News from Nick Barrett (Pendragon)
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Topic: News from Nick Barrett (Pendragon)
Posted By: Wilcey
Subject: News from Nick Barrett (Pendragon)
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 03:41
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I thought as some insight into the effect of downloading you might be interested in the following: What I can tell you is we are hurtin' because of the overall effect of downloads. In 2004/05 we made a financial loss as we were busy writing, recording, resurrecting the record label, organising the tour/merchandise etc and generally getting into a lot of debt just 'living'. Our end of year profit for year ended 2006 [Believe release financial year] was £30,000. 2007 also looks set to make a loss after high touring costs. So that's £30,000 total that Pendragon grossed, over 4 years which is £7,500 a year before tax, royalties to the rest of the band, council tax and I have 3 children and a mortgage......4 years that have see-sawed through terrible debt for me personally and the band in the vague hope that "when the next album comes out we'll be able to clear what we owe"....this is the only income I have. To run Pendragon is a full time job. Just as a small sample, on Komodo alone , over 200 people potentially [we cannot be sure because they don't all "thank" the "releaser"...which is a joke in itself, like these guys wrote and recorded the frikkin album!] downloaded the soundtrack last weekend of our new DVD Past And Presence as opposed to the 10 people who bought it from our site, this weekend from our site we sold 2. 300 people have downloaded a sort of "10 album Pendragon package" from Pirate Bay which is a loss for us of between £15,000 and £25,000![depending on whether they would have been retail sales or from a wholesaler] And this is from this one site alone! We are in a transitional period for this new epoch of downloading, and can only hope that over time people will realise the damage being done to the musicians. We accept that it's slow, but we are utterly at the mercy of the goodwill of YOU the individual, if we are seen to antagonise this we have heard of people who, in their indignance have gone and downloaded even more just out of spite.......this, put simply is just bad behaviour, probably a throw back to childhood.."I want my toys, and I want your toys, I want I want....my rights.." utterly selfish f***ing behaviour! On another forum there was one guy who said he had downloaded one album and then gone out to buy 80 items related to that artist.......GREAT, I wish we had 20,000 fans like that, I am not gonna split hairs over downloading one album, today, tomorrow , 5 years ago or whatever, all we can do is hope that YOU will be responsible and respectful with something we have put our hearts and souls into....and got into shed loads of debt to make! I hear a lot of psychobable about we need to change our 'business model', we need to do this, we need to do that...everyone's an expert when it comes to other people's problems, [but usually total imbeciles with their own!] Let's not forget Pendragon have survived for 30 years [as a non household name!], if there is any way we can keep surviving you can bet we've already thought of it! It is very hard to keep going through this neverending cycle of yo-yoing debt, and play the 'will they, won't they get out of debt with the next album' game. There is also a creeping new way of thinking, which goes along the lines of, "I download it, if it doesn't instantly entertain me/thrill me, I don't buy it". With this new "MacDonalds" mentality that people are starting to adopt, I am now wondering if I am part of a business I don't want to be involved with. Some people are saying if a meal was not cooked in restaurant to their satisfaction they wouldn't have to pay for it, well actually they would if there was nothing "wrong" with it...particularly if you'd already eaten it! This is just git mentality. Music is not a commodity like buying a grey stark insurance policy, it is supposed to bring some colour into our lives, it raises questions/debate and inspires us, it just so happens that it costs us something to make for which we ask for some reasonable recompense. Well, The Lamb Lies Down, Tony Banks Curious Feeling and Tears For Fears Seeds Of Love were all albums I loathed when I first heard them, but they were a challenge and I worked with them, listening to them often and carefully over the weeks, I remember where I bought them, when I bought them and they slowly became like precious stones , brilliant and bringing a quality to my life that I will never forget. To see the real value of something you must look much much deeper than you think, trouble is we are lazy.....and we're getting lazier, more selfish and want to make as little effort , sacrifice and cost to ourselves as possible with everything....the world cannot sustain that! The trouble is, I might get lazy. Will the next Pendragon album be the last one? It's up to you. |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 03:45
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good post, prog-chick, it illustrates the reality of it |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 03:51
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Indeed- I have some 5 Pendragon albums and I have bought them all, you'd be pleased to know. I came across 'As Good As Gold' and 'Paintbox' via this site and 'The Masquerade Overture' remains one of my fave prog albums. I would buy a new album as imho, 'Believe' gave them a new lease of life. Hope Nick decides to stick it out- I saw that Channel 4 documentary with Pendragon and he seemed like a genuine person, far removed from those cold automatons that were instructing him to change his way of doing things. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 04:15
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The Channel 4 documentary certainly highlighted that the business side of things was seen as a necessary inconvenience by the band. Although the "automons" suggestions seemed distasteful, they did highlight the cold reality of the situation. Throughout the programme, the band put their musical priorities ahead of their financial ones. From a fan's perspective this may seem noble, but in the end food has to be put on the table.
It's probably not constructive for this thread to turn into another debate about illegal downloading, Nick's message sums up the way it affects a band well.
One thing I did note though was the "McDonald's" comment. People have been listening to music in this way for many years, it's not a new thing. Since the 50's, record shops have had listening posts, people have borrowed records from friends, radio stations have featured albums, etc. The fact is that different people listen to music on different levels. Some are simply looking for a simple melody, a sing-a-long chorus, a good beat etc. If they don't hear that on first listen, they are not interested. I think it would be unreasonable to expect people to buy albums totally blind, in the hope that they might enjoy them.
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 07:03
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The CH4 documentry was in fact a joke, the advice (given on screen by 19 yr old "gurus" but infact dreamt up by the TV crew) was to start a different business ie a music school, also they suggested charging kids £20 per hour for this. There is a FANTASTIC music school in Swindon....... £50 a term. They were making TV........ unforutnately they were not making sense. Listening posts in '50's Britain are NOT the equivilent of the download gerneration and I think we are all smart enough here to know it. I understand why polls and threads get closed and deleted, I understand that this is a volatile subject....... but it's not going away. Decent music will go away though. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 07:42
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I actually find it quite shocking that a great band like Pendragon have to exist so close to the breadline.
"300 people have downloaded a sort of "10 album Pendragon package" from Pirate Bay which is a loss for us of between £15,000 and £25,000"
That information alone should be enough for us to make sure we support bands like this by not using illegal download sites.
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 07:53
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^Yes, I totally agree. One thing I do think is a good idea though is the set-up we have here- a sample track- or like on MySpace or most band's own websites these days. Like I said, this is how I discovered Pendragon but also bands like IQ and The Flower Kings too. The track can often entice fans to try out more- I've rarely been disappointed by these myself (though Spock's Beard's last album I bought after hearing samples in this way and it wasn't really what I had expected...there is always that risk).
Has Nick ever seen the way Marillion do things? Not sure about the ins and outs but their business methods seem to have been a huge success for Marillion- remember that big article in the Times a few weeks ago which cited them as pioneers...Marillion don't seem (at least not if I understand it properly) to have to answer to the conventional music industry problems at all.
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Posted By: luc4fun
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 08:24
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I agree on the fact that if we love a band or an album, we should not download it, but buy it immediately. I knew Pendragon from PA and after 1 month I had all their CDs in my collection (all bought). What I dont understand is why many bands websites, sell their records or DVD at much higher price that what you can easily find on ebay for new CDs on sale.. For Pendragon I bought all Cds new on Ebay and just one DVD on the bands website (which costed me much more than what I could find on ebay anyway). I believe, keeping prog alive is a goal which should be followed not only by musicians but also by people who love prog, and the only way is supporting bands like Pendragon avoiding downloading their music. Long live to Nick and Pendragon...we all appreciate your efforts!  |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 08:30
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I've met Nick myself and he definitely is a genuine guy.
I fully agree with your sentiments, Nick. If a back-catalogue is available for a band, I'll do my best to purchase as many of them as possible.
The one problem I find is with defunct (and even extant) bands whose albums have disappeared into the ether. It's very difficult to find vinyl/CD copies of many of these rare albums, so in this situation a download may suffice, until a genuine copy is sought. Many prog bands I like, fit into the above category. Taal, Ensemble Nimbus, Anglagard and some others... all are 1990s bands and their albums are almost impossible to find (and when they do turn up, they're pricey).
If I like a band (infact, I don't necessarily have to like them), I'll buy an album if and when I see it. Many albums I own on CD have been purchased online through American vendors. Not everyone likes using credit/debit cards online (and under 18s generally don't have one anyhow), so it's often difficult to buy an album when you cannot find it in the shops. I don't believe I've ever seen a Pendragon album in the shops in Swindon (I could be wrong though, so tell me if this is the case or not) and infact, both H.M.V. and Virgin Megastore in the town, are very poorly stocked with non-commercial music (especially prog). Of course, this is not the fault of the bands, but the buying public. I wish there was a more specialist music shop in Swindon (or even in close proximity). They want popular music, so the music shops stock the popular music.
I just wish distribution of less-popular music could be better distributed (I don't mean electronically, of course). I am definitely happy to support bands by purchasing their albums.
It's food for thought, that's for sure. -------------   
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 09:22
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I'm not suggesting the C4 programme had all the right answers PC, but the fact that Nick sought advice via the programme indicates that there is a recognition that financial acumen is perhaps not his longest suit. He seemd to say as much in the broadcast. That is not to belittle the major challenges band ssuch as Pendragon face though in today's environment.
As far as the listening posts/try before you buy comment is concerned, I was responding there to Nick's observation:
"There is also a creeping new way of thinking, which goes along the lines of, "I download it, if it doesn't instantly entertain me/thrill me, I don't buy it". With this new "MacDonalds" mentality that people are starting to adopt, I am now wondering if I am part of a business I don't want to be involved with."
His comment there does not seem to be specifically about downloading, but about previewing the music before deciding whether to buy it. The point I was making was that most people would wish to do so both now, and historically. This is a different issue of course to retaining the preview instead of buying the album, which has been a bone of contention since the invention of the cassette recorder.
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Posted By: Wotgorilla
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 09:55
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Perhaps Pendragon should give the upcoming Peter Gabriel-backed WE7 download site a go - I'm not sure how much artists will make from this, but it has to be better than having 300 people downloading 10 albums for nothing. ------------- "Thru the darkest age we can surely fly, thru the darkest age with the Fist of Fire" |
Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:05
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This really is shocking news from Nick, and I have to confess that after 30 years of buying music in many forms, that I had no idea of how close to the edge in terms of the profit made that some of my favourite bands are. I for one would like to apologise to Nick for being so ignorant of the situation.
Smugly I can say I have never downloaded anything & that I have always bought straightaway, & I will always think twice before ever sanctioning that sort of action if the opportunity arose.
I sincerely hope that Nick and the guys do make another Pendragon album soon, and I'm sure it will be a magnum opus. It's on my most wanted list now.
 Best wishes to Nick & Pendragon.
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:22
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I totally love Pendragon, and Nick seems like a very nice and friendly man, so everybody start buying Pendragon goodies.
The first thing that always springs to mind when reading and hearing Nick Barret's take on dowloading and that sort of thing, is how Marillion did it, somehow they turned the internet to a Marillion-friendly place, attracting customers and creating both desire as deliverance of Marillion stuff.
Personally i see the internet and even the possibility of downloading as a big chance for stable bands with a reasonable fanbase, but it requires good knowledge of your customers, close contact with the fans and includes a lot of work maintaining the fanbase.
unfortunatly for Nick, the current situation will eventually lead to music being totally free of charge, it's not good or bad, it's just the future of music, so income will have to come from other sources, pre-selling the album like Marillion does is an exciting alternative, I don't know if that's a step Pendragon can take.
anyway I hope Nick will be able to keep making music, for that's what he does best.
Got to love Pendragon  ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:54
| Well, it's an impressive comment by mr. Nick Barrett! |
Posted By: huge
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 13:06
| Most bands output are accessible through the high street, though at times a little investigation and inquiry helps. I purchased both Knight Areas albums through Woolworths and paid what I felt was a reasonable price (£9.99), their delivery times though forecast as long were in fact prompt. I state the above in response to Gecko and his Swindon problem, it is the same here in Shrewsbury... |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 13:16
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Some fault must lie within the music business itself. Whether it be retailers, reviewers, DJs or someone from the record company - somebody is leaking albums onto the internet before their official release date. I read a story that an un-named UK music journalist is being prosecuted by Atlantic for leaking the new Rush album. Strangely I was offered an advance review copy of Snakes and Arrows by their US publicity group but only received it in the post yesterday (album released 15 days ago....) so I must be deemed totally untrustworthy unlike the journo...however despite the leak Rush's album reached #3 on the Billboard Album Chart.
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 13:33
Hence CDs, live shows and studio time will be for free too?  It'll be great, but it's a one-way street - the artist hires a studio, records an album, makes a tour and ... eats air - because tickets are free and album is already in the net. I wonder how indie labels survive - they have both lack of public and artists...
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tuxon wrote:Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 14:14
The popular stuff can be found (I've found a UK outlet online who can get a lot of prog for me, some of which is quite hard to get elsewhere), but a lot of rare stuff I cannot find anywhere (legally), because they were only brought out on vinyl, didn't get the coverage they deserved and never got re-issued on CD. Of course, many of these bands weren't amazing, but many released solid albums that deserve to be re-released. I can only hope eventually a lot of my favourite music is re-released. When I do find them, I'll obviously try and purchase them. I prefer CDs over Digital copies anyhow. I've always preferred it that way. By the way, I actually know a guy who doesn't buy CDs any more, he downloads everything. He's not into prog and is mainly into more mainstream metal, but he's still not helping the system. It doesn't matter if the band or artists are millionaires, it's still not a good thing to do. I've been guilty of downloading leaked albums before now, I'll freely admit it, but I do not plan to download leaks again. Infact, I don't want to download brand new releases at all if I can. I've deliberately held back on purchasing the new Alamaailman Vasarat and Anekdoten albums (even though I could download them if I wanted to), because I want them on CD. I also pretty well know I'll enjoy them both (I've heard samples for the new AV album on their MySpace account). I'm waiting for my source to get them in stock, then I can purchase them legally. Therefore, I'm very pro-CD/Vinyl release. -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 14:49
| What's disappointing is that a very recent poll on PA, since deleted, showed that around half of the people who took part in the poll regularly download illegally. |
Posted By: Nick Barrett
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 18:02
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yeah....too right, where is the poll , is the heat gettin too much in the kitchen boys? fanks for the other support messages! Luv NB |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:31
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I saw that poll and was a little disturbed by it. Half of what makes a music fan a true music fan is the willingness to support the band and their craft. I obtained a leaked copy of the new Rush and the new DT; however, I bought the new Rush the day it came out, and plan on doing the same for the new DT. Not doing so is just another form of shoplifting. I should also include the fact that I gave the copies to nobody. Never left my iTunes. Put your money where your mouth is and buy the friggin' music legitimately. E ------------- 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:43
I admit to having done some things related to album leaks I'm not proud of, but since I don't have much of an income and mu lust for discovering new music is insatiable, I think my situation is understandable. I have bought every Pendie's album I have, I believe, even Acoustically Challenged. I do wish circumstances would have been in my favor when getting The Masquerade Overture, so I could magically have the new issue with the bonus older material! 
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:47
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It must be tough, though, being a prog artist now. Even way back when in the Golden era, only the really big bands could make a rock star's living surely. But Pendragon's situation seems absolutely dire, especially for seasoned musicians. And I thought Pendragon were popular, by a modern prog perspective! Imagine what the even lesser-known acts have to deal with!
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:53
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We have no choicw, we have to support our prog bands. BUY every album, go to every show, go ahead get a shirt. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:55
Problem is most of my favorite bands are Euros and either don't have the funds or fanbase to make it across the Atlantic. The only bands I ever get a crack at seeing are Porcupine tree and DT, who hardly need the cash compared to Pendragon. And I was going to buy a Believe t-shirt, but I thought having a naked guy's ass plastered on the front might send the wrong signal. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 20:58
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If I see an album by them, I'd get it. They seem like an interesting band and I've been meaning to check them out. No, I have not downloaded any of their cds. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 21:47
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I really hope that the next Pendragon CD won't be the last.
I do not doubt Nick's figures, but the 300 people who downloaded the 10 album package would never in a million years have gone out and bought all 10 CD's, some of them might, but not all. It is impossible to calculate the actual loss incured because it is impossible to predict how many of those 300 people would have even bought 1 CD, but it would not have been all 300. However, it would have been some, so Toff Records,Pendragon and Nick have definitely lost out.
The sorry fact is that the majority of non-mainstream bands do not make money and only few of them are lucky enough to be able to do the job full-time. The maths of CD sales, royalties and label contracts are readily available on the net and it is so scary and weighted in the record labels favour that you wonder why anyone would even bother trying in the first place. If you are self-financed or unsigned then mechandise is the only way of recovering some of the recording costs, because you won't get them back by CD sales alone.
I don't approve of downloading, or "try before you buy" as it is euphemistically called, but if a band has some tracks on MySpace, I'll listen and if I like I'll buy.
------------- What? |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 15 2007 at 22:15
Speaking for myself, I did not actively go out and seek the leaked copies of the new Rush and DT--they were offered by a co-worker. It would be hard for anyone NOT to give them a listen. E -------------
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 02:36
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I was just about to post this myself when I found that prog-chick had already done it. I think that Nick Barrett's message is very important and deserves as much publicity as possible. Sadly I don't think that this message will be heard in the mainstream media.
I wonder what the future of small prog bands is. I fear that many might go under unless something is done. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">  |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 02:41
Nick, is that really you?! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:09
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Yes Bob, it was Nick..... really......This post was originally on the Pendies forum, and has spread......the answers have been interesting.......we have read them all....... Can I say a couple of things? Stonie- go look at the Pendies website, the Believe t-shirt has a pic of monkies on the front, NOT a naked bloke's butt!!!!!!!...... . Your 'lust' may be insatiable, and you might have a low income, but where I come from the poor don't steal from the poor..... having seen our income do you find the 'low income' argument acceptable? It's great to hear you don't download Pendies stuff, but really this whole section of music is in danger, go to the IQ forum to see what Widge has to say, it's happening guys. BTW: the "Golden era" you talk of took Nick and the boys all the way up to 1999/2000...... that is when sales patterns of 20/30 years changed, when peoples habits changed. The difference in patterns (esp since 2001) is quite dramatic Darqdean, "I don't approve of downloading, or "try before you buy" as it is euphemistically called, but if a band has some tracks on MySpace, I'll listen and if I like I'll buy" exactly! The Pendies have stuff on Myspace, YouTube and on their website, enough in total for about an hour and a half of listening/watching........ the majority of bands do, to take anything else is bad behaviour. Thanks for your support guys! P-C |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 07:47
I wonder too...check the profile
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Posted By: pots
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 08:46
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I listen samples on internet and if I like it I buy the cd and that's what people should do and not downloading.It 's a shame that a great band like Pendragon is nearly alive
and a band like (Les 3 Accords = Québec pop band)' making millions with music that
sucks (well I suppose someone like it) It's the music business who's sick =it's like
fast food=money,money and no taste.What we need it's a millionnaire who love PROG and put it on the air =commercial radio.
Pots  ------------- pots |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 08:58
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A quick question in relation to sales of albums (either in CD or Vinyl format).
When someone sells an album on (e.g. on eBay), am I correct in saying that the artist(s) will see none of the money?
Am I correct in saying that artist(s) will only make money from the initial sale of an album, from the distribution company? Therefore they won't make money when someone sells an album on via eBay (I mean through private vendors)?
How does the system work? I'm curious. If Nick or Rachel (or anyone else for that matter), could answer this, I'd be pleased to hear from them. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:05
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If it is secondhand or used then the artist and the record company get nothing.
If it is new from an eShop then the seller would have bought stock from a distributor (eg Plastic Head) so the record company has already been paid.
If it is the artist selling direct (I know of instances where this happens) then obviously they get everything. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:23
When you buy second hand things, the original seller never gets any money. If you buy a second hand Ford, Ford doesn't get any money from you. I think that selling CDs second hand is OK as long as you don't keep any copies of the music. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:48
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Unless like me, you have remastered copies of albums and no longer need the originals.
So buying a Pendragon CD straight from their website, means Toff Records (and the band members) will get money from the buyer?
So in the case of Anglagard, even though their albums fetch extraordinary prices, they don't see any of it?
Whilst I'm here, how do Royalty cheques work? Especially in the case of Independents labels, such as Toff Records. What are the rules for playing full length tracks on public radio? -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 10:10
keeping a copy of an original that you have sunsequently sold on is a copyright infringement, even if you own a remastered version of the same recording. You are only allowed to keep a personal copy (on your PC for your mp3 player) while you still own the original.
/edit: http://www.vocalist.org.uk/copyright_royalties.html - royalties explained ------------- What? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 10:15
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Actually, I've never sold any albums. but I guess giving them to someone for free is illegal too? That's what I did with my old copies of albums I now have remastered. -------------
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Posted By: Nick Barrett
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 12:18
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Gee,,...so many questions ! So little time....er where to start [btw. I love it though...you guys are asking and that gets the juices going!!!!!] Darqdean : Yes of course you are right. However, I made some adjustments to those figures because, if you take 300 people x 10 albums x £10 [approx cd price] that does in fact make £30,000, [not the £15-£25k I reported!] so I already took into account a certain amount of eliminating factors.......also bear in mind this is only one site, even if only 10% of those 300 people did not buy a single cd, across all the download/pirate sites the income lost is fairly huge. There is a site in Russia that offers our stuff for absolute peanuts , the site claims they pay the artists royalties, utter rubbish, we have never received any royalties whatsoever from one of these sites, DON'T BUY FROM THEM!! [bear in mind the poll that was deleted here on PA showed that 53% of people who took part said they downloaded as 'anything on the internet was fair game'] All I can tell you is that our back catalogue album sales virtually stopped dead since 2001, [I spoke with Martin from IQ yesterday who agreed they had the same thing] Backcat sales was our lifeblood because in lean times it kept 'the boat afloat', also now a new album will hit its peak sales within 6-8 weeks of release and then almost completely stop dead, Before 2001 the sales would continue to drift reasonably along for approx 18 months and drag more backcatalogue sales along with it. Bob Greece: Yes it's me mate...can't you tell from my avatar?? Hee hee.. You said "Sadly I don't think that this message will be heard in the mainstream media". The mainstream media never really got prog and I don't have much time for them either, but it's our little world-o-prog that needs the support, if ALL the people who genuinely liked this music with the depth I think they do, bought the cds, it would be a pretty strong force to contend with, with or without mainstream press, we would survive... hugely! It's utter b*ll*cks [as some have said on other forums] that the prog scene would become staid if only a few bands could make a living, in the 90's we had more money and were promoting bands and signing others to Toff Records. We had an imports company Impy Imports that got hold of many rare 'hard to get' cds like Galleon, Aragon etc. The word was spreading.... GeckO; A very interesting point James! Yes you are right....mostly , as occasionally record labels and bands sell their own stuff on ebay, therefore the band get a royalty. However, one of the most difficult aspects for musicians/label to stomach is that often an individual will buy a new album [at this point the musician gets their royalty] then burn it and sell the original on ebay for half what he paid, figuring that getting back half what he paid is better than nothing, this original CD then travels from pillar to post being burnt , the same cd could be sold 25 times, but earning the musician just 1 royalty payment for 1 cd. This happens! We are currently looking into ways of making some thing special for people who buy from us, ie the possibility of a free exclusive additional release when you buy something from us, that would hopefully cut the 'ebay copy and pasters' down. Buying straight from us is the best way for us, and for most fans . Sometimes people say but it's more expensive to buy from the bands directly. But if you have a mail order system the band have to pay to ship and pack the individual CD, whereas the usual store will not, they may have some courier costs but I can tell you it doesn't cost HMV £1.50 for transport for every cd they stock ! Also there is a new scam going of not paying the VAT, we have noticed these pop up where companies appear not to be declaring VAT, there are "back doors" offering cheap cds, some cheaper if you pay by cash. As we have all our mail order sales go through a secure PDQ credit card system, all our sales are logged and there is no chance to fraud the system of VAT, so we have to pay 17.5% of what we charge onto HM Customs + Excise. Because we have also paid for : the recording/artwork/musicians/pressing/promotion/distribution of the initial cd, our costs are higher, these costs are not generally borne by stores, dealers and distributors. Royalties, even on a small label like Toff are paid directly to the artists usually on a quarterly basis, for all records sold through that label that the artist played on . For radio play there is a publishing copyright royalty for which the artist who wrote the music is paid each time the record is played , but this usually only occurs when the song is played on a big station, for example in 1983 when we played a session on the Friday Rock Show BBC [3 songs] we got about £300 , from the agency called PRS that collects these royalties on our behalf. We would probably get nothing from an entire evening of Pendragon music broadcasted on yer average Los Calchakis Radio in downtown Buenos Aires , but instead obviously we would get the exposure we sorely need from them. Cheers Nick B |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 13:31
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Thanks Nick for clearing that up. I'll try and get down to Riffs one of these days and hopefully you'll be around to have a proper chat. Well I've bought albums off of eBay, but of course, I'm a genuine purchaser who wants the original album. I only ever resort to eBay if something is very difficult to find or OOP. Most of the time I can get albums elsewhere from proper suppliers. Infact, often I've paid inflated prices just because I use only 3 or 4 suppliers most of the time. Often a CD is cheaper elsewhere, but it's not worth setting up an account just to buy one CD. I definitely think offering something extra with CDs would a good idea. I had a weird idea some time ago that if ever I released an album, I'd relase regional versions. This would mean people all over the world (or even within certain areas), would get different editions of the CD. I don't think different artwork is necessarily the answer (a lot of people don't care about artwork, unless you're a true music fan), but perhaps a different track listing, or particular bonus tracks would make the difference. Of course, that's more work for the performer(s), but it could make some difference. The other option is to maybe supply something that cannot be digitised with the album; like a t-shirt, a pen, badges, stickers... things like that. Infact, that's one thing I miss: badges. I have a band badge on my hat (just a simple round badge with the band's name on it) and I am after further badges with band logos or names on, but it seems nobody produces such things anymore. Your own idea is also a good one. Other bands have done similar before, I've noticed. Offering a CD of bonus tracks, or live material, if you buy certain albums. There's much to think about and you have to get the balance right. You need to ask yourself: what do fans of Pendragon want? -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 13:41
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I think the downloading problem is the attitude this current generation has. I get made fun of at school because I go out and buy albums that I want to listen to instead of illegally downloading. All my friends have a "if it's in the public viewing then it's okay to download" and they don't even consider that someone put time and effort into that product and that they are stealing. I don't even want to tell them what artists I listen to because I know they will just download it and then my recommendations will become part of the problem. I do my best by making sure my small contribution goes to the artist by buying legitimately. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 13:59
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Making a personal choice is also part of the solution, and that's good. I was in high school in the early and mid eighties, EVERYONE listened to Duran Duran, Culture Club etc etc, I was the outsider who listened to prog, (although I didn't know it was called that at the time..... let alone all the sub-genre nonsense ) Sometimes you kinda have to do your own thing, and in the long run it pays divedends. It is hard to stick your head above the parapet when you are in school. I am trying to change some attitudes towards free-loading, and because I am out of the peer-pressure-cooker of youth it's easier for me to do. The message filters through, my nephews are 23 and 21, 5 years ago when they got hooked up on broadband one of them enthusiastically told me that you can get music for free on the web, a lot of people just don't think it through, and a lot of them have no ill intentions or malice or spite, they just don't get that they are robbing the bands they love. By spreading a message about it we can reach more and more folk like that. PC |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 14:08
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As my chemistry teacher put it (WARNING: very bad chemistry pun going to follow): "Don't be part of the precipitate, be part of the solution"  |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 14:23
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I've said it a thousand times but it's worth re-iterating.
I never download, other than approved songs from the artist's website to try. I never buy second hand CDs and I do not lend or borrow CDs. I only ever buy new CDs and then never from a big chainstore, although I do buy all mine over the net. So that is sometimes from large companies like Amazon - but not prog, only mainstream. My prog comes from specialist suppliers or direct from band's websites.
I understand full well the implications of getting "free" music and what that means to Nick and other artists, and that is the main reason for taking the stance that I have. The other, important to me, reason is that I, quite simply, will not break the law. There is nothing clever about illegality - without obeying laws society is screwed and we will all suffer the consequences.
What's the point in having principles and not sticking to them?
I know a lot of people who do not share my opinions will mock my "holier than thou" attitude. Well tough - I could not care less, mock all you like. It's quite simple - the more I adhere to legality on this issue, the more likely it is that people like Nick will be able to continue making the sort of music I like. Without him, and his kind, music, and life would be that much poorer.
I'm not after praise - I know that I wouldn't get it anyway, but I think it's important for all of us who believe in honesty to make a stand and let artists know that some of us are with them. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 15:35
In case you stop back again Nick, I'm wond'ring how much (if any)
airplay "No Place for the Innocent" got. I really think it deserved a
good amount of play, but I have a sneaking suspicion most stations
wouldn't give it the time of day!  And prog-chick, I don't want to leave you with the intention I plan to download and never repay. I do it to find out new bands mostly, and I will surely get around to purchasing the item sooner or later. I don't like digital music, and I prefer to have the real thing, but it suffices until I have enough cash. Believe me, if I don't spend my roughly $25 a week on movies at the theater, it's on CDs. And for bands who release material I know I will love, like Pendragon, Porcupine Tree, Rush, Dream Theater, Marillion, IQ, etc., I'm sure to buy their albums ASAP. I find downloading cheapens the "awe factor" of a new album purchase, so I have a natural mind to not download. But in this world of rare and obscure music, I'm really not in a financial position to take risks on albums that aren't what i think are sure things. I like a lot of prog, but not enough to be sure that anything will make me happy. Just so you know my stance. The last thing I want to do is to have musicians suffer from me not buying their albums, but through recommendations and albums found on blogs, I can get better knowledge of obscure bands. And even if that band doesn't please me, it will surely please someone else. Most likely James that conniving RIO fanatic. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 15:38
that made me smile. I've been listening to Prog since the early 70's, though in the 80's I succumbed to the dark delights of gothic rock and in the early 90's to extreme metal. 1996's Masquerade Overture was my guilty pleasure. Without that I would not have listened to Porcupine Tree etc. ------------- What? |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:49
The problem with this, is that you're missing out on a lot of wonderful OOP music that you can only get second-hand. -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 16 2007 at 21:22
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OK, I have a question for Nick. I buy a lot of stuff (and when I say 'a lot', I mean too much really. When my wife balances the ledger, I literally pace back and forth as if I'm headed for the electric chair) from Greg Walker here in the States. I know he's highly regarded in the prog community and is a standup guy. I want to know how much of the cut does the band receive if I buy discs through him? For example, I bought the DVD/CD 'And Now Everybody To The Stage' from him last fall, but without giving exact figures, what percentage of the sale went into the band's pocket? I do have to add that as much as I've supported music most of my life, I now have a wife, a daughter, student loans, mortgage, etc. that takes quite a bit of money. I know ordering something from, say, Giant Electric Pea costs considerably more than ordering from Greg. Not only that, but I normally get my stuff from Greg in about 2 days (gotta feed the need). I would love nothing more than to buy directly from the band; however, if I can support my family and at the same time support my music fetish and the band, then it does make sense for me to keep using Greg. E -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 02:58
No I'm not - I have almost everything I have ever wanted. There are only something like 8 albums that I want that are not currently in print - and I am more than happy to wait for another issue. After all, all the rare albums I had previously been after are now in my CD collection - all bought new!
So, with respect, what exactly am I missing out on?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 03:06
Obviously, an answer from Nick (or similar) would be interesting. But not all bands are geared up to distributing their own music. Then we, the buying public are forced, as it were, to use suppliers. It is then important to chose, where possible, an indie like Greg. Their profit margins are that much smaller than the big chains and they do not have the buying power, and huge discounts, that the biggies demand, and get. And yet, despite that, they are often cheaper - they also are living on the bread line.
It is as important to us, I believe, that we keep these small indie suppiers going. They alone offer us the choice.
So, keep buying from bands but also keep using indies like Greg Walker, Doug Larson and UK's Malcolm Parker at GFT/Cyclops.
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 04:01
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Great to see you posting here Nick!
How did you feel about the C4 programme afterwards. Did you find it useful? Did you feel it portrayed your situation and attitudes accurately? Did anything change as a result?
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 08:18
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Thanks Nick for posting here and for replying to our comments. We are always really happy when someone from a prog band posts here.
I have no idea what the future of music is now and I've thought quite a lot about it. Maybe Prog Archives should have a banner on the website which says "illegal downloading is killing music"? It would certainly makes a good change from the "This is not a joke - click here you're a winner" adverts!
I think that when you're a real fan of the music, you like to have some physical object from the band. That's why I always liked records and CDs as you can see them on your shelves. It's also nice to have the little booklets to read through. Maybe bands could start publishing more books with pictures and lyrics in them to go along with the music? Maybe it's not practical but it's just an idea.
Nick - why don't you start a thread on the forum asking people for ideas about what can be done about illegal downloading?! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> |
Posted By: Nick Barrett
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 11:22
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Hi E Dub, we have worked with Greg for many years and know he is a top guy, we sell directly to him, and out of a typical CD we sell to him I guess we would get in the area of $9 + shipping [more for a DVD..but then our costs are higher for DVDs so...] but it depends on the title/current exchange rates etc. This a fair price. It is true to say dealers do make good money on their sales I think , but it can be a helluva risky business in some cases as people like Greg take our stuff on a 'finished product ' basis...ie: he pays for everything he orders, not like some distributors who only pay for what they sell [and return the rest if sales slow up,,,, but they often sell bigger amounts, so it's swings and roundabouts mate!] We also understand that people like Greg have a good reputation and folk will feel comfortable buying from him, which in turn is important to us too. It's about a kind of 'long distance team work'...without the likes of Greg, we wouldn't get the number of sales...so it's good for us that people will get cds from either us or from Greg. Glueman said "So, keep buying from bands but also keep using indies like Greg Walker, Doug Larson and UK's Malcolm Parker at GFT/Cyclops" Quite right too...for us at least this is good , because personally I like dealing with people who take an interest in what we do, they usually know one or two radio stations who they will talk into playing some prog, and like Greg put on things like Progfest, this is how the prog life force survives, one big network that ebbs and flows! Easy Livin: Phew....have you got a couple of hours mate??? While I think Antonia [the producer] was very brave to show the so called 'teen tycoons' disregard for musical integrity, you have to remember the level of 'staging' in programmes like these, it is unbelievable! Eg:, Michael, the guy who was pushing the Rock School idea, said to me when the cameras were off, "geeeeeezzzz....pleeeeeease don't think this was MY IDEA!!!!!!"...ha ha ha.....hotdog!!!!! Also, these guys were not quite as big tycoons as you might think, one of them only 'turning over' TURNING OVER £50k a year...that really is not 'tycoon status' in my book!!!!! They were cheerfully hopeless with people and team building, they were very young and had no real life experiences, for them getting money was king, they wouldn't last a year in a band where you have sooooo many considerations to take into account. Like diplomacy, building loyalty, working well when the chips are down, utter belief...the list could go on forever. The programme made me look like 'not a very good business man', but actually I am. Pendragon did very well in the late 80's and 90's , this was when I took over from our then managers from a £12k debt and started Toff Records, got a distribution deal with Pinnacle in the UK [the UK's largest independent distributors] I also negotiated the return of all our publishing copyrights from Charisma Publishing [so we now fully own all the rights to our songs] and negotiated with EMI for the license to re release The Jewel, 9.15 Live and The Rest Of. In the 90's Pendragon was financially extremely strong, and getting stronger as we could afford to make regular albums, go touring and even got to the point where we were doing major radio advertising campaigns on Virgin and Capital Radio. Why I don't come over a a good businessman on the programme is probably because I don't like greed...one little bit, or ripping off kids, or being mercenary, in my view a good businessman is someone who can judge a situation and act accordingly and fairly, it takes a lot more than, being mercenary, loudmouthed , hard on fellow human beings and lacking integrity, of course there are those that are...but I don't like them! What they didn't say in the programme regarding the Rock School for example was: A] down the road in Swindon [2 miles away] there is a brilliant Rock School already running with proper teachers and equipment and lots of rooms as they used the local college, for this they charged £50 a term, so about once a week for 12 weeks say. The Teen Tycoons thought I should charge £20 a lesson per person, costing the kids £240 each for the same 12 week period......sorry but this is just plain incompetent pie in the sky day dreamer talk! B ] Michael said on the programme that because I refused to charge the kids, I lost out on £600 or thereabouts, which makes it sound like, 'wow, what an idiot...he just said goodbye to £600 in one day'...what they didn't tell you is that their figures just don't stack up, out of the five people we did have doing the rock school assuming they would have paid £20 each for 2 days would have been £200. Again...utter incompetent pie in the sky day dreamer talk! C] Someone asked why, if we were not going to follow their advice did we go to the teens tycoons in the first place. Simple...it was free telly! We need all the exposure we can get, when they first approached us they said the programme was about businesses that has been going a long time that had hit some problems due to unforeseen circumstances......perfect we thought, we can talk about how record sales have suffered under the realm of free illegal downloading, oddly enough, they were not the slightest bit interested in this factor, as you can see it is not even mentioned in the programme. What I think the teen tycoons didn't realise is that Pendragon is a sturdy beast that has been through good and bad, and survived for 30 years, I take responsibility for 99% of our troubles....one has to take responsibility for oneself, good or bad , ups and downs, it, I believe is the essence of life! I do however think Pendragon will still be churning out tunes long after those teen tycoons are dribbling away to themselves in an old people's home sucking on a digestive biscuit through a straw with a cup of milky tea! |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 11:39
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Wow, that's quite an insight Nick, sounds like a whole new programme there!
I did get the impression the content needed to be taken with a large pinch of salt, but it is reassuring to here first hand of the caricaturing which was taking place.
The most reassuring part of all though is your final paragraph.
PC, so you've finally come out of the closet and revealed your true identity. I had my suspicions you know...
 |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 15:15
| Hi Nick, a few months ago there was another Channel 4 show called 'Get Your Act Together' where Harvey Goldsmith took some supposedly flagging careers and tried to resurrect them. One show had NWOBHM legends Saxon. I didn't see the show (the finale of 'Life On Mars' was on..) but apparently, Saxon and their management were made to look utterly incompetent at the hands of Channel 4 as well. Apparently, Marillion were approached for this too but they turned it down... |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:08
You don't know what you're missing out on if you haven't heard it! There's plenty of albums I want that are out of print and I doubt in many cases, that they will get reprinted. Anglagard is one such example. -------------
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:14
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Yes, the OOP thing is something of a burden but yes, the best thing to do is to wait for a reprint. I often look at DVDs/CDs on EBay that are deleted/hard to find now and they tend to go for silly prices and I can't be doing with that... |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:41
Little point when most things eventually see the light of day again. I can wait. I have enough of a variety as it is, and never need to worry about that small handful of OOP/Never on CD that I am after
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 19 2007 at 22:21
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Thanks for taking the time and answering my question, Nick. Best of luck to you and the band. I thoroughly enjoy Pendragon's music and hope it endures. Also, I'll do my best in supporting the band, as I'm sure countless others from this site (and beyond) will, too. My personal favorites: Not Of This World Masquerade Overture Believe E -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 19 2007 at 23:04
I love The Window Of Life. Question: if you have the recently remastered version, do you hear static on yours? I do at the beginning and it's very noticeable. E -------------
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 19 2007 at 23:13
I already liked your music, but with this you've shown you understood what it's all about, it's about being honest to your fans, and that doesn't allow ripping them off, sometimes you have to give without taking or asking, loyalty will eventually bring in the hard earned and necessary pounds.love you
When can we expect your next album   ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 19 2007 at 23:21
I have the 'old' version, I didn't even know it was remastered yet  , there's no static on that version that i m aware off. I am intending to get the remastered version of The Masquerade though since it has incorporated the As Good As Gold single Ep, which I unfortunatly lost, such beauty lies bestowed in these songs------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: May 19 2007 at 23:47
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Here's my story of Pendragon. Until the beginning of last year I never heard of them. Then, through reading posts on this site, I learned that Pendragon exists and made a lot of records, and some are considered quite good. I downloaded two of these records from one of these Russian sites. I love the music. In september last year, I bought 2 tickets to see them live (Bunde, pRockFest, 15 November I think). I was so impressed with their performance that when I got home, I immediately ordered the DVD "And Now Everybody To The Stage". In January I bought a copy of the CD "The World" in a regular CD shop here in my home town. Recently I ordered "Neo", "The Window of Life", and "Not of this World" from Pendragon's own website.
What I want to say here is that the downloading of the CD's from the Russian site got me acquainted with the music of Pendragon, and I needed that to make me a "fan". If I didn't read about the music (1) and then downloaded those albums (2) (actually "Masquerade Overture" and "Window of Life") I would NEVER have gotten into their music. Now, in less than a year I allready spend a lot on their music and life performances. ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: Snakes & Arrows
Date Posted: May 20 2007 at 00:51
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I love Pendragon and I sure hope that this situation of greedy downloading can amend itself somehow ... If I was Nick I would make CD`s that join each song yet indexed as the next song digitally so that downloading each file sounds rough and rugged for the listener when put together as an mp3 album .. probably a silly idea but I know it ruins the audio effects when there's a 2 second gap between each song that should run smoothly to the next song unnoticed and downloads may want to upgrade to a retail version .... asap Also no advanced copies to anyone its a silly idea and that's where the trouble is starting (the enemy is within, trust nobody) I think Pendragon are amongst the worlds best Neo Prog band that's how I see things and they fully deserve their recognition and some rewards , so many great CD`s over the years anyway give Nick a handshake from me and tell him the CD "believe" helped me carry on in a time of life I thought I was not going to make it BTW I didn`t know who you were the other day progchic, now I do I`m stoked |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: May 20 2007 at 12:33
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I remember my first Pendragon experience. I ordered a Pendragon CD through Half.com, only to have some sort of irish celtish folk band by the same name arrive at my house. I bought the digipak Masquerade Overture a few months later and really was blown away by it. E -------------
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Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: May 20 2007 at 22:17
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How much would a band like Pendragon get from a single sale if I ordered off a site like Amazon or in a store? Is it less than if I ordered it from someone like Greg Walker (whom I have never heard of... can someone explain?)? Does this depend on whether the band is an RIAA-affiliate? I'm asking because I've always heard that artists get very little money from a CD sale; just seeing if that's true or not, especially since Nick Barrett said they get 9.28 from a Greg Walker sale. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: May 20 2007 at 23:12
Dang, now I'm feeling a bit guilty for purchasing secondhand!   But at least I don't download illegally (actually, even legally)- it's killing the album! But it's apparently the new business thing, so I'm up for whatever gives the artist more money. I just don't want a death knell for the CD- when I buy something, I like something to show for it, not just an arbitrary file on my computer. I must say though, it certainly helps when an artist makes sample songs or clips available. I am much more likely to purchase their music if I can at least get a feel for what they do. But I don't like hearing all or even most of it- takes the fun out of the first spin! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 21 2007 at 02:36
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[QUOTE=KeleCableII]How much would a band like Pendragon get from a single sale if I ordered off a site like Amazon or in a store? Is it less than if I ordered it from someone like Greg Walker (whom I have never heard of... can someone explain?)QUOTE]
I personally know a prog label owner/supplier in the UK. He used to sell to Amazon (not sure if he still does) and they would demand a HUGE discount becuase of their buying clout. Often they would insist on a price that would have wiped out all his profit. I expect, but have no proof of) that all large record companies behave in the same way. How else would you get new albums appearing on some of these larger sites at prices of £8,99 for a brand new album?
This certainly would seem to point towards the small and independent supplier returning more money to the artist. In fact, I am in no doubt of this.
As for Greg - not heard of him? What planet are you from? Take a look....
http://synphonic.8m.com/catalogs-prog.htm - http://synphonic.8m.com/catalogs-prog.htm
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 23 2007 at 22:36
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I only donwload what I cant buy, wheater it is too expensive or just plainly unreachable... it´s not the ideal way, but Im not gonna restrain myself to a lot of good music because of it
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: BoldmanUK
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 14:16
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Although this is an old topic, I thought I would contribute my point of view. First a little history: I first saw Pendragon in Queen Mary College Student Union, Mile End, London in hmmm must have been 1983 ish. I was very impressed - Nick wore a top hat, which I thought was his attempt to be Gabrielesque, however I liked the music and bought a cassette which had 3 tracks on it... early versions of "Victims of Life", "Insomnia" and "Armageddon". I still have it! I kept an eye open for Pendragon and found a "prog sampler" album called Fire in Harmony (or something like that) which had "Fly High, Fly Far" on it and soon after got the mini-album of the same name. I looked out for concerts and saw them again in London at... hmmm maybe Marquee? Then along came The Jewel and I was knocked sideways, loved it! Saw them again at the Astoria and I think I'm in the audience in 9:15 as it was those concerts that were recorded. All well and good, I was a dedicated Pendragon Fan. Then along came Kowtow. Oh My God! What is this appalling rubbish? I was utterly devastated. It was even worse that Abacab! Dreary, samey and just depressing. I listened to that record 2 or 3 times and have never played it again. It destroyed my trust in Pendragon music and I stopped looking for any more music. Sorry Nick, but you lost me because of that album. Fast forward 10 years or so and we have the internet and I discover this site and check up what Pendragon have been doing since I lost faith. Lots of live albums and stuff and a few studio albums. However, my trust having been betrayed by Kowtow, there is no way I'm going to risk my money (of which I have less of now than back then) and potentially get another Kowtow experience. So I'm afraid you can count me as one of those people who downloaded the Pendragon discography. I was, though, pleasantly surprised to discover that I liked a lot of the newer material. As a consequence I went out and bought: The Jewel (Remastered) Masquesrade Overture Window of Life The World So without that opportunity to sample Pendragon's musical output, I would never have parted with any cash. Nick didn't loose ANY money by me downloading the discography - I'd never have bought the albums anyway. The opposite happened, I actualyl went out and bought the CDs - because its GREAT to have something tangible in your hand you can put on the shelf and be happy you own. Having a downloaded album isn't the same. All that being said, I'm sorry to hear the financial difficulties Nick is facing - I've been there myself. However, quality music will sell, bad music will not. Because of a bad album, I stopped attending Pendragon concerts and spending any money supporting the band. Now though, because I could freely check out the newer material, you have got me spending my money to support your efforts again. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 07 2008 at 20:46
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^ A good anecdote. We should look at this issue in the long run, too. And not just have a download of an album be a "financial loss," and end it there. It could easily make no difference. For example: Hypothetically, I download "Ambient 1" by Brian Eno, love it and buy "Ambient" albums 2, 3 and 4. Had I not heard the first "Ambient" album, I might not have bought 2, 3, and 4. One could say that without my process, the artist would not have gained anything because I'd likely not have heard of the band. With my process, though the band did not get anything for "Ambient 1," but they would have gained the money from the 3 albums I subsequently bought. 3 albums versus 0 albums. But then again, there are many ways to find out if one likes an artist. The least efficient/productive way is to go by reviews or word of mouth without hearing the music at all. Artists have to face that their music will not be appreciated by everyone, and that one person blindly buying an album, disliking it, and not buying anything else is not a good thing. Gaining loyal fans, as long as not too many financial losses are incurred, is what matters. The only meaningful conclusion is a middle ground, where some downloads occur (the amount dependent on how available approved sources of the band's music samples are) and fans are gained and kept. Artists cannot and should not expect people to blindly buy their music without sampling it or hearing about it through promo sorts of deals (reviews, etc). That can work against the artist, too. I know I've put off buying Jethro Tull's debut for at least 3 years because it doesn't appeal to me much, from what I've heard in reviews. Should artists get angry at reviewers for depriving them a financial gain by influencing my purchasing opinions? ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 09 2008 at 10:25
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There are plenty of legal ways to hear music without illegally downloading it, and the flat truth is less than 1% of people that download it ever buy it. Internet radio is a great way to sample, the bands myspace page, the label page, amazon, etc. And to the question about what pays the band best. typically if you are on Amazon, you're going through several layers of resellers, which means the band probably gets about $4 for the CD. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |