Going down the prog rabbit hole how far do you think you have gotten, and what albums do you think are near the bottom of the rabbit hole. 

I hope this makes sense. 

I find Bandcamp is great for diving down rabbit holes, because you can follow tags to find things that might not have been found otherwise. Alternatively, from one album, I’ve discovered a Bandcamp rabbit hole by following it back to the Bandcamp page for the record label it was released on. Going for a dive down a rabbit hole of a new record label is almost always greatly rewarding and a lot of fun. Heck, any rabbit hole is fun, if you like falling down and exploring music in this almost random and directionless manner. Some of my most favourite albums and artists have been found via my falling down a Bandcamp rabbit hole…

One rabbit hole I often fall into is that of geography. Ever since the internet has made it so much easier to discover music from around the world, I find I have been listening to less and less music from the UK and US. I have bought hardly any new music from the US for many years, unless it has been from a band I already know and like. That is not to say that I think music from the US is no good, so much as I am absolutely loving finding music from throughout the rest of the world.

I don’t think I exactly have an aim of owning music from every country in the world, but I seem to be heading towards that point, regardless. There is so much great music out there, but because of where it has been made and released, a lot of it simply doesn’t have a chance of being heard as much as that from English speaking Western nations. Many of these artists and albums would not be considered to be deep down a rabbit hole, if they had been made and released somewhere else in the world. Their depth in a rabbit hole is due to their geography, rather than their sound.

To give a recent example, I think this is a pretty awesome album from an Argentine band. Released at the beginning of this month, even as a Name Your Price album (which I think is a shocking shame), it is still unlikely to see anything near the popularity it might have if it had been made and released in, eg, England, or on an, again eg, English record label.

https://pajarorock.bandcamp.com/album/el-manifiesto" rel="nofollow - https://pajarorock.bandcamp.com/album/el-manifiesto

I could go on, but I’m aware of how long this post is already, and also the fact that time is marching on, and I really do need to get my children ready for school.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. What is an endgame prog artist?

I didn't understand either. 

That makes three of us. 

Lucky is he who finds a prog album at the bottom of a rabbit hole. On one classic prog album this is sung, as many listeners know:

Quite a few holes to go, I presume. I don't know what to make of "endgame". I think I visit a golf course and see what's in hole 18 .

I assume endgame simply to mean what is found at the bottom of whatever rabbit hole one has fallen down. I could list many, but as per my previous post, it would depend entirely on which rabbit hole I were describing, as there have been many, most of which have taken me to completely different destinations.

I have no friggin idea what this thead is. You need to explain it better.

I agree with Nick though about geography.

I have discovered so many talented musicians by just scouring the archives of RYM and looking for artists from lesser known parts of the world.

The West pretty much monopolizes the music industry in many ways but if you actually look deeper in various far flung nations of the world, you will find bands equal or even better than the more famous ones that everybody raves about. In some cases the famous bands simply stole ideas from other bands from poorer nations.

I'll have to check out that Argentine band.

This is pretty much why, although this is now the third post I’ve made in this thread, I’ve not named any artist/band/album. For any one rabbit hole I do find the bottom of, there are hundreds of others out there to explore. And we all know how rabbits multiply, so the number of rabbit holes is really infinite…

That is my biggest problem with the term “endgame” as it definitely seems to imply something that I simply don’t believe in. There are plenty of rabbit holes, but no endgame in sight for me…

I assumed "endgame" was a chess reference, in which case I recommend the Opening Move in Gryphon's "Red Queen to Gryphon Three" album. 

Maybe "Once you've reached Weasel Walter there's nowhere else to go"

perhaps this 1970 album from Germany. not in the archives, so definitely pretty much down the rabbit hole:

Inga and Dagmar, by the way, are Inga Rumpf of the German bands Frumpy and Atlantis and Dagmar Krause of Slapp Happy, Henry Cow and Art Bears.

or perhaps this 1971 album from Australia. also not in the archives:

Well for starters, according to this very site...

But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending.

Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward.

Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward?

I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away.

I live for that day.

I beg to differ. the endgame is the final stage, but not the end itself. in theory it could go on and on.

but I think in conjunction with "down the rabbit hole" "endgame" rather means "something very far out and unknown"

At any rate, down the rabbit hole and endgames, again, very different things so they really shouldn't be paired in this way. But that's splitting hares.

(tee hee, see what I did there)

Friede is the chess expert; I will put her on under my name.

This is Friede. In chess there is the so-called "Fifty moves rule". Article 5.2e of the official FIDE chess rules states: "A player can claim a draw if no capture has been made and no pawn has been moved in the last fifty moves". The term "move" means one player completing a turn followed by the other player completing a turn.

If his claim turns out to be true the referee calls the game a draw.

The idea behind this rule is to prevent a player from needlessly drawing out the game in the hope of some mistake by his opponent.

Article 9.3 of the rules then clarifies the procedure in which this is done: "The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if: a. he writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture".

There are other rules for reaching a draw too. Of special interest is rule 9.2: "The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves): a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move. Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved".

This rule is of special interest because of the famous 1972 world championship match between Boris Spassky and Bobby Fisher. In one of the games of this match one of the players (I don't remember which one) claimed this, and the other agreed. However, the 3rd time the position was reached it was not with the same player having the right of move (which makes a huge difference in chess, especially in the endgame. For more information look up "Zugzwang", a Germanism in the English language). So technically this rule could not be applied. But of course the two players always have the right to call the game a draw if both agree.

As to "checkmates always becoming a reality": This is a very stupid movie device which always annoys me, especially when the player who was just checkmated looks surprised. In reality players realize they can't avoid being checkmated way ahead and give up the game. But of course this is not as dramatic as a sudden checkmate.

I personally have a bunch of stuff I'd consider at the edges of my personal collection but they are certainly not the endgame, I'm continuing to explore.

Yep, I understand end game, I know what a rabbit hole is, I've read Alice in Wonderland, I'm just not sure what he's asking in terms of prog artists and albums.

I'm not sure what this means, but in my endless search for... I fell down the rabbit hole and came home with this: (The cover for Randy Greif: Alice in Wonderland Part 2, 1991)

In 1988 Randy Greif found an old 3 LP audio book of Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland' which he used for the experimental manipulation of vocals for his five part, six hour long renidition. All parts were originally released on five cassettes. All conscientiously reviewed by Dobermensch here on PA. Often explained like this:

A swirling keyboard, subdued but clear, makes way for more damaged spoken vocals in 'Shall I Try the Experiment'. This time they are slowed down, creating a very dark and unsettling atmosphere - almost like having cathedral gargoyles hanging over your shoulders in impending doom. There's so many great lines that take on an unexpected air of menace throughout. One of my favourites is "I'm doubtful about the temperament of your flamingo". Simple. But totally bonkers... (from his review of part four)

Part two opens with The Caucus Race which accidently sound like Can in Wonderland and a stroke of fairytale kraut-motorik genius: 

I think there was a Criminal Minds episode with that name. The one where Spencer Reid's girlfriend gets offed.

Me, too! I went straight for the connection to the game of chess--with the possible meaning that which players would you want at the end to do battle with. I wish the OPer would chime in to further explain his "obvious" introduction.

this is another album dealing with chess:

Once you've reached this, there's really nowhere left to go.

http://%20www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=30102" rel="nofollow - SUPERNAL ENDGAME here on PA!

http://%20www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=30102" rel="nofollow -  http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=30102

richardh wrote: The chess endgame is the most highly technical and skilled part of chess that requires serious practice to master it. For example try and mate someone with just a king,knight and bishop versus king. It can be done but I've seen very good players fail at it. Does that help?

Even grandmasters regularly practice this. There is a certain point where a kind of "W" maneuver has to be made; make a mistake there and you won't be able to do it within 50 moves anymore (counting the moves you already made).

The most difficult endgames are the ones with only rooks and pawns left on both sides.

1. f3       e5

2. g4      Qh4 mate

And my quickest win against a computer:-

1. e4          e5

2. Nf3        Nf6

3. Bc4        Nxe4

4. Nc3        Nxc3

5. dxc3       f6

6. Nh4        g6

7. Nf5         gxf5

8. Qh5+     Ke7

9. Qf7+      Kd6

10. Qd5+   Ke7

11. Bg5      Nc6

12. Qf7+    Kd6

13. 0-0-0+  Nd4

14. Rxd4+  exd4

15. Qd5+   Ke7

16. Re1 mate!

I still have no idea what an endgame prog artist is though. 

totally true indeed

Bravo Paul. That game actually makes me want to get the chess set out. I know its a Petroff defence and that white is playing a gambit line. I've never seen it before and I used to play a lot!

The thread has gone off-topic because none of us are quite sure what the topic is supposed to be about, other than a cryptic reference to a chess endgame. 

dr wu23 wrote: I'm not that far down the rabbit hole on anything in my life , but if I understand the gist then for me two that come to mind are..... the Legendary Pink Dots and Motorpsycho.

Both of these have quite some rabbit holes on their own. Not sure this is what the thread is asking for, but this is the answer that makes most sense for me.  (A friend of mine is one of the worlds biggest LPD fans and has pretty much everything they have ever done. I can tell you it's hard to get deeper into any kind of rabbit hole.)

Thank you Captain Obvious, Sir!

My pleasure. Glad to be of service.

I though falling down the rabbit-hole was the main theme

the OP hasn't come back to check out his own thread, it's all confusing. 

If it becomes a funny thread, it needs to be moved elsewhere. 

so are we talking about our prog journey, with what artists we started and what are listening to these days? Or have I misunderstood yet again? 

You fall down a rabbit hole of prog. What’s at the bottom?

As per my original reply (which, from memory, was the very first reply to the OP), I have never experienced just one rabbit hole, and there are always more rabbit holes for me to explore. So I could list off different albums from the bottom of different holes.

I guess another analogy could be an iceberg. The most obvious and well known artists and albums we listen to are the tip of the iceberg, that can be seen above the waterline. These aren’t particularly obscure (except for the fact that prog is fairly obscure compared to most mainstream fare). But dive below the surface, and you get the less well-known stuff. The further below the waves you get, the more obscure the artist and album are. The base of the iceberg, deep beneath the surface of the ocean is what the OP has called his “endgame” - that which exists at the bottom of the rabbit hole.

Ingmar Bergman's famous movie "The Seventh Seal" was inspired by this picture.

I love this picture. Death playing chess is a common motif in medieval times; see for example this picture which is attributed to Israel van Meckinem:

his name was originally "Albrekht Ymmenhusen", or just "Albrehkt" because family names were uncommon back then. what was added to the name to distinguish between several persons of a given name was either the profession or the location; in this case the location. this is the historic reason why so many family names are also names of professions, like "Smith", "Tailor", "Hunter", "Cook" or "Fisher". later his name was changed to "Albertus Pictor". "pictor" is Latin for "painter", so he was "Albert the painter".

when I studied history and specialized in ancient I had to take courses in Latin and ancient Greek.

funny 

Are you saying we're not allowed to have fun in the regular PA forums? 

No. But if a thread in the music forum gets only off-topicness and a lot of joking, it's going to get moved in the "just for fun" section. 

...and according to the "Is Roger Waters bigger than Jesus" thread, the occasional arse-hole.

witty 

Interesting question.

I broadly believe that Gentle Giant is a kind of prog last frontier... difficult to get into.

For sure you are looking for things below in the rabbit hole...

In this list there is a lot of things you may want to try:

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/floflo79/obscure_and_forgotten_progressive_rock_gems__in_progress_/

If you ask for my personal top list...

1. Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom

2. Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra

3. Needlepoint - Walking up that Valley

Hi,

Sometimes, however, for me, there is no "rabbit hole" and there is no "bottom" anywhere in life or the world, since we know that music has existed for hundreds, and indeed thousands of years! Favorites and Rabbit holes come and go ... and then we all think of Michelangelo!

Nothing new under the stone of an idea!

Hey, what's wrong with Needlepoint? 

As a result: I recently purchased albums of FromUZ (Uzbekistan) and Oaksenham (Armenia): both great bands. And got a few samples from Indonesian and Chinese bands.

And just a couple nights ago, was re-listening to a sample track from Vazimba, one of only two bands listed on PA that are from sub-saharan Africa (besides South Africa, which has a few bands).  And I'm blown away!  Who knew that such amazing sound could come from, of all places, Madagascar??  So now I'm wondering where I can get this album (not on bandcamp where I usually go for most prog purchases these days).