"your white hands are all hennaed(*) " i asked "is there a wedding?"   (*)the girls make their hand hennaed in the fiestas,weddings in Turkey

from; http://psychefolk.com/TurkishProgressive.html - http://psychefolk.com/TurkishProgressive.html

..."YOKSULLUK KADER OLAMAZ" is the best rock and progressive album i have ever listened...

I also objected to "progressiveness" (not "greatness"!) of "Tamirci ciragi" mentioned above. I agree, it's a great track, emotionally, musically, and instrumentally, but absolutely not "prog" according to our definition!

In album basis, I praised Dervisan for giving credit to Erkin Koray's Elektronik Türküler and Mancho's 2023 & Yeni Bir Gün. But I do believe "the most progressive" band in Turkey happens to be Kurtalan Ekspres (Baris Mancho's backing band), at least for their '70's & early '80's stuff. This is mostly due to Mancho's genius as a multi-instrumentalist and arranger, as well as his uncanny ability to pick up young talents, who fit his musical style like a glove...

Again, I need to remind, I'm talking in technical terms here... It is totally arguable and arbitrary whether this band or that band is "the best". But in terms of defining prog, Mancho and his men made the most fitting music (although it was Cem Karaca who composed and recorded Safinaz, which is probably Turkey's sole prog-rock epic, stretching into one LP side! Baris Manco himself and strangely, another pop artist Alpay made multipart suites, but these do not exceed 12 minutes in length)

Aside from Baris's technical excellence, there are several factors which bring Cem Karaca to the fore. It's totally a matter of personal opinion to decide which one is better.

Dervisan, I appreciate your idea to write a Baris Mancho promotion . You can be sure I'll give you a helping hand on that one .

 

On May 20, 2007, the Symphonic Team added  all the bands in the master list were marked as Symphonic, Cem Karaca was in the Master List as Symphonic, even though it was clear for us they were not part of the sub-genre, we made the research, posted it and recommended them at least for Prog Related.

 

But as always, this work was forgotten and never followed:

 

Ivan_Melgar_M  on May 20, 2007 wrote:   Hello, as I promised to Tony R, the Symphonic Team had an addition rally, have searched in the master list (Including Proposed and disputed artists) and this is what we got:   As expected we required a couple of weeks  to research, being that some of them are prehistoric and/or totally obscure, so info wasn’t be easily available and samples much less   (...)   Cem Karaca: Another hard task, the guy is from Turkey, except for Allmusic (Not reliable at all) all the info is in Turkish and his lyrics are mostly in Ancient Anatolian. Cem Karaca was a prolific and polemic musician/Marxist politician who had an amazing live, even accused of treason because of his ideas and later received a pardon. For the samples I could find everywhere and the information available, he played some sort of Pop/Proggish ethnic music, not adequate for Symphonic at all, even made some Rap…In Anatolian!!!!…The Orchestral tracks are the less Prog (A paradox) sound like French Chanson in some weird language  but very mainstream I don’t dare to recommend him to Prog Folk, too mainstream IMHO, should be checked for Prog Related……According to Bob could be Avant Rio mostly for the lyrics BUT NO WAY SYMPHONIC…..Please provide us some info when receiving this obscure and rare artists, some samples can be found at: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU939609CV849 - http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU939609CV849 or in his Allmusic entry.     Guys, please, don't look at this thread and omit it, we have done a research that must be used, we are recommending some bands to some sub-genres and this is already verified, lets use what we found.   Tony R: We kept our word with you.   Bob, HT, James, Iván   http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38137&KW=Symphonic+Master - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38137&KW=Symphonic+Master

 

But as we guessed it was omited, nobody checked the list and most of the 12 bands already researched by us and posted in the list (Except the couple of Symphonic ones) hasn't been added.

 

Iván

I'm glad you've joined PA, I believe with your help bands from your country will be added sooner or later. The site will only win because of this.

Some questions to you (I could ask it in PM, but then I thought it can be interesting for others):

I definitely want to know more about Turkish prog and I'm planning to order some CDs. It seems to me Barış Manço's "2023" is essential.

1. What other Barış Manço's album(s) should I get first?

I just ordered "2023" and Cem Karaca "Safinaz" and found out that I should make a break (until I put money to my bill) .

he has got a nazilli concert record.. but this concert was recorded by nihat örerel (drummer) so he has recorded it to listen his drum so it s really ununderstandable..there is a lot of drum voice but good .. you cant find it everywhere... maybe you can find rapid.. i have got...

 

It was not a proper rejection Logan,

 

Tony asked the teams to check the Master List and clean all the bands that had your team's name,  in this case it was written:

 

 

We took 12 bands, checked one by one (I believe only 2 or 3 were Symphonic) added this 2 or 3, made a recommendation for each band that we had checked and notified the teams one by one, also sent a copy to a couple of Adms because we had promissed Tony to clean our part.

 

But the urgent is enemy of the necessary, we couldn't follow the fate of all bands because we had to do our job.

 

Now, in the case of Cem Karaca, even when I respect Bob's (Clem) opinion, I saw no Rio-Avant at all, Ht and me saw more a great  Ethnic artist with some Prog influenced and  Psyche works plus a good number of Folk but non Prog and some sort of Chanson ones that in our opinion suited best for Prog Related.

 

On those days we took the time to find as many samples, full songs and even a couple of complete albums if we could, because HT is a neurotic obsessive  who can''t stop investigating when he finds a new artist and I'm another one.

 

Iván

 

 

 

Don't be offended Dervisan, I'm not an expert in Turkish Progressive Rock, but I remember last year while researching with the team, our first impression was Prog Folk, but we found a lot of information and samples that lead to Prog related more than to a full Prog artist as you well say in your first lines.

I didn't judged him as Symphonic, I received a list in which he was mentioned as a Symphonic artist, but a listen to his music was enough to notice he wasn't Symphonic, so we started to search (As we always do), in which sub-genre he could fit best, despite the fact that as a Symphonic Team, it wasn't our duty.

Of course I don't get a word in Anatolian, so I can't say if it's a joke or whatever but I know what is rap, and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-De7LkyFmU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-De7LkyFmU is Rap and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTA6vzGoTyM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTA6vzGoTyM is close to French Chanson more than to Prog Folk or this to some sort of techno Folk pop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejju6-mZtNY&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejju6-mZtNY&feature=related .

This for example is poetry in the style of Charles Aznavour mweets Cat Stevens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtGpYYyGOkI&NR=1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtGpYYyGOkI&NR=1

As a fact one of his biographies says clearly that he played some Prog and a lot of other things:

 

He was the only child of İrma Felekyan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toto_Karaca&action=edit&redlink=1 - Toto Karaca ) of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Turkey - Armenian origin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_Karaca#cite_note-0 - [1] , a popular opera, theatre and movie actress, and Mehmet İbrahim Karaca of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri - Azeri origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_Karaca#cite_note-aksiyon040216-1 - [2] His first group was called Dynamites and was a classic rock cover band. Later he joined Jaguars, an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley - Elvis Presley cover band. In 1967, he started to write his own music, forming the band Apaşlar (Apachees), his first http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language - Turkish-language group. In 1969, Karaca and bass-player Serhan Karabay left Apaşlar and started an original Anatolian group called Kardaşlar (Brothers). In 1972, Karaca joined the group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C4%9Follar - Moğollar (Mongols) and wrote one of his best-known songs, "Namus Belası". However, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cahit_Berkay&action=edit&redlink=1 - Cahit Berkay , the leader of Moğollar, wanted an international name for his band, and he left for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France - France to take the group to another level. Karaca, who wanted to continue his Anatolian beat sound, left Moğollar and started his own band Dervişan (Dervishes) in 1974. Karaca and Dervişan sang poetic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock - progressive songs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_Karaca - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cem_Karaca

 

Seems clear he wrote not only Prog material.

I haven't mentioned other artists of your country, because I'm absolutely non familiar with them, but for what I heard of Cem Karaca he has some Prog related material and a lot of non Prog material, so IMO the best place for him is Prog Related, and if you notice, I was the first one to recommend his inclusion on Prog Archives a year ago in the Prog Related category.

Good luck Dervisan, but as always I will keep giving my opinion even with a much more limited knowledge of this particular artist than you, because even when I heard much less, what I heard, haven't impressed me as Prog, and categorizing his poetry and style to only Prog, would be limiting is essence of Poet, Bard and Classic Rock icon in Turkey.

Iván

 

 

Now, I know there's not a language defined as Anatolian, but not being a linguist, I have to believe what i read, because to be honest I don't understand a word of what Cem Karaca sings, so if the people who know him best say he sung some tracks in Ancient Anatolian language, I have to believe them, but at the end doesn't matter too much, because what brings us here is the music in whatever language it is sung, or even if it doesn't have words.

 

Now, Dervisan and you affirm the Rap track is some form of sarcasm, most surely is true, because I must say again, the language barrier doesn't allow me to know what he's saying, I just talked about what I heard,. and joke or not, it's a rap, that's the only thing I was saying.

 

Still, for what i heard, I don't believe he's a full Prog artist, but this doesn't mean I don't consider him a great artist, I haven't spoke a single word that doesn't show respect for him, but if you add

 

Iván

 

That's the central point Bilek, we both are concious of the limits of this case, he could well go to Folk (The second best option after PR IMHO), go to Crossover (I see him much closer to Folk and PR, because the POP element is not as preeminent as the Ethnic one), Prog Related or simply not be added (What I believe would be unfair).

 

Cerm Karaca is the kind of artists that creates more problems because the almost imposibility to have a complete view of his career if you don't live in Turkey, I tremember a similar case with Abbhama, they are an Indonesian band with one album released in cassette around 1979, it was so hard to accept them because for people outside the region, the infrormation and access to their music was very hard, until their album was released again by a Japanese label.

 

In the case of Cem Karaca, is even harder, because having an extense discograph, that crossed so many eras and in a different time reference (As you say, they were doing Proto when the rest of the world was already in full Prog), is very hard to have a real idea of his whole career. 

 

In any of the cases, it won't hurt Prog Archives or the name of the artist.

 

Cheers

 

Iván

 

BTW: Santana? I was always in favour of Santana, just not in Jazz Rock Fusion, I feel his contribution to Psyche and even to Folk is much more imprtant.

 

The point is that Santana is here, and that's enough for me.

 

But again, dioscussions even when ugly (Despite I'm sure I never disrespected anybody, because that's not my style), are necessary, if not....What's the point of comming to a DISCUSSION FORUM?

 

Iván

 

 

 

Dervisan, I have added more than 100 artists and wrote more than 250 biographies for this site on artists I hardly knew before, so don't tell me I don't like to research, I love to research, I do it daily, I checked all the links you provided one by one.

We cleaned 519 Symphonic bands searching one by one, also about 50 or 60 Neo Prog bands (I alone), we receive an average of 10 bands a month that each member of the group researches

In my real work, I'm a lawyer, and research is a good percentage of my work.

I heard all the links you provided and IMHO Cem Karaca is hardly Prog Related.

 

 

 

I knew this thread was around, but only just bothered looking into it:

 

This thread is hilarious!

 

And I thought I was being obnoxious mentioning Tori Amos where I could drop the hint, but this takes the biscuit.

 

The word 'pushy' is what comes to mind.      

 

It's just my personal impression after listening to the links. Sorry, but I can't change my impressions just to please anyone.

 

I stand by what I said. If you can point me to a link that shows me some prog or prog-related material, I'll be happy to re-evaluate.

 

Couldn't you just post one or two links (maximum,) presenting his most prog-like work as an anchor, and I could work myself through others from there.

 

Bilginize

Post in English only please. Thank You

 

Settle down Bilek?

 

I'm just giving my honest opinion after listening carefuly the music Dervisan sent.

 

You can't expect 100% of support, especially inm such a borderline case as Cem Karaca, but at least replies from people who has heard the albums.

 

I don't believe Cem Karaca should be here except in Prog Related.

 

You are taking it too personal, if you propose a band, all you can expect is an honest reply, i won't say he's Prog bercause IMHO he isn't, again, barely Prog Related..

 

Iván

 

Please don't disrespect me, I never speak without listening first.

 

I listened each and every link you provided, giving an opinion without having heard your links, would be a disrespect for the site, you and for me.

 

You say you worked hard to add the links of an artist you want to add, many of us worked four years adding hundreds of bands others provided, with absolutely no special interest for the artist,, being that in some cases we didn't even knew them before the suggestion 

 

You are a newbie, so you don't know me, I may discuss and debate, but in four years here, I have never done it without a previous and careful research, maybe you talk because you are able discuss without knowing, I can't, that would be silly and futile.

 

Heard his nmusic and all your links, researched obn other places but still think he's barely related.

 

Iván

 

PS: I won't stop speaking for you or for anybody.

 

You want an honest answer?

 

It's a very simple Folkish track witrh heavy Rock fugues, but mainly is one chorus repeated several times, the keyboard sounds very Psyche oriented with some Deep Purple reminiscences (seems like a copy of the organ sections of BURN in some passages), but at the most Prog Related IMHO.

 

This doesn't mean i don't like the track, it's very catchy, but not remotely Prog.

 

Even if it was a Prog track (which is not in my opinion), you judge an artist by a career, anmd in his 40 years seems he diidn't recorded a single 100% Prog album, so it's place IMO is Prog Related as i said a couple years ago.

 

Iván

 

BTW; King Crimson is 41 years old and is Prog in every release, The Rolling Stiones are not Prog (maybe related in Their Satanic majesties Request)and much older, The Who also 44 or 45 years old and only 2 related albums, so being long time obn the spot, doesn't make an artist Prog.

 

BTW II: Don't worry, i don't feel offended by your words.

 

 

 

That's not the answer Dervisan.

 

When I joined my first Prog Forum back in the late 90's, i knew about 20 or 30 bands, and thought I was an expert.

 

Today I know about 800, and i'm convinced I know very little, because there's so much Prog out there.

 

So if you think you don''t know a lot of Prog, no problem, you are still young I guess, and you have time to learn a lot, and Prog Archives is the best place.

 

Iván

 

I believe other teams have the responsability of deciding here, Prog Related and maybe the Prog Folk Team, but that's their call.

 

I only give my opinion.

 

Iván

 

 

I'm not an expert in Turkish Prog or Turkish Folk, but I have an idea of what is Prog and what is not,  and you asked my opinion

Dervisan wrote: say me what is this ivan? only a simple song??

 

I answered, but you don't like the answer so you kick the board and become aggressive, if you don't want to learn from me, it's your problem, I'm learning a lot from you.

 

Now, I'm not the one who said you know nothing about Prog, you said it.:

 

Dervisan wrote: sorry but if you can say cem karaca-dervisan and cem karaca-edirdahan bands havent done prog rock and if it s true i will never listen prog rock again... because i dont know anything about this music...

 

 

I don't know you, much less your knowledge, and I never give opinions about what i don't know,

 

I believe you misunderstood my posts, until know I showed nothing but respect for Cem Karaca's music, but i don'tt believe he's a 100% Prog artist, and that's my honest opinion.

 

Some collaborators recieve insults, and aggessions, but they go on, you have received only polite but honest replies, simply you haven't received the replies you wanted and that pisses you.

 

You say you are here to promote YOUR COUNTRY'S MUSIC, we are all here to promote Prog from every country, If I cared only about my country  bands, what a loss of time it would be, if one is accepted, great, if not, also great.

 

At the end neither you or me will decide anything about Cem Karaca being added, this is a discussion forum and I only give opinions because I'm entitled to give them, other teams will decide

 

I hope he's accepted in Prog Related, because long before you came i was asking for his addition to PR,

 

Ivan_MelgarM on May 20 2007 at 00:24 wrote: Cem Karaca: Another hard task, the guy is from Turkey, except for Allmusic (Not reliable at all) all the info is in Turkish and his lyrics are mostly in Ancient Anatolian. Cem Karaca was a prolific and polemic musician/Marxist politician who had an amazing live, even accused of treason because of his ideas and later received a pardon. For the samples I could find everywhere and the information available, he played some sort of Pop/Proggish ethnic music, not adequate for Symphonic at all, even made some Rap…In Anatolian!!!!…The Orchestral tracks are the less Prog (A paradox) sound like French Chanson in some weird language  but very mainstream I don’t dare to recommend him to Prog Folk, too mainstream IMHO, should be checked for Prog Related……According to Bob could be Avant Rio mostly for the lyrics BUT NO WAY SYMPHONIC…..   http://www.progarchives.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38137&KW=master+list - http://www.progarchives.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38137&KW=master+list

 

And still believe that where he should be along with many great artists who are not 100% Prog, and if he's accepted by any team, I will respect their opinion even if i don't share it.

 

Iván

I will discuss this with Bilek. Bilek is working on adding one Anatonlian Rock artist to Psyche/Space Rock we are undecided about the others. I recomend you leave this with us and post no more samples and links as we are now overloaded - you have presented us with enough information to make a decision.

 

I feel that the subject needs better coverage within Prog Archives although the development from 1960s Psyche Rock did not follow the same path as English, German and American pscyhe into what is defined as Progressive Rock. We will resolve this in someway - I just don't know how at the moment.

 

I know you are passionate about this but I must ask you to be less forceful with the Collaborators - we are all volunteers here and do this because we want to, not because we have to.