Prog metal and jazz
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128026
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Topic: Prog metal and jazz
Posted By: Duddick
Subject: Prog metal and jazz
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 12:55
| I personally can’t see any appeal in anything remotely metal related - the whole ethos just turns me off, I’m afraid. One thing I have noticed though is a lot of metal fans are not keen on jazz or fusion (both of which I love). Any views/ thoughts?!?! |
Replies:
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:04
I don't know what you mean by "ethos turning you off", but I like fusion and a little bit of jazz. I still listen to a lot of metal, throughout the years it's got more diverse, I do enjoy a lot of it. There are also metalheads that do listen to little bit of prog, I wouldn't be surprised they know a bit about jazz as well.
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Duddick wrote:Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:06
| I was a huge metalhead, and I still am a metal music listener. I am more of a classical guy than jazz. But there are jazz and fusion albums that I like very much. Actually I prefer listening to jazz while being performed live. Especially if the music includes free improvsations. For most metalheads, jazz could be a bit too sophisticated. As our regular metal music is quintessentially quite simple. I frankly have no idea if your generalisation is correct or not. Even when I was a huge metalhead, I was quite out of the ordinary. But I can say that most of my metalhead buddies had no interest in jazz music. So, you could be right. |
Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:18
| I know I’m going to get pilloried for this but I think metal is an attitude you choose to buy into. I personally don’t. There are so many things I dislike about it but each to their own. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:28
I dislike certain aspects as well, certain kind of fans and listeners, people that listen exclusively to metal are rather intolerant usually, dismissive of other kinds of music, a lot of times impossible to have a chat with. There are metal subgenres that I dislike or can't get into. Also worth mentioning, since your thread is called "progressive metal and jazz", fusion/JRF music, guitarists especially have usually influenced prog metal guitarists/musicians, so that's that.
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:34
| I'm keen on both jazz and metal. The group Panzerballett combine both with killer results. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:39
Exivious combines fusion and metal quite nicely as well. Alex Skolnick of Testament had a jazz project at some point, great stuff. David t. Chastain, guitarist of the band Chastain did a fusion album in the late 90s, quite good.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 13:39
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I'd say the connecting feature in both quality metal & quality jazz is complexity, so it's not surprising prog fans often like both. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:09
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Almost (but not) every fan of metal I know is also a fan of jazz, and vice versa. Yes, I know some people who like metal, but not jazz (or jazz, but not metal), but they are definitely the minority. The fact there are so many bands that play a metal/jazz hybrid shows that it is not just the fanbases who can appreciate both genres, but the musicians, too. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:10
Oops. Lost a long(ish) post. Anyway, too lazy to rewrite it now. All I can say is that metal didn't change my attitude. I was always obstinate and my priority was always logic. I can tell many stories about this going back to my 3-year-old self. Metal music indeed granted me power/energy, but it definitely didn't change my attitude. Plus, I've always canalized my energy with a touch of fantasy. Being a real wizard in the material world would be... nightmarish!  Anyhow, here's a metal band that don't try to destroy the world: |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:12
| I certainly prefer Jazz, or Fusion, over Metal, specially Metal from the 21st Century. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:14
may I ask what metal from the 21st century you have in mind?
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:26
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A few years ago, I googled "Jazz-Metal" (because I thought it might be a novel combination) and got a list that included http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3043" rel="nofollow - Counter-World Experience . ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:30
Wow this thread has lost control.  Ohm; Chris Poland (ex. Megadeth) on guitar. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 14:46
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Before I got into prog, I was into 70s hard rock / heavy metal (but not 80s metal). Although I love Jazz-Rock, I have little interest in Jazz itself. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Homotopy
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 15:17
| Your human brain is not capable of distinguishing such fractions as "% of fusion lovers among [a vague definition of some group of people]" and "% of fusion lovers among metalheads" based just on noisy and statistically insignificant anount of personal observations. It is also extremely unclear what this group of people in the first fraction is. |
Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 15:34
Not keen, sorry. To me it sounds like metal without the riffs, none of the subtlety of jazz in there. Great musicians though
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 15:39
| I believe the band Death incorporate some jazz into their music. Or maybe it was Cynic. One of those bands (maybe both). |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 15:42
both
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Posted By: progmanjum
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 16:37
| I like Metallica to Jonas Hellborg. I like Opeth to Steely Dan. I like Dream Theater to Disco. I like Pain of Salvation to Al DiMeola. Good music is good music. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 17:59
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I prefer jazz- everything from Louie Armstrong to Accordo Dei Contrari. I listen to metal bands like Haken, Dream Theater, Leprous, Opeth, UneXepcT, Sigh, Iapetus, Ahab, and Riverside. It's not a deal breaker, but I shy away from death growls. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 18:05
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Big jazz and metal fan I particularly like brutal jazz that can be fairly metal ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 20:52
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Jazz and fusion over metal anyday ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 21:24
If you want really good jazzy prog metal with growls that are still intelligible, I'd check out Atheist (if you haven't already). Excellent early 90s prog metal with elements of bossa nova and free jazz ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 22:51
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Jazz, metal and prog were my first musical loves and I don’t see any incompatibility there. Of course very old-fashioned jazz snobs - the ones John Zorn & Naked City advised to eat sh*t in 1992 - might not agree. But the many many hybrids that exist between jazz and metal suggest the contrary, and long may they flourish. 2021 example from Cameron Graves: ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 23:19
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^ pretty kick ass, interesting infusion of Latin with heavy rock ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: December 16 2021 at 23:43
Panzerballett came to mind for me too. And Hago. They have one glorious album, and I hope they aren't done.
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 00:09
Sure, to each their own. You can like whatever you want. What you are more likely to get pilloried for is starting an entire thread without even so much as a summary or abstract to identify what empirical analysis led you to such blanket assertions as, "metal is an attitude you choose to buy into" or "...metal fans are not keen on jazz or fusion..." Do you have a foundation for these statements? Or is it just an arbitrary eye test that leads you to come and take a potshot at fans of a genre outside of your scope of enjoyment? ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 00:28
------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 01:15
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Dude wtf, I love both fusion and metal, and can hardly find anyone that agrees. I love Pestilence SPHERES as much as I love Gorguts EROSION and OBSCURA. There's a fine line between technical metal and fusion, and a lot of the classic 70's stuff could legit pass as borderline death metal passages. Lots of Gentle Giant and Yes stuff comes to mind here. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 01:23
| Have to admit I love the Liquid Tension Experiment and Animals as Leaders albums. Beyond that I haven't explored because I'm not a big fusion , metal or jazz rock fan. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 01:42
so well said. I bet these are questions you (and us) will not get an answer to.
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Posted By: PhideauxFan
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 02:56
| I prefer classical music. But sometimes, I listen to Panzerballett (Germany) and Watchtower (USA) for example which put jazz in their metal style. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 06:33
+25 for rounding out that statement in the most metal way possible. And, Mr. Duddick. We all listen to and enjoy different types of music without a required subscription to some perceived aesthetic, as you have implied. However, if there is an "attitude to buy into" in all this, it would appear it is the one you have chosen. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 07:52
Don't really get your drift. There are many of us who equally love jazz and metal and the two mixed together.
-------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 11:00
As I have said before, Metal is not my favorite genre even though I can enjoy it on occasion and have respect when I hear good musicianship. To me, much of it sounds the same and there are only so many ways you can get that crunchy guitar sound. There is no shame in liking it. I am definitely more of a Jazz/Rock Fusion listener as I am a rocker at base but also need to hear virtuosity. I listen to a lot of straight Jazz. Metal is a kind of folk music in that there are specific characteristics to it. Blues also has some specific characteristics, so I consider it another kind of folk. Even though I like the Blues, I will admit much of it sounds the same. As the OP said, there is an ethos to it. A better word might be aesthetics, for there is a certain artistic perspective that comes with every genre of music. Metal tends towards the raw, the emotional (especially anger), while Jazz tends towards sophistication and the intellect. Does this mean there is no level of sophistication and intellect in Metal? Of course not, but those are secondary to the emotion. Does this mean there is no emotion in Jazz? One cannot say so in all seriousness. It is a matter of what is emphasized.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 17 2021 at 11:51
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I'm not sure which metal is the topic from OP, but I don't listen to anything extreme like death or black. As far as Progmetal, not as much as I used to but still listen to some of the older material. Bands like Mind Key, Circus Maximus, Pantommind that kinda stuff I still listen to, there are just so many bands that I don't have much time to appreciate them. And as far as jazz, yea I listen to a lot of it....huge fan of Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers, I much prefer the hard bop, modal stuff from mid late 50s to early 60's. Late 60s into 70s it became more electronic with guitars and electric piano, which that sound does not interest me much. -------------   
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Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: December 18 2021 at 03:11
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For the lolz: Zubatto Syndicate rules. ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: December 18 2021 at 03:22
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^ When it comes to covers of this, I prefer this one. In fact, I love this one! ------------- https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: December 18 2021 at 05:21
Posted By: tamijo_II
Date Posted: December 22 2021 at 12:56
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I like it all jazz prog metal and beyond, especially any mix of those. To me it’s all about some degree of uniqueness, preferably combined with some technical perfection, but that is not the most important. ------------- Same person as this profile: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=22524" rel="nofollow - Tamijo |
Posted By: Argentinfonico
Date Posted: December 22 2021 at 13:09
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Have you heard http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=23455" rel="nofollow - Exivious ? ------------- -Will I see you tonight? -I never make plans that far ahead. Casablanca (1942) |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: December 22 2021 at 13:38
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I always felt that Robert Fripp was perhaps the best to combine jazz and metal!! His work on LTIA, S&BB and Red are perfect examples. I cannot think of another player in his league, although Dream Theater guitarist John Petrucci comes close!! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: UncleRust
Date Posted: December 22 2021 at 16:10
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Crimson are a great example of a band who combined many styles & Fripp is one of the greats in my opinion. Personally, I like Metal, Jazz, and Fusion (as well as many other genres). All depends upon mood and whether my wife is likely to judge me harshly at the moment I am putting something on. Growing up, Thelonius Monk had as much influence on me as did Iron Maiden and Yes. When I started learning musical instruments I became obsessed with Al DiMeola and Bill Bruford, but pure enjoyment of any specific music or genre for me is always related to the emotional impact it has on me. My theory - People that listen exclusively to any type of music are either intolerant of things they have not yet experienced or disinterested in music. Doesn't make them bad people necessarily, but they are probably less interesting conversationalists. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 23 2021 at 02:23
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^ Maybe you have to be open to the possibility of hearing certain music in a different way. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: December 23 2021 at 03:39
What do you regard as a "type" of music? ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: UncleRust
Date Posted: December 23 2021 at 07:05
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It is not really about what I view as a type, but rather what any individual would think of. There is likely some variety, I imagine. The way I was thinking, 'type' would probably indicate a genre or some other way of categorizing a specific piece of music. The point I am trying to make is that I know people who intentionally limit their experiences, mostly out of fear or disinterest. That tends to make those specific people a little less interesting to talk to about music.
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Posted By: UncleRust
Date Posted: December 23 2021 at 07:08
Yes, I quite agree that would help. Openness to any topic would help in understanding, and possibly appreciating it.
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