Anyone a fan of rap
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Topic: Anyone a fan of rap
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Subject: Anyone a fan of rap
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:55
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Personally I have little respect for it because of its lack of musicality and creativity; I see it as moving music away from an art form and transforming it into a sort of vehicle for comercial sucess, and I also believe it promotes a negative message. However as a form of singing I am greatly intrigued and believe it needs to be explored further in other styles, Pain of Salvation have used it to great sucess. I express a great deal of emotion and is rather unique.
I must admit to being recently impressed by one rapper, Kanye West. He creates some very interesting beats and backs them up with his great rapping.
EDIT: Due to a spelling error I was complimenting Kanye's ability to rape women instead of his singing, now corrected. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Replies:
Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 15:58
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I have some hope in the genre itself but I don't think any of the rap I've heard yet is substantial. Most rap I've heard is composed of 3-5 notes repeated over and over again. I think we need more musical rap (a thing I've personally never heard. If you know some musical rap, just tell me.) We also need lyrics other than : f**k, bitches, ass IMO someting interesting could come out from rap someday.  -------------   RIP in bossa nova heaven. |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:00
No !
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:00
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I like the hardcore,old school kind of stuff...like NWA. And I LOVE Public Enemy.  -------------  |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:07
Kanye West actually recently released a live album where he's backed by an orchestra. It's not developed as fully as it could be but it's a start. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Bern wrote:Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 16:12
I've not heard that Kanye West but the rap industry needs more people like him.  ------------- RIP in bossa nova heaven. |
Posted By: Hector Gilbert
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 17:09
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I like most of the rap music that I've bothered to pursue (I have about thirty albums in the style). It's just a nice change every once in a while from rock music to hear something with more of a focus on vocal clarity. It's also very rhythm-oriented, which is a feature that makes it stylistically different from most prog rock. So I guess if prog rock to you represents something of an ideal state for all other music to live up to, you're never going to get into it. But if you want a change from your usual listening, there it is. To those who are curious, Public Enemy's landmark album It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back and A Tribe Called Quest's The Low End Theory would be among the best albums to start with. It Takes A Nation... is very sample-heavy, but in 1988 that was the point - it was much easier/cheaper back then to take a riff here, a drum sound there and cobble it together into an entirely different context. The unrelenting sociopolitical commentaries would also be relatively palatable to those who are particularly tired of the clichés of chart rap. The Low End Theory mainly served to outline the social climate of 90s America, with a particular emphasis on the music business and the group's frustration with it. Stylistically the album showed heavy jazz influences (albeit put in the context of simple grooves) and sounds a lot less rigid then most rap music even today. |
Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 17:26
If only George Bush could stop not caring about people like him...
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Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 18:56
You obviosly are not familiar with French Hip Hop. Manau, for instance, is one of the freshest aproaches to music I've heard, with their album "Panique Celtique". And then there is MC Sollar... ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:01
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I hate gangsta' rap etc, but some regular rap songs are very good, IMO. Also, I think some alternative/experimental rap is cool, though it isn't something I would buy. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! http://www.last.fm/music/Exerior" rel="nofollow - EXERIOR Experimental tech/death/progmetal from Norway! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:03
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I like a bit of Eminem and de La Soul.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 19:27
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I do think there are hip hop artists that do something different and creative. de la Soul was classic... I also enjoy some Snoop Dog, Busta Rhymes, and Outkast.
------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 00:38
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Hehehe. You know, "rapper" has two p's; the word with one p means one who rapes. Which is ironic considering most rap lyrics :-)
I do not like Rap because there's little to no melody. The song Hey Ya by Outkast makes me want to break something. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 00:43
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I have a great hope in Rap........I hope that people will soon get bored and vanishes as a nightmare. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 01:00
I couldn't agree more Unfortunately I had this thought about twenty years ago, and it still hasn't happened. There have been some sporadic moments of quality, but of course they weren't profitable enough. I remember a movement in the '90s called street Jazz. They had actual music playing, and intelligent lyrics. No wonder it didn't catch on. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 03:03
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I heard some rhythmically and lyrically impressive rap, but the only names I can remember are MC Solaar, The Metrics (they rapped on one of the albums by Steve Coleman) and Roots Manuva (talk about crazy lyrics, I'm yet to hear anything as out there in prog). Actually, I'd like to hear more...
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Posted By: Serguilloche
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 11:33
 isn't the term 'rapist'?------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Serguilloche/?chartstyle=Bubbles"> 
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 17:45
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Kanye West is safe, dumbed-down mainstream crap with a veneer of
sophistication that's as fake as Bruce Springsteen's "working man"
image. There is so much more inetersting stuff going on in the
underground, and pleanty of rappers who are much, much better than he
is. Jean Grae. No one can touch her - that's the first thing you need to know. Quasimoto/Madlib/Yeterday's New Quintet, Dr Octagon/Kool Keith, MF Doom, Aesop Rock, RJD2, Innerstance Beatbox, DJ Shadow and many more are far more creative and progressive than the safe, cross-overy blandness of Kanye. -------------  
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Posted By: kenmeyerjr
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:07
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Gee, if the genre has been around 20 years and has not disappeared, you think that might give you a clue that it is a valid genre? I have to admit, the close mindedness of many of the people here give me pause to associate myself with prog.
Hector, great choices. ------------- If you like art of musicians, check my site (the music section) and tell me what you think! http://www.kenmeyerjr.com |
Posted By: kenmeyerjr
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:08
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Oh, and Tea, there is nothing fake about Springsteen's working man image...obviously, he is not living on welfare, but I think he has earned both is salary and his status. And, considering how much he donates of both is money and time to things like food banks and such, I think the time has come for people to stop dumping on him just because he is successful. ------------- If you like art of musicians, check my site (the music section) and tell me what you think! http://www.kenmeyerjr.com |
Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:31
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I loved Rage against the machine when i was younger and first got intrested in music but they played Metal/rap, and yes some eminem songs was very good i think, havent any albums by him but i liked some songs yes i did. but no im never was a big fan and now days i dont lisen to any rap. But my sister lisen to much rap and yes some of it is preety good i have to say some very bad. ------------- 
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:49
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I also really like Dr. Dre's album The Chronic,great tunes and it is very well produced.
Has anyone here ever heard of a hip-hop band called The Roots?They focus on live instrumentation and play traditional instruments.Their albums Things Fall Apart and Phrenology are incredible. ------------- |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 22:07
Yes we're very close minded:
I guess we're anything but close minded, and sorry If I'm not scared because you refuse to associalte with Prog Rock, because you always say the same thing and you're always back. Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 22:11
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I like the old stuff, when rap was either fun, party music or political. I even like old Ice Cube and Dr. Dre because they had very good storytelling and creative melody lines. Nowadays, rap is a pathetic self-parody. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 04:23
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Some people refuse rappers the status of real musicians on the grounds that they neither play an instrument, nor have musical knowledge.
Funnily enough though, when the same people are confronted with basic facts that some very high-profile musicians think otherwise (and even go as far as to co-operate with the rappers they consider creative), these people are quick to dismiss the aforementioned musicians' knowledge, experience and judgement, and claim their own (fragmentary and limited) knowledge as equal, or even superior, to that of these musicians. A good (if maybe a bit extreme) example of a similar situation would be that 'Simpsons' episode, in which Homer vehemently argues astrophysics with Stephen Hawking. Ridiculous, really.
Can you spell 'hypocrite'?
We're all entitled our likes and dislikes - but ultimately there are people more qualified to judge art than your everyday person is. And following up on this - to the rap haters here: Steve Coleman, Matthew Shipp and Anthony Braxton say you don't know sh*t. And I'm sure they're not the only accomplished artists to say that.
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 08:38
I don't dump on him because he is succesful, I dump on him because A) he sucks, B) his style is an image just as much a Mötley Crüe's eyeliner, scarves and teased hair were, C) he sucks and D) he's part of the "honesty and feeling are the only things that matter in art" movement that has been dragging music down for so many years. Also, because he sucks. -------------
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Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 08:56
Rap music was actually the first genre that spoke to me on some level (mind you, I was 12!  ).
Nevertheless, I think it's a valid genre, and I can still listen to
some of the better acts (A Tribe Called Quest, The Roots, Pharcyde,
Outkast, Dälek, early Don Johnson Big Band etc.) when the feeling
strikes me. 50 Cent and MTV rap in general, is absolutely terrible, though. ------------- 
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 09:06
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Jimbo has it right about "Fiddy" and MTV rap. I can understand that people sl*g off the genre if that's all they've heard. Yes, I forgot The Pharcyde on my list. Their debut is a stone-cold classic of the genre, and has a stylistic breadth that you don't really notice at first. Ace stuff. -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 09:12
Are you implying something
 ?And you're so right about that "honesty and feeling" thing
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 11:42
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 13:48
So did Homer Simpson
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 16:19
A) The voice is an instrument. B) Melody is not the be-all and end-all of music. If it were, the mostly identical - and, mind you, very easy to write - melodies of most Blues (and much Rock) would disqualify it from any serious discussion. C) Timing is a much more rare and difficult to achieve commodity than the ability to play scales. D) Whether you play an instrument or not isn't an indicator of the relative complexity of what you are doing. Playing a twelve bar Blues or regular Pop/Rock bass line is much, much easier than being a truly good rapper. E) Sometimes the groove is the thing (or "thang"). The difference between a Minneapolis groove, a Washington DC Go-Go groove and Clyde Stubblefield (that's James Brown's drummer - the most sampled man in the world) groove is subtle, and extremely difficult to differentiate between when playing. I have a friend who spent years learning how to drum, spent hours practicing, and even attended PIT in Los Angeles. He could probably play with most of the Prog bands I've heard, except for the very upper echelon of complexity - the guy is mad skilled. But he quit playing when he realised that he could never make it into Prince's band - he could not accurately find the groove. F) All art that is unique and/or difficult to emulate is valid. If anyone can do it, it's pointless. Not just anyone can rap on the level of Eminem - hell, few untrained people could rap like 50 Cent, and he sucks. -------------
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 16:35
| I hate rap- always have. What I want from music is superlative musicianship or superlative vocals- preferably both. Rap, at least in my experience has neither. Too much of it is sampled from old funk records from the 60s/70s and I do not relate to the ranting vocals that doesn't equate to anything I'd call singing. Controversial maybe, but I've had that opinion for years and have heard nothing to make me change my mind. It is the genre alongside dance music that I loathe above all else. It just doesn't agree with me at all... |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 16:55
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^Oh, yeah. Real controversial. You and 50 million other people feel this way. It's absolutely fine not to like it (especially if you've only been exposed to the mainstream aspects of it), but to think that it's easier to do well than, say, play in a regular Pop/Rock band trying to sound like U2 is just deluded. Also, "Dance" is a pretty sweeping statement, especially if you include IDM. The difference bwteen a House act and someone like Squarepusher (or even less heavily "musical" acts like Orbital or The Propellerheads) is as great as between Backstreet Boys and Genesis circa 1976. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 22:07
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 22:57
Sorry, but your example is very poor:
Just to end, i rather have enough confidence and trust in my beliefs that base my absolutely unique taste in what another person say. Iván-------------
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 23:06
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Oh, lord... Yeah, there's a rapper on every street corner in the USA, and there's a flamenco guitarist on every block in Madrid and a fiddler on every roof in Krakow. Are you for real? It's at least as hard to find a good rapper as it is to find a good Rock band. And rapping is not "to speak fast" - if it were, then you could do it now, and I promise you that even if you spent a week with a coach practicing, you wouldn't stand at chance at making the cut, and you certainly couldn't come up with the goods in a freestyle rap battle, where you have to improvise your lyrics as you go. I've heard two different aspiring rappers try to do Eminem's The Real Slim Shady, and even though they'd both rehearsed it meticulously, they were so obviously off - even though they knew it all by heart. Groove is hard, ask any professional musician, and they'll agree. Conversely, I heard some kids play Iron Man outside my window last Saturday (don't ask), and they wer godawful, but they got that song down. I like that song a lot, but it is NOT hard to play. Seriously, you are free to feel that in order for you to enjoy music, it needs to have melody. There is nothing at all wrong with that - it's definitely one of my main criteria in most music I listen to - just not all. This is why Blues bores me, it is entirely predictable, because it has very strict conventions and the melodies seem entirely incdental rather than worked out and polished to be just right. Anyways, you're free to feel Rap sucks (just like I freely think that Springsteen and Live suck), but it's silly to think it's any easier than it is to play yer average everyday Pop/Rock. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 04 2006 at 23:22
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 00:06
I'll be sure to check these people out, as I'm not a very big fan of the genre I am very out of touch with the underground or even the mainstream for that matter. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 00:08
I agree especially with points A and C. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 00:31
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Which BTW is a stupis stereotype because you will find more ballalaika players than fiddlers). Well, gee, why do you think I chose it as a counter to YOUR stupid stereotype? Well, record industry manages very well to find 10 or 20 rappers per week. And at least as many new Rock bands or any other kind of act they're looking for. WHat is your point, exactly? Grove without melody and well developed harmonies means nothing at all.
And some would say melody and harmonies without groove mean nothing at all. The point is still not about your presonal preference, but whether or not this is something anyone can do, and you have no case for that, I fear. Well I listen at least 20 new
reggaeton artists (Variation inspired in reggae and rap) and all suck,
but they can play as bnad as any average rapper.
And what on EARTH does that have to do with how easy it is to play Iron Man, or many other highly respected Rock tunes? And you don't believe Rap is
predictable?????? Endless repetition of one or two chords with a guy
SPEAKING FAST ad nauseam?? I find that much more predictable.
I don't know what it is you've heard, but a good rap pushes, pulles and changes phrasing, emphasis and rhyme scheme throughout. I defy you to rap along to something as mainstream as The Real Slim Shady (as we've mentioned it before, and you should eb able to find it easily) even with a lyric sheet in front of and three runthroughs. Anyways, you're free to feel Rap sucks (just like I freely think that Springsteen and Live suck), but it's silly to think it's any easier than it is to play yer average everyday Pop/Rock. If there are thousands of rappers
that manage to release an album and sell a lot, and only a bunch of
Rock bands that achieve the same success, I must assume that's easier. What do you base this on? Which thousands of rappers? Against which few bands? Even if you were to find more rappers than Rock bands in the charts at any one time, that only tells you the genre is more popular. Here is the UK singles chart for this week: 1 Sandi Thom I Wish I Was A Punk Rocker 2 Gnarls Barkley Crazy 3 Keane Is It Any Wonder 4 Infernal From Paris To Berlin 5 Pink Who Knew 6 Ronan Keating & Kate Rusby All Over Again 7 Oakenfold Ft Brittany Murphy Faster Kill Pussycat 8 Nelly Furtado Maneater 9 LL Cool J Ft Jennifer Lopez Control Myself 10 Primal Scream Country Girl That's two Rap tunes, four Pop vocalists, two Rock bands and two Dance tunes, both with non sampled singing. It seems those thusands of rappers haven't had much impact on the chart this week, eh? Maybe it's a June slump, or something. The following ten spots hold only two more rappers, one of which is a guest on an RnB tune, and three proper bands, one singer/songwriter and a classic crooner (the smooth Tony Christie). In the following twenty songs, there are no more than four rappers and eight or so "proper" bands. All interspersed with some novelty tunes, trashy Techno, etc. Oh, and as for complexity, if Primal Scream's Country Girl took more than three minutes to write they're either daft or lazy. It's not even a song - it's like a sketch for a basic idea for a song. I'd much rather hear someone with skill perform something he does well than listen to that dross. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:04
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Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:25
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Ivan, you say that it's easy to just be a rapper, and that tons of them are being churned out at a ridiculous rate. Is this not also true of generic mainstream rock bands? As even Teaflax has admitted during the course of this discussion, most rap is admittedly trash. Nobody here is trying to convince you that 50 Cent and the other rap you would hear on the radio is any form of artistic genius, all we're saying is that you need to look beyond the surface. The way you're looking at rap is the equivalent to if somebody took the Arctic Monkeys, The Strokes, The Libertines and whichever other generic rock acts are popular right now and declared on the basis of those that "rock music has no validity as an art form". It's true that there are tons of generic gansta-rap artists polluting the music industry, and it's true that now pretty much any stupid kid in high school now believes he can become the next generic gangsta-rap artist and fancies himself one, but is this not equally true of rock? Have there not been COUNTLESS awful garage bands formed by people with absolutely nothing to contribute creatively to their form of music? What we're saying is that you need to look further, into the rap artists we don't all hear about. I know that pretty much none of the modern rock bands you appreciate (if any at all) would be known beyond a very small group of serious fans, why should rap be any different? I'm no specialist on the rap scene, but the artists people have already been mentioning are all extremely valid examples of how there's plenty of creative rap buried within the overflowing gangsta atrocity that takes up most of the genre. You could argue that these artists are too rare to really be worthy of using in an argument, but I'd say the proportions are about the same as they would be with rock. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 02:53
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Ivan, I only edited to make it a bit briefer, and maybe to spare you an
embarrasment or two, but I see now that that is certainly pointless. As
for the centrality, I will avoid quoting anything this time, so you
won't feel hard done by. So, you're simultaneously arguing that there's A) loads of awful rap infesting the music biz, and B) but that it's so bad it doesn't reach the charts. Seems the music industry is shooting themselves in the foot, then, putting out all this stuff that doesn't sell. Also, who gives a toss what's in the US charts? They've been a worse quagmire of total crappitude than the UK charts for decades - at least in the UK, something interesting and qualitative (and even lower-p progressive) does rear its head from time to time. And, oh dear, Primal Scream is not a House band, never have been - they incorporated some dance elements on one album ten years ago, or something. Country Girl is a Rawk n Roll tune if ever there was one, as all their releases in the last decade have been. Like The Rolling Stones with a lobotomy (yeah, that bad). It goes back to the same argument I'm making with Iron Man; how easy it is to play basic Rock n Roll, okay? (and more specifially in the case of Country Girl, how incredibly easy it must have been to write). http://www.primalscream.net/www/ - Judge for yourself . That's where your sudden dragging in of Reggaeton is absolutely baffling. I have mentioned several good rappers, earlier in this thread. And you won't try rapping because...? If it's so bloomin' easy - and I'm not even asking you to create anything, just replicate what is already there - it really should be a breeze. Right? Are ye scared, lad? And I have to say that "that is not musically correct" is a hilarious comeback. There are plenty of non-tonal, non-harmonic purely percussive forms of music from Japanese taiko drumming to the drums of Burundi (the latter is such a cultural force in Burundi they have a drum on their flag) and absolutely tons where rhythm is the major element. Any program from the USA or sitcom? Let me see...I watch Lost, Arrested Development (RIP), Scrubs, The Office, Rome, Law & Order, Law & Order: CI, CSI, Battlestar Galactica and Thief. There might have been some Rap in the background of the last one, but not a note of it in any of the others. Care to try again, Mr Generalize Without Proof? My point is that you're tilting at the wrong windmill. Complacency and narrow-mindedness are the two major threats music faces, not whether someone sings or not, or if the emphasis is on rhythm over melody. Yes, I too prefer Yes and Genesis to...well any rapper, even the bestest ones in the whole world - but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the considerable accomplishments of someone like Jean Grae who does five different rap styles as a one-woman possee in http://www.virgin.net/music/musicvideos/theherbaliser_generals.html - The Herbaliser's single Generals . (Note that the styles are pastiche, but all rhythmically more intricate than a Wakeman Moog solo - the second one, "Cheech Marina", is my favorite) You may not like it, but you're just being silly if you cannot acknowledge that a great measure of skill has gone into devising, creating and performing in five distinct styles and voices in one song. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 12:18
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 16:07
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Just this before I give up; do you honestly believe that an album or single that doesn't make it into the charts could possibly sell "a couple of million" copies, or are you exaggerating wildly for effect? In the US, you need sales of a half a milion to reach gold record status, in the UK 300 000 is platinum. But I guess you think that gold and platinum record awards are being handed out left and right to artists who never make it into the charts. And since you obviously don't read what I actually write (if you did, you would know that Jean Grae and Cheech Marina are one and the same), I'll just drop it, except to repeat this; biggest threat to music: complacency and narrow-mindedness. You've got at least one of those in spades. -------------
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 16:15
for Dr Octagon, MF Doom and above all, the great DJ Shadow! I haven't heard the others, but I will check them out when I get a chance. hip-hop has just as much potential to be progressive as rock does IMO, it's just a sad fact that most of it and its culture do not want to progress. May I also recommend: Dalek and Beam, for those who doubt. ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 19:10
I'm sensing some hostility here...
 ...I do think "wrap" sucks, at least the stuff that I've heard. Then again, I haven't really sought it out either (based on the aforementioned sucky exposure), so it's entirely possible that there's better material out there & I haven't tripped over it yet...Have heard some Kanye W though (see my prior comment of two sentences ago)...Anyone who "samples" another's work w/o permission & releases it as part of their own "new" release is no friend of mine...
...Unfortunately, although this applies to anyone, the wrap & hip hop establishments seem to have chosen this path far too often... |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 20:23
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It's true that a lot of rap, particularly in the mainstream, and
particularly after the success of Puff Daddy and The Fugees (the Kanye
West of its time; critically acclaimed, but actually quite vapid), use samples
as a way of just basically doing a cover version with the verse removed
and (often very bad) rapping stuck in there. This is just pointless. But using samples to create something that is actually new, like for instance Coldcut or Lionrock do, is perfectly valid. Collage is a valid form of visual art, so why shouldn't that be the case for music? The problem comes when you use a sample and do not add anything significant to it - then you are riding on the coattails of the sampled artist, and that's reprehensible. But it's silly to deride sampling as a tool simply because it's often misused. Also, another refutation of one Ivan's weird statements. Here's the track list for the Scrubs soundtrack CD:
Well, what do you know? Not a rapper in sight. All good, solid band or singer/songwriter action, and I recall no Rap ever used in the series, and I think I've seen every episode bar two, and although my memory isn't the very best in the world I think I'd recall if it was a running theme. Hey, they even had The Technicolor Spree as guests in one episode, and they're borderline Prog, and Francis Dunnery used to be in It Bites. Hm, funny old world, isn't it? -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 05 2006 at 22:27
BTW: I heard and/or seen Rap performances in Scrubs at leat 3 or 4 times, don't ask me for names because I don't know or care about, neither I know the reason why they didn't oincluded this s tracks in a CD, maybe their target market is not Rap listeners. -------------
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 00:00
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Big on bluster, thin on facts - and I'm beginning to sense a modus
operandi here. You don't take in information and you don't offer
information. I have to ask; how old are you, Ivan? Find me an act - Rap or not - that has sold gold in the US in the last few years without hitting at least the Top 40. Some quick googling shows that a likely figure to creep into the US Top 40 is about 20-25 000 copies sold/week. So, in order to be certain to stay out of the top forty even on a slow week, you need to sell below 15 000 at all times. To make a gold record at that rate takes 66 weeks. More than one year and three months. It takes twice that to make platinum. This is not taking into account that few records sell steadily and our set peak would be the high mark of what is usually a curve with quite a sharp dropoff after the first few weeks. So, I'm guessing that a gold selelr that never hit the charts would be quite an anomaly. Or is there a mythical subset of Rap - or any other music - that sells in steady, fairly small streams for more than a year without ever getting much exposure? A dark underbely of music that no one knows about but that's making the record companies millions of dollars? I find it unlikely, and it certainly isn't how record companies are making money off of Rap music, which seems to be your rather baffling point. I know what you'll say now; it costs nothing to make a Rap album. That's neither here nor there. The production costs are - to the label, if not the artist - a very minor part of costs involved. PR, manufacturing and distribution probably account for 90% of the cost. The way record companies operate is they sign twenty acts, toss them out there, see what sticks and dump the nineteen that don't sell. They don't support acts that don't chart for very long - they used to, but that was decades ago. Also, as far as Scrubs goes, it's certainly not an anomaly. Pretty much every big sitcom from the last ten years is entirely Rap free; Everybody Loves Raymond, Frasier, Seinfeld, Friends, The King of Queens, Two and a Half Men, The World According to Jim, Spin City, Ellen, Dharma and Greg, Will & Grace, The Office, My Name is Earl, etc. Care to try again? By the way, here's http://scrubs.mopnt.com/music/ - a complete listing of the music in Scrubs , knock yourself out. I saw nothing Raplike in Season 5, and I couldn't be bothered to go through more - it's your prerogative to find the facts to support your statement. Suffice it to say that if you do find one or two, they're in quite a minority position. Prog has most certainly gotten a bad rap (heh) throughout the years, that's indubitable. The fact that it doesn't have the slightest bearing on what it is we're arguing seems to not deter you, however. Let's review: You claim thousands of rappers release albums and sell a lot, and very few rock bands do. Evidently, you only allow the US charts to prove this, although that was never made clear until you were proven wrong. Currently on the Billboard chart's top ten there are four rap-related songs, two of which have rappers only guesting on "actual" songs. There are 17 in the following forty, four of which are similar guest appearances. I admit, that is quite a lot, but not the flood you claim. Its less than half, and only 30% if you count only "pure" Rap, rather than guest appearances. As for your indignation about me mentioning non-sitcom shows (pointless, mind you, what with the list above), this is your quote on how much Rap there is on TV: "Just check any TV program from USA by cable, any sitcom, any musical program, even MTV". I listed "any TV program from the US". But I'll give you one of the things from the quote above (don't let it go to your head); there is one hell of a lot of bad Rap on MTV. And that's why there's MTV2, which plays stuff like Muse, Radiohead and PRR. Oh, and for the record, The Office is a sitcom. Facts, Ivan. Ain't they a bitch? -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 01:40
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Are you scaping to the peripheric data?
Why did you avoid the central point.
BTW: Rap artists are cheaper than Rock bands, they release one album, the label squeez them and they leave them to find a new rapper, at the end, you can find a lot of them anywhere.
BTW 2: We don't have MTV 2 here, so I can't give an opinion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 02:31
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SCRUBS doesn't use Rap tracks??
Episode 4.01 - "My Old Friend's New Friend"
Scene: J.D. imagines his clock singing (the actual song later repeated as Turk dances around the car). "Rapper's Delight" by Sugar Hill Gang. Album: various Episode 4.05 - "Scene: Elliot and Molly school Turk on rap. Episode 4.08 - "My Last Chance" Scene: J.D. considers how beer can cause death (background music).
"Bust A Move" by Young MC. Album: 'Stone Cold Rhymin'' And only checlked partially the fourth season.
The funny thing is that I don't know as many rap titles as you probably know and could find four in 3 minutes.
Facts, Teaflax Ain't they a bitch?
 BTW: This thread has already bored me, you can stay with all the rap you want, honestly there's a lot more of better music to worry about and a lot of work to be done.
Iván
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 03:24
You have to blame yourself for that bit. Mainstream Hip Hop is as awful as mainstream rock. A fantastic, overlooked album from a couple of years ago is: Deep Puddle Dynamics: The Taste of rain...Why Kneel. (contains a multipart suite!) With nine members, all losely connected to the Anticon collective. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 06:09
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And thou avoidest the central point. Let's see if you can actually find
it, Sir "What? It's not that I can't argue the case, I'm just boooored
with it". Hint, it is a question involving time spent on planet Earth.
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 07:19
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"It's true that a lot of rap, particularly in the mainstream, and particularly after the success of Puff Daddy and The Fugees (the Kanye West of its time; critically acclaimed, but actually quite vapid), use samples as a way of just basically doing a cover version with the verse removed and (often very bad) rapping stuck in there. This is just pointless. But using samples to create something that is actually new, like for instance Coldcut or Lionrock do, is perfectly valid. Collage is a valid form of visual art, so why shouldn't that be the case for music? The problem comes when you use a sample and do not add anything significant to it - then you are riding on the coattails of the sampled artist, and that's reprehensible. But it's silly to deride sampling as a tool simply because it's often misused." Yes, but the key to the above is "add anything significant"...I wasn't deriding the sampling process or audio collages, but addressing the ownership & permission angle. If you're using whole musical passages written & owned by other artists, even if you're adding a couple of new elements or lyrics, and not giving credit or getting prior permission to do this it's stealing...Just ask George Harrison (if you could), whose use of another's melody wasn't nearly as blatant as what I'm referring to...
Riding other's coattails is a well-established practice in music, so using your same argument re: sampling & collages, why shouldn't that be considered OK as well? It's all a matter of degree really, and a judgement call as to whether the artist has "added anything significant"...
Not familiar with Coldcut (sounds like a sandwich ingredient), they may be doing something legit, I don't know...And why not deride methods that're often being misused? Maybe that'll put more of a spotlight on the issue & get some of these questionable acts to stop doing it!
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 08:40
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^You might as well complain about guitars because some people use them
to play tunes that are ripped off. That's all I'm saying. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 12:09
Bravo Treaflax, again as you always do when you are proved wrong you change the subject.During three posts you been rubbing on my face the stupid fact that that in a sitcom as Scrubs there was no Rap (You said Raples) but inmediately when I prove you're wrong or lying (Not in your mind so I can't guess) you change the subject, but that is not new in you.
You dare to call me close minded but you kept talking crap about Kansas:
Teaflax wrote:
So, I criticize a non Prog genre in a Prog site but you kept insulting a band most of us love, but because there was no answer so you insisted.
Teaflax wrote:
Then I proved you that Kansas made great stuff, but you weren't ready to loose so you changed your argument
Teaflax wrote:
In other words they are good, have great songs, they have pure Prog elements but still crap
Then I proved you thatany Symphonic band from any part of the world has differences with British Symphoonic and you VANISHED
That's your tactic, we all know it,now you change subject and avoid themes when you're proved wrong, keep on going.
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 12:35
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Wow. You perform the mother of all irrelevant subject changes in order
to accuse me of changing the subject (which I haven't done even once on
this thread; it's always been about your inability to deal with various
aspects of reality). That's either a meta statement - in which case,
bravo - or breathtakingly hypocritical. You'll note - if you go back and read really carefully this time - that I was smart enough to set up a caveat in the Scrubs section; that it would be in an absolute minority even if you did find some. This was also the case, not least since the music refences you mentioned are not even full featured songs - of which almost every episode of Scrubs contains one, and which would be the only musical content really worth discussing, because it is an editorial choice (as in: "we approve of this music") rather than just an aspect of storytelling. They are instead short snippets used for effect in flashbacks or fantasy sequences. So, your argument about the all-pervasive nature of Rap is not in any way vindicated, nor am I proven wrong. Sorry. Also, you never proved anything about Kansas (in fact, I don't remember you proving even one of your wild statements in anyone's mind but your own). Well, okay, you did prove that they had some songs with less vocals, thus being less terrible by default. It really isn't all that narrow-minded to reject something for having major aspects that are too simplistic, mainstream and commercial, I think you'd have to agree. But, you know, I really shouldn't argue AOR/Soft Rock or the artistic bankruptcy of most Rock with someone who seriously likes Meat Loaf. That's just too mean, even for me. But, hey, if that's your thing, no wonder you like Kansas. So, tell me again how someone sells millions without charting, and how all sitcoms are full of Rap. Enlighten me as to why it is not "musically correct" to make music that you don't like? Explain also why you can make such cocksure judgements on music when you seem to know awfully little about how it is actually composed and performed? You did claim not to be psychic, after all. Either way, you crack me up, Iván. Don't take it so bloody seriously, but do try to think things through before you blurt them out, and - please - try to accept when you are proven wrong (and before you get all huffy, you cannot prove me wrong on the almighty suckitude of Kansas, nor can I prove you wrong about the suckiness of Rap - these are matters of taste - let's try to stick to facts, shall we?). -------------
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 13:03
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Last ditch effort to save this thread from total Hellfire and Damnation (i.e. closure at the hands of the admins): Does anyone have suggestions for good (maybe even progressive?) hip-hop artists? I'll toss out the fact that our well-respected Avant/RIO homeboy MIKE PATTON recently did an album with the X-ecutioners... ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 13:29
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Well, I did list some of that above, but do definitely start with
Endtroducing... by DJ Shadow. Lots of obscure Prog Rock samples hidden
deep in there. Anything off of Coldcut's own label Ninja Tune is a pretty safe bet (especially Jaga Jazzist a Norwegian Jazz/Electronica/Prog mix that's really mind-blowing). Also, most everything on Mo' Wax is pretty adventurous and lower-p progressive. If you're looking for more Electronica-based stuff that has a progressive vibe, I'd recommend Squarepusher and Amon Tobin as starting points. If you look into Madlib/Quasimoto/Yesterday's New Quintet, be forwarned that his stuff is all over the place, from fairly regular Hip Hop via Reggae to out-and-out Jazz. Respected Rap artists in the underground scene are Aesop Rock, MF Doom/Dr Octagon Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Jurassic 5, Prefuse 73, Quannum and Latyrx, but I'm really no expert on that and have only a few such releases. For historical grounding, some old school acts that moved away from just talking ryhtmically over a drum machine; A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Gang Starr, Eric B and Rakim, Black Sheep and The Pharcyde. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 13:41
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 13:51
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You don't even read what I write, Iván. That is very sad (not to
mention rude), as I write a lot and put effort into it, so I'm going to
stop now. Meatlof... That really was the final nail in your credibility coffin. You have proven me wrong on absolutely nothing (except for some minor nitpicking, which is just childish), and have been proven wrong on the overarching and salient facts time and time again. As for the truly central question that you keep avoiding; If you are out of your teens, I am genuinely sorry to hear that. If not, then I hope that time will bring you wisdom. Peace, Your friend in Prog, John. -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 14:12
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Just check his profile Tea...it ain't hard!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 15:33
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you started with the quotes and songlists from a sitcom that you rubbed repeteadly on my face until you were proved wrong.
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:20
Ah, right. Well, most profiles tend to be not very filled in, so it didn't occur to me. The bleeder's older'n me. *shock, horror* -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:33
But not as old as me.  |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:41
How do you feel being offensive? Is that a pleassure for you? Does you feel better or even more smart than you claim you are?
That's the reason why normally nice people ofth9is forum is being rude with you, because you ask for it.
And BTW: The phrase "Your Friend in Prog" was only a vulgar manipulation of your part (As I already knew). But I won't fall in your game.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:42
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are you children QUITE done yet? jiminy cricket! this has gone on long enough... ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:50
I can't believe I'm doing this but....... ......Ivan, "bleeder" is virtually a term of endearment in UK English, the English that Teafalx has been using. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 16:59
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That guy doesn't half hold a grudge, does he? Good lord... You'd think I'd insulted his mother, or something. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 17:02
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Bleeder: 2 British : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/rotter - ROTTER ; also : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/bloke - BLOKE
I find it offensive, maybe you just don't know the meaning as you didn't knew what redneck or pork burger means?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 17:55
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Wow,I've just read the WHOLE of this thread,every last word (rumblings from another place) and I am at a loss to see why someone would want this thread closed.There have been arguments but it has never boiled over into that scarcely definable territory named "across the line" . I think that an argument about taste is pointless. To Mr Teaflax I would say that once you start your "argument" by dismissing an artist, a band or genre with a casual "it sucks" then you set the tone for the level of discussion. To Ivan I would say "as above" Oh and "bleeder" is NOT offensive where I live,it is, as Snow Dog states,a term of endearment. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 18:12
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 18:25
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Ivan,I would say that you must have a very old dictionary,but no doubt you've cited a 2006 version from the UK. I'm not sure that I concede your point about something having two meanings,because I can assure you that bleeder, whilst slightly patronising in this usage, would not be considered offensive to a native English speaker,nor is it reasonable to expect people to double-check every word for innuendo. A classic example from the UK is the use of the word "bugger". I guarantee if I called you a "loveable old bugger" you'd be extremely offended yet the word has become little more than an affectionate and jocular term of address.This interpretation of the word is 100% consistent acroos the whole country. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 18:44
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 19:05
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Actually, I'm Swedish/Austrian/American, but I can do a pretty good
Scottish brogue and a cartoon version of Irish. I write fairly
transatlantically, although I tend to favor American spellings. But I'm sadly not too surprised that Ivàn reads all sorts of things into my writing that isn't there, especially after my genuinely offered olive branch was seen as a terrible and manipulative move. So I will simply not address him again, since there's no point to it. I'm just sorry for his sake that he takes this entire thing so bleedin' seriously. -------------
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 19:08
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"To Mr Teaflax I would say that once you start your "argument" by dismissing an artist, a band or genre with a casual "it sucks" then you set the tone for the level of discussion."
I believe that I also earlier stated that I thought wrap & hip hop sucked, at least the stuff that I've heard...Conceding that I couldn't possibly have heard everything (no one has...I hope) & that there may be some wonderful acts out there, I'm comfortable with my judgement of that particular material...Wasn't trying to set any particular tone, just stating my honest opinion, others can disagree & I'll still sleep well tonight...
...If given the choice to scour the wrap/hip hop world for listenable tunes vs, say, rock or prog, I believe my choice would be clear as to where I'd concentrate my efforts! |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 19:18
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To state that a band "sucks" is one thing to dismiss a whole genre in such terms is quite obviously asinine. However,differences in taste underpin this whole debate.That said,I dont want to breath new life into what has becaome a moribund thread... |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 19:44
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Well, let me just add this; I think anyone who knows a bit about music
should be able to respect a lot more music than they actually would
want to listen to. There's a lot of music I can tell certainly has merit, but that grates on my ears or is just not interesting. To keep this vaguely on-topic, I offer up the production work of Timbaland, which I find to be incredibly daring sometimes and usually quite groundbreaking, but I wouldn't actively listen to anything he's produced. And for all my defending of Rap as a valid genre, it's not something I listen to particularly often. I used to feel pretty much like Iván does back in the 80's, and even thought I would get in on the act, and make me some sweet cash. Seeing as I was a singer, spoke unaccented English, wrote song lyrics regularly, and had access to several recording studios, spitting out a Rap tune or two shouldn't be that difficult. Well, as it turned out, it was a damned sight more difficult than I had thought - and this was even before increase in rhythmic and structural sophistication of underground Rap which happened during the 90's. I've played the bass in a Blues/Rock combo, sung in Prog and Pop groups, drummed in a Punk band and to this day create music on my keyboard here at home, so I have some sense of what goes into making music, even though I know very little about musical theory. In my experience, rapping well - and do note that I find that most rapping you hear on MTV does not qualify - very difficult indeed. And to freestyle it - that's just breathtaking to see someone do well. I have an acquaintance who is a rapper in the band Hearin' Aid. He's a good enough rapper, but when you realise that a lot of what he does is almost completely improvised, it's almost unfathomable. When you see him do one take, flub a line and then start over, except now with a completely different lyric...that's impressive. Again, it's nothing I would listen to, but you have to respect the craft. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 20:09
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 06 2006 at 22:07
Anyone who knows a bit about music also knows about what they DON'T like, and it's fine to not like a band if you have heard them and know why you can't connect with them. His point is that maybe you could show respect for some hip-hop artists without actually being obligated to listen to them regularly, instead of dismissing them out of hand. I dont want to be choosing sides in this little catfight, but that's how I feel about that subject... ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 07 2006 at 07:41
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^Boy, the political correctness in this latest thread is palpable. So let me put all of you at ease. Here's the greatest possible love for the following musical styles (even though I don't like 'em or listen to 'em, but at least some of its practitioners are probably very skilled): Wrap Hip Hop Traditional Swiss Yodeling Electronic Rumba Music played on Hammond OrganTibetan Folk Music
Music of the Mongolian Steppes
Classical Music performed on zither & washboard
"To state that a band "sucks" is one thing to dismiss a whole genre in such terms is quite obviously asinine"...I'm sure Tony R that you meant this in the best possible way (you forgot the emoticon)
...Actually I never said that all of it sucked, just the (very limited) material that I've been exposed to which left me wondering how these acts ever got signed & released...So I'll repeat myself (again) since some folks apparently have to read something repeatedly for it to register
 (note use of emoticon here):"I believe that I also earlier stated that I thought wrap & hip hop sucked, at least the stuff that I've heard...Conceding that I couldn't possibly have heard everything (no one has...I hope) & that there may be some wonderful acts out there, I'm comfortable with my judgement of that particular material"...Note use of phrases "at least the stuff that I've heard", "there may be some wonderful acts" & "that particular material", and nothing such as "all of wrap/hip hop sucks" or the like...
 So if you interpret the above as condemning those entire genres then you're free to do so...In my mind, the stock of those particular musical styles doesn't go through the roof with me based on my personal experience, and doesn't make it very likely for me spending lots of time researching other examples that I might like...
After all, as was stated previously: "differences in taste underpin this whole debate", so when I say that I think what I've heard so far sucks, that's particular to my possibly different musical taste vs yours...Is that too harsh a condemnation of those entire styles of music? Hey, if my initial 20-30 exposures to Jazz had been negative I might've felt the same way about it too, but still wouldn't come out & say that all of Jazz sucks (just the stuff I've heard)...
And finally a warning to all others, in case you plan to voice your displeasure re: any of the above listed musical styles in future threads...Make sure you pay the proper love & respect to these styles even if your personal experience to date was negative...Political correctness & love for all mankind demand it!
...Oops, almost forgot: Can't we all just get along???
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 07 2006 at 08:34
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Well, Wolf. I don't see why it is that you feel the need to continuously spell it Wrap?
It's only marginally less annoying than the ever-popular (c)Rap and
doesn't really do anything except note that you don't like it. Imagine
someone trying to discuss their lack of appreciation for Progressive
Rock and calling it "Frog Rock" throughout. It doesn't really add
anything to the discussion. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't certain genres I am disrespectful of - or at least some of the signature acts of those genres (and it's inevitably about me seeing them as pandering to a lowest common denominator, an accusation that certainly fits the bill for most mainstream Rap) - but I still don't see the point of warping their names, unless maybe it's done once for effect when trying to make a particular point. -------------
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 07 2006 at 10:19
You mean it's not spelled "w-r-a-p"?
 I stand corrected! ...Actually I thought it was a very good way of denoting my (current) dislike, saves a lot of time you know. Just think how much shorter this whole thread would have been...But much less fun, I admit... Has Ivan run out of gas? What time is it in Peru (or in Sweden for that matter)? You know, I could possibly be turned around on this whole topic with some further convincing arguments (but I do draw the line at yodeling, I don't care how many hours per day of practice are involved)!
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: June 07 2006 at 13:21
If that works for you, then try anything by Jean Grae, who by dint of being a smart woman is obviously a bit removed from that male bragging Gangsta Rap that probably is the main exposure most people get to Rap, so you don't have those overtones. Her rhythmic sophistication is pretty much self-evident to anyone who listens closely. Now, if all that works out...well, then check the two lists posted earlier in the thread. -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 07 2006 at 13:38
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Once a member starts to attack the Moderator then it is time to acknowledge that the thread has run its course. That's a (w)rap folks!! |