Do later mediocre albums diminish better ones?
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Topic: Do later mediocre albums diminish better ones?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Do later mediocre albums diminish better ones?
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 03:59
| Something I picked up from another, albeit at times, sillier prog site. Do later less impressive albums from groups like Yes, with their continual band incarnations with different members, and less stellar albums like Union, somehow diminish the listening pleasure of earlier classic albums like Fragile or CTTE? This has zero effect on me, but how about you? |
Replies:
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:12
| It has zero effect on me as well! The music is always 'as it is'! |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:13
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Definitely not. If anything, they just increase the 'wow' factor of those earlier recordings. Then again, for some folks, maybe their first taste of Yes is Heaven And Earth, they may like it a lot, then hear Relayer and say it's just weird noise....... |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:16
| Indeed, it makes me wonder how those Phil Collins fans in the 80s reacted when they decided to explore his stuff with early Genesis or took a punt on a Brand X album... |
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:19
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One example, Jethro Tull, has so many albums that the few duds do not affect it much. Even Under Wraps has some good songs and charm to it. However, if a group only has 3 albums, I think their whole catalog starts to look weaker. There will always be some groups that have one hit wonders, and finding those gems are worthwhile even if the group doesn't have much else of interest. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:37
| no, it does not happen, a lot of bands I love have screwed things up (Yes, Queensryche, Iron Maiden, Scorpions, Metallica, Def Leppard, even Dream Theater and many others) and released weak albums but this in no way makes me love less the albums I've enjoyed from them. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 04:58
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Zero effect on me too. |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 05:13
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Also zero effect on me. Every album should be judged individually. ------------- 
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Posted By: Gamera
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 05:31
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Quite the contrary as far as I'm concerned. If a band has made some incredible albums, I'll tend to think of lesser albums as "pure crap" instead of "not that good" because I'll think of what they've already been able to do. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 08:05
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A mediocre album cannot diminish the listening pleasure of earlier albums, but it may affect my interest in the band. ------------- 
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Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 11:22
I read the reviews on this site now, so have never listened to Union, but as I only started buying music in 1976 I was put off most prog groups by their bin end output. Having eventually discovered the earlier stuff though I would say my pleasure in that has actually been enhanced by the shock of realising just how much better it was  .
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 11:42
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Such albums may diminish the reputation of the artists involved, but not the earlier better albums. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 11:57
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Lesser albums do not change my opinion of better albums or the band in general. |
Posted By: Joćo Reis
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 12:08
Novo trabalho do marillion  . |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 12:08
|
A backpacker is traveling through Ireland when it starts to rain. He decides to wait out the storm in a nearby pub. The only other person at the bar is an older man staring at his drink. After a few moments of silence the man turns to the backpacker and says in a thick Irish accent: "You see this bar? I built this bar with my own bare hands. I cut down every tree and made the lumber myself. I toiled away through the wind and cold, but do they call me McGreggor the bar builder? No." He continued "Do you see that stone wall out there? I built that wall with my own bare hands. I found every stone and placed them just right through the rain and the mud, but do they call me McGreggor the wall builder? No." "Do ya see that pier out there on the lake? I built that pier with my own bare hands, driving each piling deep into ground so that it would last a lifetime. Do they call me McGreggor the pier builder? No." "But ya f**k one goat.." ------------- |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 12:47
Exactly. This is avery weird concept to me that a bad album can diminish the strength/enjoyment of a good one. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Progosopher wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 13:51
yeah.. end of conversation. Either judge the artist on the whole for which the stinkers are not forgiven.. or the album for which the stinkers mean jack sh*t. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Terrapin Station
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 16:02
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No. Also, every Yes album is a 10/10 in my book. |
Posted By: BunBun
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 16:24
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Not at all. Most artists have one or two stinkers, but a great album is a great album regardless of what else the band has released |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 20:46
| No. And I don't think many people would think that way, for then most albums would be diminished once the band/artist starts losing it's edge... which happens to almost all of them. |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 20:51
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Enjoy the good, forget the bad ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 06:56
This . . . ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 08:02
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No effect on me at all. I listen to the good and ignore the bad. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 08:28
 ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 09:50
Exactly the way l feel.
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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 10:03
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It has a very big effect on me. Because I always follow the latest releases by artists. Specifically, I follow the latest releases that come out in 2016. When your 2016 new release impresses me, I'm in a good mood and I grab the earlier releases as well. When your 2016 new release doesn't do much for me, there's no way I'm grabbing your earlier releases. So it diminishes the earlier ones. But all of this has one precondition: I haven't actually heard the earlier releases. If I've heard Close to the Edge and already know it's good, obviously this won't have any effect. ------------- 
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Posted By: Terrapin Station
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 10:13
| I don't ever make a general judgment about an artist based on just one release (well, at least not when they have multiple releases). I'll check out other stuff they did, too, and I'll research whether they had different stylistic periods to make sure I'm not only checking stuff out from a minority of their different phases. |
Posted By: CapnBearbossa
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 10:53
Back in school days (yes 80's), I was an avid Phil/Genesis and Phil-solo fan - the Genesis self-titled and Hello I Must Be Going were my bread and butter. My travels backward through time (and the record bin) took me next to W&W and Trick Of The Tail, both of which sounded great to me, even on first listen. Peter Gabriel and his work with Genesis were a little more difficult for a young and naive American to absorb. (Uniquely British in a way I'd never experienced...) But I triumphed over my bias, and of course Gabriel/Genesis became my next obsession. ------------- Will higher mighty force redeem the one who dropped the moral compass, failed to fulfill the dream? -Ian Anderson |
Posted By: doompaul
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 11:09
| A lot of times when a band releases a "stinker" it was because they were trying to expand their horizons and try something new creatively. Even if I don't like the album, I can appreciate the effort involved. This in no way would diminish the glory of a masterpiece. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 11:44
| They don't diminish better ones at all. Can't expect any band to be firing on all six cylinders all the time. It doesn't ruin previous greatness. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 01:39
|
If mediocre or bad albums don't diminish the good ones, it can, albeit, lead the listeners to wonder what happened between each record: were the good albums some lucky accidents? Did an outsider write the good material for the band? If these considerations won't make someone loathe the early records, it still could make reconsider the attachment to said band. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 02:34
|
Good example - PhilCo would never had made millions in 1983 by playing drums in 11/8................ Survival is the key............still don't hate on someone who is capable and has 'proven' themselves. |
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 02:43
|
I must add, that I find that a lot of album-reviewers diminish or bash albums released in the 80's. Sometimes without even listening to them. Apparently the 80's has left people with a sour taste in their mouth, and can't listen to albums released from 1977 up till (at least) 1991 without bias. I know it's not really on-topic, but it's something I noticed througout the w-w-web. "Oh, this album by my favourite seventies band is released in 1984? Then it must be crap" Pity....
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Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 02:48
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Also, sometimes when I 'discover' a band, and I stumble upon a bad or mediocre release, I lose interest in discovering more of that band. But that's not good. That way I don't give a band the chance to wow me or win me over. Examples: Supertramp, Genesis, Tool, Radiohead, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc. They are all bands, that I discovered via bad songs (not in my taste), and I cast them aside. Later in my life, I found out that they indeed put out some excellent songs/albums. Well, never too late, to (re-)discover bands and music. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 03:05
| Through the years, I've come to accept the 'shortcomings' of the 80's era music. I recall at the time, say, Invisible Touch, sounded pristine and up-to-date in pure fidelity. Now it sounds like crap. But I still love Genesis. And I love 'The Way We Walk - Vol. 2 The Longs' coz they can still play perfect Prog. |
Posted By: Kingsnake
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 03:11
|
Some bands failed miserably in the 80's, but some excelled in the 80's. I prefer 80's Rush to 70's Rush any time of the day. Also bands like Saga, Marillion, It Bites sounded better and fresher during the 80's. I love how the 80's sound is re-emerging. Casting the grungy/alternative sound of the 90's aside. But hey, every era has it's flaws and it's pros. I love early seventies hammonds and mono-recordings aswell. Another band I cast aside because of hitsingles I didn't like is Muse.
Never gave them a proper chance. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 03:26
Each to their own I guess, although I think your logic is back to front. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 06:34
Having lived through my teenage years in the early 80s I'll always love and be biased in favour of the music of this era, but the thing is that Prog in the 80s certainly wasn't the place where the new fresh exciting things in music were going on (good late 70s and early 80s bands that made it into Progarchives like Talking Heads and This Heat were progressive but certainly didn't set out to fit into the existing Prog genre). Genesis at the time were not progressing music in the least, even where they still sounded "proggy" to some extent; some other prog artists such as Fripp/King Crimson actually did something new and fresh and I appreciate this much more (which makes some criticise the Discipline era rather ridiculously for "sounding like the Talking Heads"). Of course knowing 80s Genesis will not diminish my pleasure when listening to "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight" - but still when thinking about how much I appreciate bands and artists overall, this makes Genesis rank much lower for me than for example Fripp/KC or Hammill. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 06:49
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Actually, I can think of a good example of this happening, but it's not prog. (The purists can now stop reading this post). I was a huge U2 fan in the mid 80s to mid 90s, even though I thought the band themselves were, shall we say, a bit burdened by excessive self-regard. I was able to forgive that because they seemed so obviously sincere, particularly in their political beliefs. In the early 90s, they released a couple of albums which even showed some signs of irony, which I thought was a good sign because it might leaven their sense of self-importance. The in the late 90s, U2 released an album called Pop which was the most coldly calculating pseudo-hipsterish piece of trash I ever heard, and it really spoiled listening to the earlier albums for a long time. Although I listen to them again now, I haven't really bothered to hear any of their new stuff for 20 years. I was just appalled that they sold out so thoroughly in an attempt to gain some kind of imaginary hipster rep. OTOH, I never had any issue with reconciling prog-Genesis with pop-Genesis. First, they were essentially two different bands (albeit with some members in common) and second, I like clever pop music and that's what pop-Genesis was all about.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 07:37
| well, later cruddy albums don't affect the way I look at the early masterpieces, but it certainly affects my view about the reasons and ethics of the surviving band members keeping the band going well pas its prime. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 07:42
Guess what, if their Pop intent were indeed those you claim (and I don't see a reason to doubt you), they failed heavily  U2 were huge from 83 to 93, but with Pop, they just became another rock band... Their new albums are barely noticeable on mainstream radio since then, and only get regular treatment on classic rock station in the old world.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 08:00
hipsters in 1997? I've always liked Pop. Nothing wrong with it if you ask me. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 02 2016 at 21:46
I thought it was total rubbish. I'm not disputing your enjoyment of it. I thought it was very cynical and I loathed it.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 03 2016 at 01:15
oh yes, it was definitely cynical... and I can see how that album could ruin whatever image their fans built around the band's aura between albums like Fire and Achtung Baby... But I wouldn't call it rubbish either... I guess that after Achtung, the band was stuck, not really knowing where to go: Zooropa and the "Passenger thing" here anything-goes experiences and should not have been taken seriously (IMHO, anyways) in the band's discography Thing is that while the band straightened out their discourse in their next few albums, but they were simply never at their level again since. |
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 03 2016 at 08:05
I kind of got the point of Achtung, it was serious but ironic and it worked for me. Zooropa was the beginning of the slide downhill. I would have stuck around, even if the albums diminished in quality (All That You Can't Leave Behind, for example, has some really good songs on it), but it was the cynicism of Pop as much as the bad music that put me off.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 03 2016 at 19:00
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Listening to bands is like having relationships. You listen quite attentively for awhile until the conversations become tedious. Then you ditch the b*tch. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: maryes
Date Posted: September 04 2016 at 10:13
| I can mention later mediocre ( in my point of view, of course ) albums as for instance : "Big Generator" from YES, "Love Beach" from EL&P, "Vapor Trails" from RUSH etc... But , none of these albums make me feel "dislike" in relation their previous masterpieces !!! |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: September 04 2016 at 21:38
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: September 05 2016 at 10:33
Classy. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 05 2016 at 10:36
Prog is a very classy genre. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Richey Edwards
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 07:44
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Bad albums don't diminish my enjoyment of previous excellent albums. Marillion - my favourite band - released the dreadful Less Is More Album in 2009 and the concert I saw on that tour at the Glasgow Ferry was really bad. It made me consider whether or not I would bother getting any future releases because I got the impression that the band had ran out of ideas but I never ditched them completely.
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Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 10:12
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Like most contributors to this thread, I feel that mediocre or even outright bad albums do not diminish the appreciation of earlier good albums in any way. Why should, for instance, Close to the Edge be a less excellent album just because there are such things as 90125 (not a bad album, but not on a par with the classics)? That's just nonsense. Often, as in this example, the bands are not even the same because people have joined and others have left in the meantime. And even the greatest artists may sometimes goof up a work - but why bother if there is good stuff to listen to? ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: EleMental
Date Posted: September 17 2016 at 01:41
| For me, the reverse is true. If a band turns in an accomplished new album, I often enjoy re-immersing myself in their back catalogue at the same time, including less compelling earlier albums. |
Posted By: Richard Tyson
Date Posted: September 22 2016 at 14:05
| My first album was Abacab when it came out: my second was Trespass: it really was chalk and cheese but I took to early Genesis very quickly. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: September 22 2016 at 14:37
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^Explain "chalk and cheese", squire. Was Abacab the chalk (of which I would rather play it [sans No Reply At All] than Less-pass). ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 23 2016 at 14:03
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: fishbender
Date Posted: September 23 2016 at 14:27
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You could see the changes happening all the way through to Duke, IMHO the last real Genesis album. Never bought another album after Duke, but still my all time favourite band. Saw them Knebworth 1978, still the best show I have ever seen. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 23 2016 at 15:37
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Zero effect on me and for the most part I don't buy/own later albums by ELP, Yes, Genesis....if they are stinkers. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 23 2016 at 18:05
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No, in fact I'd say they enhance the appreciation of the better ones. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |