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Give me your top list of endgame prog artists

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Moonchild88 View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 26 2022 at 21:59
Pretty much title. 

Going down the prog rabbit hole how far do you think you have gotten, and what albums do you think are near the bottom of the rabbit hole. 
I hope this makes sense. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 00:57
There are so many ways to answer this, because once you fall down a rabbit hole, there is a good chance you find a warren full of interconnecting and tangential tunnels to explore. Also, of course, it depends entirely on one’s jumping off point - as we all started our prog drops at different times, in different places, and in different ways. What seems deep down a rabbit hole to one person, may be only scratches under the surface for another. (I make this point, because I have seen before the way some on this forum almost belittle others for their discoveries and likes, with derision and condescension.)

I find Bandcamp is great for diving down rabbit holes, because you can follow tags to find things that might not have been found otherwise. Alternatively, from one album, I’ve discovered a Bandcamp rabbit hole by following it back to the Bandcamp page for the record label it was released on. Going for a dive down a rabbit hole of a new record label is almost always greatly rewarding and a lot of fun. Heck, any rabbit hole is fun, if you like falling down and exploring music in this almost random and directionless manner. Some of my most favourite albums and artists have been found via my falling down a Bandcamp rabbit hole…

One rabbit hole I often fall into is that of geography. Ever since the internet has made it so much easier to discover music from around the world, I find I have been listening to less and less music from the UK and US. I have bought hardly any new music from the US for many years, unless it has been from a band I already know and like. That is not to say that I think music from the US is no good, so much as I am absolutely loving finding music from throughout the rest of the world.

I don’t think I exactly have an aim of owning music from every country in the world, but I seem to be heading towards that point, regardless. There is so much great music out there, but because of where it has been made and released, a lot of it simply doesn’t have a chance of being heard as much as that from English speaking Western nations. Many of these artists and albums would not be considered to be deep down a rabbit hole, if they had been made and released somewhere else in the world. Their depth in a rabbit hole is due to their geography, rather than their sound.

To give a recent example, I think this is a pretty awesome album from an Argentine band. Released at the beginning of this month, even as a Name Your Price album (which I think is a shocking shame), it is still unlikely to see anything near the popularity it might have if it had been made and released in, eg, England, or on an, again eg, English record label.


I could go on, but I’m aware of how long this post is already, and also the fact that time is marching on, and I really do need to get my children ready for school.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 06:04
Originally posted by Moonchild88 Moonchild88 wrote:

Pretty much title. 

Going down the prog rabbit hole how far do you think you have gotten, and what albums do you think are near the bottom of the rabbit hole. 
I hope this makes sense. 

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. What is an endgame prog artist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 06:07
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Moonchild88 Moonchild88 wrote:

Pretty much title. 

Going down the prog rabbit hole how far do you think you have gotten, and what albums do you think are near the bottom of the rabbit hole. 
I hope this makes sense. 

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. What is an endgame prog artist?

I didn't understand either. EmbarrassedConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 06:32
I think this is what the OP intended. You listen to Genesis, and that spurs interest in Gabriel's solo stuff or Phil when he played in Brand X, on and on down the rabbit hole. Or recommendations the Zon, bandcamp, or pandora, give... if you enjoyed this you might enjoy this. If I interpreted wrong, sorry.

For me... Marco Minnemann, Mike Keneally, Hiromi, Bubblemath, French TV, Helmet of Gnats, and The Aristocrats come to mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 06:55
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Moonchild88 Moonchild88 wrote:

Pretty much title. 

Going down the prog rabbit hole how far do you think you have gotten, and what albums do you think are near the bottom of the rabbit hole. 
I hope this makes sense. 

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. What is an endgame prog artist?

I didn't understand either. EmbarrassedConfused
That makes three of us. EmbarrassedConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 08:13
Lucky is he who finds a prog album at the bottom of a rabbit hole. On one classic prog album this is sung, as many listeners know:

Run, rabbit, run
Dig that hole, forget the sun
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down, it's time to dig another one

Quite a few holes to go, I presume. I don't know what to make of "endgame". I think I visit a golf course and see what's in hole 18 Clown.


Edited by someone_else - June 27 2022 at 08:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 08:40
I am incredibly surprised to see so little understanding. While the term “endgame” is not one I would have used, nor understood without context, I assumed the idea of falling down a rabbit hole was fairly universal. Not because I expect everyone to understand English, and especially not because I assume every non-English speaker to understand every English idiom, but simply because of the idea of falling down a rabbit hole (as per Alice in Wonderland) does seem to be usually understood by those I know for whom English is not their native tongue.

I assume endgame simply to mean what is found at the bottom of whatever rabbit hole one has fallen down. I could list many, but as per my previous post, it would depend entirely on which rabbit hole I were describing, as there have been many, most of which have taken me to completely different destinations.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 09:07
I have no friggin idea what this thead is. You need to explain it better.

I agree with Nick though about geography.

I have discovered so many talented musicians by just scouring the archives of RYM and looking for artists from lesser known parts of the world.

The West pretty much monopolizes the music industry in many ways but if you actually look deeper in various far flung nations of the world, you will find bands equal or even better than the more famous ones that everybody raves about. In some cases the famous bands simply stole ideas from other bands from poorer nations.

I'll have to check out that Argentine band.


Edited by siLLy puPPy - June 27 2022 at 09:08

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 09:13
The trouble is I don't believe there is a bottom to the rabbit hole. Every new discovery leads me to other artists and bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 09:46
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The trouble is I don't believe there is a bottom to the rabbit hole. Every new discovery leads me to other artists and bands.

This is pretty much why, although this is now the third post I’ve made in this thread, I’ve not named any artist/band/album. For any one rabbit hole I do find the bottom of, there are hundreds of others out there to explore. And we all know how rabbits multiply, so the number of rabbit holes is really infinite…

That is my biggest problem with the term “endgame” as it definitely seems to imply something that I simply don’t believe in. There are plenty of rabbit holes, but no endgame in sight for me…

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 10:23
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Lucky is he who finds a prog album at the bottom of a rabbit hole. On one classic prog album this is sung, as many listeners know:

Run, rabbit, run
Dig that hole, forget the sun
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down, it's time to dig another one

Quite a few holes to go, I presume. I don't know what to make of "endgame". I think I visit a golf course and see what's in hole 18 Clown.
I assumed "endgame" was a chess reference, in which case I recommend the Opening Move in Gryphon's "Red Queen to Gryphon Three" album. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:31
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The trouble is I don't believe there is a bottom to the rabbit hole. Every new discovery leads me to other artists and bands.

This is pretty much why, although this is now the third post I’ve made in this thread, I’ve not named any artist/band/album. For any one rabbit hole I do find the bottom of, there are hundreds of others out there to explore. And we all know how rabbits multiply, so the number of rabbit holes is really infinite…

That is my biggest problem with the term “endgame” as it definitely seems to imply something that I simply don’t believe in. There are plenty of rabbit holes, but no endgame in sight for me…


Maybe "Once you've reached Weasel Walter there's nowhere else to go"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:32
perhaps this 1970 album from Germany. not in the archives, so definitely pretty much down the rabbit hole:


Inga and Dagmar, by the way, are Inga Rumpf of the German bands Frumpy and Atlantis and Dagmar Krause of Slapp Happy, Henry Cow and Art Bears.

or perhaps this 1971 album from Australia. also not in the archives:




Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 11:36


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:41
Well for starters, according to this very site...


But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending.
Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward.

Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward?

I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away.
I live for that day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:44
I guess the endgame prog artists are the ones who died. The end.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:47
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Well for starters, according to this very site...


But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending.
Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward.

Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward?

I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away.
I live for that day.

I beg to differ. the endgame is the final stage, but not the end itself. in theory it could go on and on.

but I think in conjunction with "down the rabbit hole" "endgame" rather means "something very far out and unknown"


Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 11:48


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 11:54
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Well for starters, according to this very site...


But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending.
Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward.

Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward?

I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away.
I live for that day.

I beg to differ. the endgame is the final stage, but not the end itself. in theory it could go on and on.

but I think in conjunction with "down the rabbit hole" "endgame" rather means "something very far out and unknown"
Fair enough, but I take the word final to mean 'coming to an obvious conclusion'. Even in chess I (and I'm no expert) doesn't Checkmate always become a reality? Or are there draws in chess?
At any rate, down the rabbit hole and endgames, again, very different things so they really shouldn't be paired in this way. But that's splitting hares.
(tee hee, see what I did there)


Edited by JD - June 27 2022 at 11:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moonchild88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 12:08
This is correct. Like you probably wouldn't recommend somebody listen to Sedmina or Gilgamesh as their introduction to prog, you start with Yes, move on to Camel, then King Crimson, and so on. So how far down this path of the weird and obscure do you think YOU personally have gone, and what are those albums. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2022 at 12:19
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Well for starters, according to this very site...


But the very question itself is invalid. An Endgame, by definition, is an ending.
Progressive, by definition, is a continuous journey forward.

Hence the paradox, can you get to the end of something that is always moving forward?

I say nope. Someone is going to come along at some point and blow us all away.
I live for that day.

I beg to differ. the endgame is the final stage, but not the end itself. in theory it could go on and on.

but I think in conjunction with "down the rabbit hole" "endgame" rather means "something very far out and unknown"
Fair enough, but I take the word final to mean 'coming to  a conclusion'. Even in chess I (and I'm no expert) doesn't Checkmate always become a reality? Or are there draws in chess?
At any rate, down the rabbit hole and endgames, again, very different things so they really shopuldn't be paired in this way. But that's splitting hares.
(tee hee, see what I did there)

Friede is the chess expert; I will put her on under my name.

This is Friede. In chess there is the so-called "Fifty moves rule". Article 5.2e of the official FIDE chess rules states: "A player can claim a draw if no capture has been made and no pawn has been moved in the last fifty moves". The term "move" means one player completing a turn followed by the other player completing a turn.

If his claim turns out to be true the referee calls the game a draw.

The idea behind this rule is to prevent a player from needlessly drawing out the game in the hope of some mistake by his opponent.

Article 9.3 of the rules then clarifies the procedure in which this is done: "The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if: a. he writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture".

There are other rules for reaching a draw too. Of special interest is rule 9.2: "The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves): a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move. Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved".

This rule is of special interest because of the famous 1972 world championship match between Boris Spassky and Bobby Fisher. In one of the games of this match one of the players (I don't remember which one) claimed this, and the other agreed. However, the 3rd time the position was reached it was not with the same player having the right of move (which makes a huge difference in chess, especially in the endgame. For more information look up "Zugzwang", a Germanism in the English language). So technically this rule could not be applied. But of course the two players always have the right to call the game a draw if both agree.

As to "checkmates always becoming a reality": This is a very stupid movie device which always annoys me, especially when the player who was just checkmated looks surprised. In reality players realize they can't avoid being checkmated way ahead and give up the game. But of course this is not as dramatic as a sudden checkmate.


Edited by BaldJean - June 27 2022 at 12:45


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