If you had to guess which are the most popular prog bands today by country (concert attendance primarily but also sales and general reputation if you like) which bands would you put on such a list?

I'd be curious to see a breakdown by country or even by region some cases.

I was also thinking about which prog bands besides the well known British and North American bands can actually tour a decent outside their own borders i.e. not just for prog festivals.

For example, can any French band besides Magma or Gong manage a real tour outside France or a band besides PFM outside Italy?

Can any Japanese prog band tour abroad etc?

Thanks!

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: Magma toured the USA recently and Gong are planning a tour. Steve Wilson tours the USA regularly and I'm seeing Nik Bartsch Ronin for the third time in the USA soon. Leprous and Haken are currently touring the USA.

Ronin falls under jazz and fusion for me (and most people I know; I have seen them too)  and so they tour in that manner.  Gong and Magma were examples of bands who can pull it off like I mentioned. and other than them and perhaps PFM I am having trouble thinking of bands from continental Europe who can tour outside their home countries per se. I don't think any Japanese prog bands are doing much outside Japan but I'd love to hear the contrary.

Can you think of any others? Wilson for the purposes of this example is almost more like Yes or Crimson than he is the other prog artists of his age or younger and definitely one of the very biggest.

I suppose it might make sense to include prog metal given the scarcity of more recognizable prog names these days.

Cheers!

tribalfusions wrote: For example, can any French band besides Magma or Gong manage a real tour outside France or a band besides PFM outside Italy?

I think it's hard to say with any certainty for Australia - our "prog rock" scene is so fragmented across multiple states and dominated at moment by Djent/alt metal bands that nonetheless have the "prog rock" label slapped on them. That's the impression I have anyway, based on general visibility, tours and the lineups at the "ProgFests" (which have only been held in the Eastern states in recent years).

In terms of current profile and sales etc, I'd nominate: Karnivool, they have very effectively ridden the Triple J tiger for a long time (a national ABC radio network that is the main avenue for independent Aussie music but not known for it's friendliness toward prog).

In terms of general reputation over an extended time, Spectrum might get the gong? Based I think on Mike Rudd and co. doing the hard grind in the early '70's travelling the nation and performing their jammy/head music songs at rock festivals in various states. I've found a level of name recognition here in Adelaide with people in their late 50's onward that surprises me, considering that their presence on mainstream radio has for as long as I can remember been limited to 1 occasionally played song. Having a hit single very early on (the bluesy "I'll be gone") would help too, as perhaps would having had their first and second albums reissued beautifully by Aztec and so available again in recent years. Mike Rudd does still has an active lineup of Spectrum, mostly doing gigs around Melbourne (as it seems to me).

Some of the current crop of heavy Aussie bands have done overseas tours but not sure how many (if any) bands or artists would or could attempt a headline tour. The bands Unitopia (defunct) and Southern Empire (very much alive) would have a profile that I suspect would fit well into overseas rock festivals and (imho) deserve a place there too, based on the quality of their music and their live performance. The cohort of djenty/alt-metal oriented bands here in Oz would probably do equally well at overseas metal festivals too, at a guess...

Italy: PFM, Banco, Le Orme , Goblin, New Trolls(?), not sure about any newer bands

Canada: Saga, FM, 

Spain: ?

Germany: Amon Duul 2, Eloy, Faust, Popul Vuh, Triumvirat

Sweden: Mostly just the prog metal bands. Maybe Anglagard and Anekdoten too.

Netherlands: Focus, Supersister, Kayak

Mexico: ? (maybe Cast or Cabezas Di Cera)

I actually don't think there are many in South America, Mexico or Japan. I don't have much information that would suggest many lesser known bands sell much either. Some of them played at festivals such as prog day, Nearfest, Progfest and Baja prog. Typically festivals are the best bet for most bands who are not house hold names in the prog world. 

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: Germany: Amon Duul 2, Eloy, Faust, Popul Vuh, Triumvirat

As much as I feel they should cease activity, the current incarnation of Tangerine Dream could easily do a limited tour of major cities in the States: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia and Boston.

Yep, forgot about them for some reason. I agree though. There's no link between the current lineup and the classic lineup at all. Forget about original members. There's not even one current TD member who was even there in the 90's. Time to call the band something else imo.

It's sad. I guess they're continuing with Edgar's and Bianca's blessing, but still...maybe they could call themselves Zeit or something. 

Speaking of former members, Peter Baumann spent some time in Paul Haslinger's studio a while back. Not sure what they did, since there's been no further news. Peter's new solo album was great, though.

USA - TSO are massive and probably outsell anyone else concert wise.

tribalfusions wrote: I don't think any Japanese prog bands are doing much outside Japan but I'd love to hear the contrary.

Electric Asturias from Japan have been appearing regularly at festivals. I saw them on Cruise to the Edge 2014, and they've been on a few other cruises since then.  I think they also did Rosfest. But as the OP pointed out, a festival appearance is not a "tour".

Soft Machine toured recently too I think.

BrufordFreak wrote: IF you're talking popularity and concert attendance, you probably have to go with older, well-established bands. I bet Yes, Genesis, Kansas, Rush, Los Jaivas, Riverside, and PFM would draw more concertgoers and album sales than Big Big Train, Bent Knee, Mystery, Hominído, Votum, or La Coscienza di Zeno would, though the more recent output of these latter bands might be of higher quality than those of the former.

I think you're correct regarding the greater popularity of older bands for a lot of the more significant prog nations like the US, UK or France. For some other countries though it will look different i.e.Opeth for Sweden or Ayreon for the Netherlands perhaps which is not the kind of 'old' most people would be thinking of even if it isn't totally new either.

I wasn't expecting Los Jaivas to be cited there and although their touring is almost entirely within Chile's borders, I guess they are a good candidate within Chile itself.

I'm definitely more interested in bands which can tour outside their own borders for the purposes of this thread barring some unusual circumstances or perhaps the absence of any bands from the country being able to tour so picking the next best thing etc.

For example, I don't think any Japanese band tours outside Japan (I don't mean festival one offs) so it's better to use domestic criteria regarding popularity (# of shows and venue sizes, record sales etc) to have some idea.

That was definitely my thinking too regarding Sweden from the numbers I have seen from Opeth and Meshuggah. They would be 2 of the biggest from any country from the last 25 years in fact.

Actually PFM are a lot bigger than you realize. They played a 2700 capacity theater in Mexico City, 2500 capacity in Buenos Aires, an 8000 capacity venue in Sao Paolo, a 1400 capacity theater in Rome, 2500 in Padua and the 700 capacity Highline Ballroom in NY among other spots just recently.

They actually are a candidate for biggest non-English language group in the world for prog.

Goblin can't do those numbers in most of those territories though I agree they are riding a wave of retro interest in giallo movies in the US in particular along with a few other spots and deserve a mention too (I confess I never really thought of Goblin as all that prog either though they fit the broad definition in use here). Goblin don't tour South America unlike PFM who are genuinely big there but on the other hand Goblin have better numbers for North America where I think they are viewed as a gimmick band essentially.

Thanks! You do have some good ones in your list but I have the impression that some of those are definitely not in the running; Mona Lisa or Supersister never even did more than a handful of shows abroad and not too many at home either.

I'd say many of of those are primarily 'festival only' bands in terms of live performances though maybe that's more than what the others from those territories can do.  But Focus is definitely way bigger than Supersister for example in terms of record sales and venue sizes for example as Magma is compared to Mona Lisa.

I think Cabezas de Cera is a good call for Mexico too. I think it's probably Amon Duul 2 for Germany from the numbers I can find as well with the possible exception of Tangerine Dream depending on what you think of them I suppose.

Hrychu wrote: Poland: SBB (the 70s), Riverside (modern)

Thanks good call on both of those. Care to try any other of the neighboring countries perhaps?

I agree with you on that. Do most here think of them as prog at this point?

True, they definitely belong on there in terms of shows though there are some other factors that make bands like Dream Theater or Kansas as well as Mastodon perhaps more relevant in terms of overall awareness of the bands around the world and ability to tour beyond the holiday season in the US (which admittedly is a big country). I'd mention Steely Dan too in a broad sense.

Phish should also be mentioned. Even though I don't care for them and they are almost entirely US based, they certainly are still huge in the US and proggy-ish to a degree and I suppose Umphrey's McGee should be mentioned too. Coheed and Cambria deserve a nod as well.

I'd much rather mention the Dregs though they don't have these numbers but they did surprise me with their relatively good draw on their last US tour which almost certainly was the final tour from what Steve Morse has said.

Honorable mentions to Neal Morse and Todd Rundgren.

I just saw them last night in fact and they are playing Progtoberfest this weekend :)

Good point and interesting that the only Japanese band singled out so far is one that has barely done any shows outside of Japan, though perhaps still more than any other contemporary Japanese prog band in recent years.

Do we have any specialists on Japanese prog here who might have some information on this topic?

The only other bands I can think of with any connection to prog from Japan who play abroad to some degree are Dir En Grey and X Japan though in both cases I admit it's a stretch or a band like Galneryus which might appeal to Dream Theater fans though I think they are considerably less prog.

I'm the OP and I didn't specify just touring the US alone, I asked which bands could tour outside their own borders. The US is relevant but it's not the only relevant point. South America and other places are every bit as relevant.

I agreed Goblin was well worth a mention so thanks for that. I do think it bears pointing out that their popularity is at its peak in the US but way lower in other spots where they do not play at all like South America for example. And it bears pointing out that in North America, they are marketed in conjunction with horror/giallo more than anything else.

You seem to be making South America into somehow being less relevant but I'd say that an Italian band playing to thousands of people there in multiple countries is incredibly rare. 

In fact, PFM is practically the only non UK/US band doing that in fact (other than Opeth or Meshuggah who sing in English) and they are playing venues which are bigger than anything Goblin has ever done anywhere in the world.

And in Italy, PFM is bigger than Goblin too for that matter in most ways. The fact that they also can do a 700 capacity theater in NY is evidence that they have more popularity across the board as the US is a weaker territory for them and they can still pull that off.

In contrast, Goblin don't play Buenos Aires or Sao Paolo at all much less in 3000 or 8000 seaters.

Goblin are an odd example because really their notoriety is so film related and as such quite different i.e. 'gimmicky' in terms of perception and promotion in places where the hipsterish trend of elevating giallo has taken hold.

Thanks. I can't speak for the consensus on this site but I know that they never come up as being relevant to prog among any of the people I know who are interested in prog so I rarely even think of them in that context.

I took a listen to shows from their last couple of tours and admit I am hard pressed to see them as more prog than some DJs I know but again if they can be considered prog enough by most people here, that's more than ok for purposes of this discussion.

I do think there are obviously huge differences between them and Yes/Genesis in terms of being seen as a prog band by prog fans in many ways but for purposes of discussion I think a big tent approach is best for this topic.

Yes, you are. Sorry about that.

I just pointed it out due to frequency. But Goblin plays outside Italy quite a bit, as does Claudio Simonetti's Goblin (formerly Daemonia). 

No, I said "South America's much more receptive to non-English language prog bands." (And so is Japan.) Goblin's instrumental, which gives them the edge in the US, along with the giallo-horror connection. They're not playing large venues, they're playing nice theaters to very enthusiastic audiences. 

And that's great. I'm not here to disparage any of these bands. I'm just pointing out what one particular band has been doing as of late.

I hear you and once again, thanks for pointing Goblin out. They definitely merit inclusion in this discussion even if I think that PFM is the bigger band overall. Both bands are unusually successful either way.

Since this is an English language board, I actually imagined that most here wouldn't be aware quite how big PFM are in Mexico, Brazil or Argentina and may not be aware of venue sizes in Italy either. They really are an incredible success story in many regards.

I'm not sure I can think of another prog band singing in anything other than English at that level. Maybe Magma is the closest though the numbers appear significantly lower.

I gather you're not too familiar with Tangerine Dream. They emerged as a band straddling the greying boundaries of Krautrock and psychedelia before they forged new paths in synthesizer-centric progressive. 

I'd recommend sampling some of their '70s albums to get a feel for what they're really about. (For now, disregard anything you may have heard circa 1990-2000.)

Electronic Meditation (1970 – more for the curio factor)

Zeit (1972)

Phaedra (1974 – the album that put them "on the map")

Rubycon (1975 – an atmospheric tour de force)

Ricochet (1975)

Stratosfear (1976 – more eclectic in feel, one of my favorites)

Sorcerer (1977)

Encore (1978)

Cyclone (1978 – Side A has vocals)

Force Majeure (1979 – another enduring favorite)

Green Desert (1986 – an album originally tracked in '73 and "finished" in '84)

Banco also played Mexico, Japan, South America and the US (I saw them headline ProgFest 2000, which was held in a small but very nice theater in eastern Los Angeles). They got a new vocalist after Francesco passed away. Along with PFM and Le Orme, they're one of the "big three" of RPI.

Thanks. I've heard some but not all of those and am listening to some more now. I don't hear them as being all that proggy in their harmonies, melodies and rhythms as opposed to some of the timbres now and then.

They often sound like soundtrack work/pop albeit with some of the more typical prog sounds to me. Maybe I haven't found the right tracks but I could easily have seen all of this as soundtrack work in the background and not much remarked upon.

I get the general vibe and can see why someone might like the music. I also see it has a connection to the prog of its time but I struggle to imagine that prog fans around the world would see this as central to the 'core' of prog like old Genesis and Yes were.

Still, I'm happy enough to include them in discussions here.

I lived in Italy at length and am very familiar with Italian prog and yes Banco and Le Orme are both definitely of note and deserve to be discussed here so thanks for that.  However Banco can't really tour outside of Italy besides the festivals and neither can Le Orme and definitely not in 2500--3000 seaters. PFM's booking is a of a different caliber abroad for sure. 

I could post track after track of early Tangerine Dream with quite basic harmony, rhythm and melodies which would be at home in pop, particularly if the compositions were less extended in time or background music for film. New age music from the 70s perhaps one might say.

I don't really intend to debate this in this thread but I'm a musician and have played and taught in music schools and conservatories for years around the world and mean something quite a bit more specific here to the extent it matters.

Maybe you're focusing on timbre and length of composition primarily but what I am describing regards the basic building blocks of much of their music.

Many of the more prominent qualities associated with prog like tempo changes, odd meter, extended chordal harmony, melodic source material drawn from scales beyond simple major scale or straight pentatonic melodies are not exactly in overabundance there either.  It could still easily be background incidental music for film and were I to play it for people unfamiliar with the group, they would generally assume it was that as opposed to music by a prog rock band first and foremost.

I stand by my original statement that it's mostly a question of timbre and pace in TD's case that associates them with prog and as such I don't see them nearly as central to prog as Yes or Genesis. Not by a long shot.

If you disagree, that's great but please let's have that out in a dedicated thread and not here where I have already stated that they are worth including in the general discussion of prog popularity even if I don't think much of them as a prog band per se.

Instead of an answer:

This is pop?

verslibre wrote: Tribal, it sounds to me like your definition of prog is classical symphonic progressive. Prog isn't defined only by myriad key and tempo changes within the space of five bars. TD's aesthetic is different. They're not fusion, they're not Zeuhl. They're Tangerine Dream. They're one of the bands that made the world safe for Teutonic and ambient electronic styles. They're very much a progressive group in that regard.

My criteria don't regard symphonic progressive any more than they do any other genre like jazz-rock, zeuhl etc. 

The point is that is if one's melodic structures come from certain source material and one's harmonic vocabulary comes from a certain place, then it can easily be 'pop' vocabulary. TD's vocabulary is a lot closer to pop in that sense while their timbres and the length and pace of the tunes are obviously not.

That is why I say that it sounds like pop music to me in its essentials where Gentle Giant, Mahavishnu, Henry Cow, Magma or many others, all different from each other, do not. It's not their timbre or pacing which make them progressive. It's the deeper structures.

I'm not interested in debating that here though; let's make a thread in the general discussion about it.

I asked you nicely not to derail the thread with this discussion and I have entertained the questions to a point. Please post it as its own topic please as it is not relevant here.

I already answered you: yes the source material in terms of harmony, rhythm etc is not out of place in pop. There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog.

The timbres, the pacing and time expended in TD's music are obviously not common in pop but in fact would work well as background music for film or as new age music.

If you think that's enough to be prog, absolutely your choice and I am sure some would agree however I also think it's one of the reasons TD don't come up for most people in terms of prog like Yes or Genesis as being absolutely central to the tradition.

Now can you please respect the thread topic and create your own thread if you want to have extended discussion about this?

Thanks in advance.

Then I am afraid I must point out to you that the source material of those bands you cite (Yes, Genesis) is not so far from pop as you claim; the harmonic material is in my opinion generally pretty basic. And I am a trained musician myself; I play about 20 different woodwind instruments and violin and viola.

How many times do you have to be asked nicely not to derail the thread and to start your own?

I have no idea what a trained musician means but I train musicians myself directly in music schools and conservatories for a living, not as a hobby. Prog rock is a hobby for me but music decidedly is not.

If one has the proper 'training' and analyzes the elements I mentioned it's fairly obvious what I have in mind in regard to TD when I liken it to background film/new age music and similar to pop in another sense but again I ask you nicely to please stop discussing this here before I ask a moderator to intervene.

Again, I have already stated that although I don't see them as being very central to prog rock, they are welcome here as far as the topic was concerned.

So let's get back to the topic itself.

My dear sir, you have some nerve to come up with this yourself and then "nicely" ask not to derail the thread.

Though being a musician is not my primary profession music is most definitely more than a hobby for me; I write my own compositions and have had in-depth training. Fortunately I don't have to make a living with music; my primary job is extremely well paid.

Yet AGAIN you feel the need to derail the thread. You were asked several times by the OP (myself) to drop it but you continue every time.

Like the typical internet bore, when the thread isn't about what you want to discuss and the OP himself asks you repeatedly to drop it, you still just HAVE to have your way.

How many times do you have to be asked to drop it before you get it?

I am not interested in your views on Tangerine Dream here beyond whether they should be considered one of the most popular prog bands in Germany and around the world etc. Once that was answered (and it was), there's no more need to debate how prog they are or are not here beyond the initial exchange of views.

 

This is not a thread on Tangerine Dream specifically. In fact I am specifically saying it is NOT about them so stop it.

Can someone please tell me how to contact a moderator to clean up this thread and take care of this poster?

Thanks

Yes and I have stopped responding to him in fact but I do not appreciate my thread being hijacked when it's clear that the point has been addressed and that it's not relevant enough to consume the whole thread as it was doing.

The disagreement was about a peripheral issue and I had already stated repeatedly that TD are prog enough for the purposes of the thread so there was no reason to keep discussing it here.

Perhaps instead of assigning blame to a new member who asked someone on a crusade to open up his own thread, you might have a word for the fellow on his crusade. That same member also took the liberty of sending me an unsolicited and insulting private message which is further indication of some issues I will leave to the moderators.

Now that we have that out of the way, it would be lovely if you had some input into the original question under discussion.

My sister did not hi-jack the thread at all; this is merely in your imagination. To accuse her of all people of attention-seeking is plain ridiculous. She gets into contact with some of the most powerful people in the world on a regular basis in her line of work, so she definitely does not need this kind of attention.

As my sister rightly pointed out it was you who first deviated from the subject; she merely responded to your deviation.

As if the thread needed more of this...and from that poster's sister no less.

I didn't deviate from the subject; I simply asked if people here considered TD prog which what is relevant to this thread. Once that was fairly well established, that was the end of that line of inquiry in any reasonable person's mind regardless of my own view on the band.

It wasn't an open invitation for endless debate on that topic and I suggested repeatedly that if that was of such interest, then a thread should be opened to discuss that.

As for your assertion that having a position which offers contact with powerful people precludes poor behavior in some other environment, it's a patently illogical point.

One could just as easily argue the opposite; that a person habituated to such an environment internalizes certain behaviors and sublimates certain resentments etc. And such a person feels a compulsion to send unsolicited insulting private messages. 

I suppose it's too much to ask that we skip this absurd discussion entirely and post about the question posed originally?

 

Luxembourg -

Liechtenstein -

Vatican City -

San Marino -

Mauritius - 

Lesotho -

Swaziland -

Bhutan -

Iceland - Björk!!!!!!!

if you make unsubstantial claims about a band you should expect that people react to that. I totally agree with you about certain things in the music of TD, to quote you: "There's no altered scale in sight, no 7 against 15 etc things which might happen in any number of prog subgenres, not just in symphonic prog."

however, what you are doing here is the musical equivalent of trying to measure a length with a scale. early Tangerine Dream, especially the albums "Alpha Centauri", "Atem" and "Zeit", are not about scales, rhythms or melodies, and it is not just the tempo that is different; they are about sounds, atmosphere and electronic experiments. and these have nothing to do with pop at all

You really haven't heard the diverse spectrum that Tangerine Dream has recorded. Check out "Electronic Meditation" for example. Pure Krautrock all the way through. True, TD has implemented pop hooks here and there and not considered prog rock per se but certainly has proven itself within that context as well albeit on rare occasions. Progressive electronic is a completely different beast that is included here for the sheer influence it had on the prog universe. Therefore it gets kind of a special category. It's progressive most of the time, just not rock all of the time.

I have no idea but I guess Prog is as unpopular as it is here.

Peru - Flor De Loto

Chile - R-U Kaiser

Siberia - Pika Pika Teart

Uzbekistan - FromUZ

Poland - Lizard

Belgium - Quantum Fantay

Switzerland - Sonar

Romania - Tunderground

Serbia - Tripcycle

They are basically an all-female hyper-math-rock band with some catchiness thrown in.

You were looking for the most popular prog bands and artists though right? So being that this is a prog website you will get the most popular acts in the prog genre. 

Other than the most obvious bands I think most have already been covered. I will say that anything metal or metal related seems to be popular and also anything post rock or crossover. 

No, I don't have any guesses other than what I already guessed. 

Good call on that. They are one of the very few from Japan touring abroad with some more obvious prog tendencies. I'm struggling to think of others in fact. Do you know any?