the big deal. As Dean was saying, I don't think I could tell if someone was using that 12 tone method. Lots of Avant Rock is atonal. Any time you use a symmetrical scale (e.g. whole/half diminished, 9 note augmented), you either don't have a root note or you have lots and lots of root notes to a point where it doesn't really matter anymore what you call a root note. Twelve tones are of course all the notes available and what is referred to as the chromatic scale, and just another very extreme version of a symmetrical scale, so I'm really not sure I would be able to tell the difference between some using the 12 tone method versus any other application of the chromatic scale. Someone should do some fact checking because I thought it was just a myth that the 12 tone method required all the notes be played before repeating, but I've been wrong before. |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: September 27 2015 at 19:38
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I know some people that hate this guy. But heck yea Ron. There are 12 tone sections in this and such. Here he explains how he uses his system and how it's not like the stuff Schoenenburg(spelling bad) uses. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 27 2015 at 21:32
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As always, Frank Zappa was ahead of his time. Waltz For Guitar is one of the earliest pieces of twelve-note serialism ever written for classical guitar. Frank Zappa was 18 years old when he composed Waltz For Guitar in 1958.
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: October 17 2015 at 01:30
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The thing with the above diminished 7th chords is that all dim 7 chords are inversions (4) of themselves at minor third intervals (rather than different chords). The Oscillation cycles uses these chords as a 5- 4-1 standard song progression (just like any one of millions of songs) with the mild dissonance inside of each chord. Very cool and how to convey a sense of song with the 12 tone scale. Sort of Wild Thing via King Crimson. And a very good way of introducing adventurous sounds into rock. Not as good as the five note minor pentatonic though. ;) hehe |
Posted By: boosted240
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 04:56
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Even punks experimented with serialism... |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 09:41
That was actually pretty interesting - even to a layman like myself who only knows how to play a bit of 'Nothing else matters' and this horrible tune I composed myself called 'Falling down stairs'. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |