Capital Punishment: For or Against?
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Topic: Capital Punishment: For or Against?
Posted By: The Pessimist
Subject: Capital Punishment: For or Against?
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:24
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A very sensitive subject, and one that really splits society down the middle. On one hand you have the people that either value human life too much, think it's too much of a risk that you will get it wrong and/or believe it's not an effective deterrent. On the other you have the ones that believe it is morally correct to take certain criminals lives, appreciate prisons are over-crowded and/or think criminals shouldn't be allowed to repeat certain crimes. Both pretty valid opinions, however I am more drawn to the former. Where do you stand? ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Replies:
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:26
| As much as I deteste many criminals for their acts, I cannot sanction the state to kill. Simple as that. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:35
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I used to be for it, but http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann - now I am not so sure . ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:43
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well I would never "stand by" something like the death penalty or put any real hope or faith in it, however I don't begrudge those who support it and would never want to be in the shoes of a crime victim's loved ones |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:49
Arguing against capital punishment on the basis of killing an innocent person does not an argument against capital punishment make. One can argue against punishment period on that basis. What it does is question how good a judicial system is. I have absolutely zero qualms against capital punishment. What I do have a problem with is life in prison. Why should a convicted murderer live a better life than a child whose father lost his home due to being laid off (theoretically)? I find a lot of the liberal talking points against capital punishment come from those who espouse utilitarian "solutions" for other problems (like health care). Very well. If we are going to imprison criminals for life (or at all, really), ensure they put in to the society they take from. Folks in prison do not pay a debt to society at all- they ultimately rob society even further. Let them truly pay a debt to society. Otherwise, if the crime warrants it, get rid of them. Publicly. So it's a deterrent like it used to be. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Henry Plainview wrote:Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:03
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Not so, Rob, because no justice system can ever be perfect, and you can undo a life sentence by letting someone out of jail. You can't undo death, and I can't tolerate a single innocent person being killed. In fact, I believe the Supreme Court said that innocent people have never been killed, but if one were that would be cause to rethink it. It is entirely possible I made that last sentence up.
Also, one could say that the problem with your scenario is not how society treats criminals, but how it treats the unemployed. ;-)
I would not have a problem with convicted criminals doing labor as long as their working conditions were the same as a normal person. The problem, I suppose, is that it wouldn't stay that way because there are people like Sheriff Joe around. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:19
You cannot undo a life sentence if a man has spent a year in jail, Henry. What do you propose the state does? Give the man his year back? And regarding laboring criminals, you are (again) disputing the implementation of things rather than how things should be. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:32
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For any crime for which the death penalty could be given, perhaps complete banishment from society would be a good solution.
That is, if there was anyplace on this freaking world untouched by society....
I have conflicted views regarding personal vengeance. I suppose that translates to governmental vengeance too. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:39
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No, you can't give him his year back, but you can give him some money as an apology, and isn't being able to undo part of it far superior to not being able undo any of it? The implementation of things is important because you have to take into account flawed/evil human beings. See: communism.
Banishing people seems like asking for trouble. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:48
I'm not sure any amount of money could serve as a recompense for the missed years of my family's company were I wrongfully convicted. In that light...I consider our soldiers...but at least they are noble. And Henry, if you want to take into consideration the implementation of things because we must "take into account flawed/evil human beings," then we may as well erupt into utter anarchy. Oh wait. Edit: Basically, we didn't throw out having a President because Presidents have let us down. We have ideals, and state them, and deal with the inevitable bullsh*t as it comes up. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:53
| I am against capital punishment, although a life sentence is as good as death anyway. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:03
Unless you are the one paying for it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:33
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But Rob there's a difference between how easy it is to abuse something. There is only one President, but there are many wardens who could potentially get away with something if we start leaving loopholes. There's a reason we don't do forced labor anymore, but we still have a President.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:41
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Despite my being a hard line liberal, more or less down the line, I used to support the death penalty. Now, well...I don't know. I used to think of it as simply as, if you kill someone the only punishment worthy of taking a life is losing yours. As I got older it became alot more complicated than that. From a lot of different angles. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:42
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I don't trust the State with taxing it citizens let alone killing them, although it is adept at both. Regardless of innocent people being executed or not, I don't believe it to be moral or within the realm of powers that should be given to the State. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:23
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I'm quite confused on this matter and don't have a clear answer. Though I tend to favor the abolition of death penalty, I sometimes think it is necessary. There are people who will just not change, ever. And whose contributions to society can only be chaos and death. On this matter, I just don't know. ------------- 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:30
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As a general rule, I am a bleeding heart liberal, and thus against the death penalty, for many of the reasons against the death penalty stated above. However, I did have no issue with the recent execution of the D.C. sniper. ------------- 
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:35
While your statement speaks to my libertarian sensibilities I still say, "hang em' all". Theoretically it is still a jury of your peers that condemns you while the state acts as executioner. The problem, as my cold icy heart, sees it is that: the modern legal system is extremely inefficient and expensive. Throw out the chair, injections, gas, and whatever else there is out there; rope is still very cost effective.
On a side note: I never thought I'd seen the day Henry went soft. What if I there were a death by bowling pin option? -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 01:18
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If you could arrive at a law enforcement system that was 100% efficient and was immune from corruption the capital punishment debate would be a no-brainer. As the requirements for the foregoing are about as likely as Attila the Hun receiving a posthumous nomination for a Nobel Peace Prize, you gotta vote 'No'
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 02:22
Definitely not an easy one - there have been so many mis-carriages of justice in my living memory which pre abolition would have led to the death penalty; the Birmingham six spring to mind as an example - jailed in 1975 for the Birmingham pub bombings & released as innocent men in 1991; these men would have been hanged a decade earlier  Problem is, there are so many crimes you see perpetrated where guilt is 100% proven, part of my brain tends toward acceptance of the death penalty, though not publicly; that just smacks of revenge, not justice. As I say, not an easy one  -------------  Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 03:29
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I disagree with death penalties, and even more with appeal systems - in the USA people spend years on death row awaiting the result of pending appeal system judgements.
Life imprisonment should mean life - not just an 18 year sentence reduced to 4 for good behaviour ("well we'll let him out he hasn't killed / raped / sexually abused anyone while he's been here) .
Community Service orders of 250 - 500 hours should be given out for lesser crimes such as Tax evasion, damaging / stealing property or fraud, but sex criminals or muderers should be given 35 / 50 year sentences - if they are off the street the public is safe from them...simple
 -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 03:56
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Against. I don't think that any judge should have the right to decide about human life, not even of someone who is proved guilty of murder. Whether capital punishment is practised or not might be a major indicator for a nation's standard of civilization. ------------- 
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 04:01
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No - I think Capital Punishment tends to make martyrs of criminals and/or in many cases the condemed die an easy death compared to their victims if murder was the crime. I think the old adage of "Lock 'em up and throw away the key" is more appropriate ie: Life should be life with no parole. The punishment would then be translated into a life long suffering of the consequences of criminal actions. Death does not deem to be an appropriate punishment. A Life behind bars without freedom is.
-------------  "Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 04:06
| I'm against it, even though I know there are no easy answers. |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 04:10
I agree more than 100% with what you've said. I mean, I'd find it more frightening as (random example) a 30 year old murderer to have to spend every single day of my life until I die in a jail cell than have everything over rather painlessly and near instantly. ------------- 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 05:01
The same for me.
Cruel punishments create cruel criminals and as a consequence an unpleasant society for us all. Life in Denmark means 16 years to life ( the longest serving convict in modern time in Denmark sat in prison for 33 years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palle_S%C3%B8rensen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palle_S%C3%B8rensen )) and while I understand this seems like a very soft punishment to some people, we actually believe in giving criminals a second chance, which in turn also means that we donīt have many really unpleasant criminals in our country. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 05:34
| Erm... Capital Punishment: For or Against. Would 'yes' mean: Yes, I'm for it, or yes, I'm against it? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 05:43
^ I was thinking the same thing based on the poll title, but the question heading up the thread clarifies things.  For the most part no. Reason one: usually given out to people in this country based on their wealth, if you have enough money you can commit a capital crime and ultimately not face the ultimate penalty. Reason two: if someone is wrongly convicted and executed you can't give them their life back, if you lock them up and evidence comes forward later that exonerates them, you can at least set them free. Reason three: being locked up for the rest of your miserable life may be harsher punishment anyway. By the way, when someone is convicted on multiple counts and sentenced to a longer term than their life expectancy, shouldn't the corpse be kept behind bars until the full sentence is served?  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 06:04
Says whom? I could point out a dozen things wrong with that statement. I'll stick with this: Executing somebody could cost more than a life sentence, if say the convicted felon was 98 years old. You actually believe the cost of an execution exceeds the cost of housing and feeding someone who gets life in prison at age 21? Also, people who quote how much it costs to execute people for the sake of creating shock value are adding in imprisonment costs, investigations, and perhaps most expensively, the cost of appeals not the cost of an execution itself. Again Henry- you are arguing against the procedure, not against the idea. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 06:20
You did not just use "execute" and "shock value" in the same sentence. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Diaby
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 09:34
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I'm for it. However, only for the most serious crimes. The incident has to be investigated very carefully, and if the police have enough proofs, a dangerous criminal really should have his/her life taken away. Some may say, it has no retentiveness. I say, it does have. Look at the Middle Age.
------------- yeah |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 10:05
Sorry but no, It doesn't have to be an indicator for a nation standard of civilization... Talk to whoever sociologyist or anthropologyst and they can explain you very easily that "civilization" is a relative topic deppending of the differents points of view...
Now, the capital punishment has been practice since the beggining of mankind... now is relative to those countries who considered themselves the example of civilization and pression the "so primitive" countries that still support it... I mean, maybe in your country a killer get better in jail, maybe, but in most of the poor countries the jails are almost school to kill and steal... so basacilly in Latin America and Asia and Africa, that means that a thief goes to jail to recieve examples of how to kill, he has a very quiet life paid by the people and then go out and he is not a thief anymore, he became a murderer...
So, Capital punishment is meant to separate people who have become a threat to society... and no, it's not more expensive... I support the capital punishment but only when judges and laws are clear and respected... that's the problem in most of the nations... the respect of law... ------------- |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 10:29
Attention to detail my friend. I think Slarti has already explained. Now for my views on the subject: - For one thing - and this is very important - I do believe people can change. I have changed myself over the years through chemical turbulences in my body, my father has changed a hell of a lot for his family and I can name a good few people (junkies included) that have completely turned their lives around. So I think, even if someone has such a strong personality disorder that they are capable of killing another human, that even the strongest willed serial killers can change. If people have beaten addiction, cancer and mental illness, then they can beat the urge to kill. - There is also the criminal mind to consider. A very delicate subject, and it is often considered taboo to justify their killings, but let's look at Jeffrey Dahmer for a minute. If anyone has read up about him (I have, criminal psychology has always been something I'm interested in), you will know he had urges to have sex with dead teenage boys since he was very young. Not exactly outright, but a few strange incidents have led people to believe that, and he himself has stated it's been a childhood thing. He faught those urges until his first killing at the age of 18. Does this indicate that he was trying to be normal? Studies have hypothesised that this particularly desperate resistance against his urges drove him mad, and the killing was in fact a product of his madness. Ultimately, the point is that it is possible that serial killers such as Dahmer were simply born with a bad hand, and just the same as being straight is imbedded into our hormones and being gay likewise, serial killers' urges are in fact uncontrollable in the sense that we are all sexually attracted to other human beings. And for that reason I wouldn't comfortable killing someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, simply because his actions may be psychologically justifiable. - Now I know in theory capital punishment will never make a mistake and the people that "deserve" it will always be treated appropriately and innocent people let to live on their own terms. However, life cannot be analysed by theories. Social and law related issues can be written down in a scientific and definite way, however the practicallities of it are a completely different kettle of fish. Governments will always make mistakes because no matter how powerful they are, they are governed by human beings, and we have reputation for making mistakes. - Also, it is not a proven deterrent in today's society. There are still terrorists, serial killers, rapists and child molesterers walking the street today, and there is absolutely nothing stopping them. In fact, these people's morals are so clouded over, I doubt they can even see the consequences, let alone be deterred by them. Even in countries that do operate a capital punishment scheme. - Now for a personal view. If, god forbid it, someone came in cold blood and burnt my house down, my car, raped my mother, tortured my father, killed them both and slaughtered my dog, leaving me with burns for the rest of my life and nowhere to go and my loved ones no more, I think the death penalty would be going easy on them. I would like to see them chastised and tortured for the rest of their life. Call me sick, but that is the only real amount of pain that would be nearly justice for what I would suffer. I know this juxtaposes a couple of my points, but it doesn't juztapose my outright view at all. So all in all, I am against capital punishment. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 11:01
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I'm all for the crucifixion of enemies of the state/ establishment, and society. It doesn't matter to me if the person is seen as a murderer, a traitor, a thief, a drug dealer, a heretic, or a malcontent, they should all be nailed and/or burned at the stake. But seriously, I'm against capital punishment and execution generally for various reasons. I do not think that the state should have such power (or give juries that power). Not only have there been various cases where the evidence points to convicted murdered not having committed the crimes they've been accused of, but I personally find it morally repugnant. Additionally, once a society or state condones killing for certain crimes (say murder), it becomes more difficult to condemn it for other crimes. Around the world, capital punishment is used for various "crimes" -- including being a "traitor" -- treason/ sedition. I find it simpler not to sanction execution at all. It's been done before, and I believe that someone can still be executed for treason in the US. To me that's very scary and creates a conflict of interest. To cite a famous case: Do people here think it was just for Ethel and Julius Rosenberg to be executed? It also saddens me because of the effect it had on their children (and in other cases, the effect on the executed one's family). EDIT: Oh, and call me evil, but despite Saddam's atrocities, I felt so sorry/sad when he was executed. Execution does seem barbaric to me. We all have to die sometime... Maybe I do value the sanctity of life too much. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 12:28
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Yes Rob, I was counting appeals, but I was under the impression that people on death row appeal more than lifers, which is why it costs more. I was just pointing out that executing people to save money (which I think is a terrible reason) is a false reason because we're always going to have appeals. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty - There's plenty of evidence to suggest that this is true. While I'm not a great fan of John Paul II, he said that execution is only necessary to protect society, and I don't think it's necessary anymore. That is not to say I was sad when Saddam and the DC sniper were executed, but if we had let them live maybe they would have repented. However, I can say with absolute certainty that public executions would be barbaric. Someone's death should not be a spectacle.
It absolutely does. Do you think you have a greater capacity for pain than the relatives of the victims of Jeffrey Dahmer? If not, then why should your criminal be tortured for life, which is even more cruel than the death penalty, and Jeffrey get off scot free? If you let your responses to legal codes be governed by emotion then we might as well be a society of vigilantes. But we're not, so we don't appoint victims to be the judge and jury of their attacker. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 12:33
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Saddam deserved to be kept alive and endlessly tortured for the remainder of his life. He should have been injected with one of his chemicals and forced to slowly die from some painful and debillitating disease while all the while receiving a daily session on the Iron Maiden and maybe some Chinese Water Torture. -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 12:45
This. The death penalty in the US does not seem to be an actual penalty anymore. The executioners are actually making sure the convict suffers as little as possible! In that way they're gentler than some doctors. I'm willing to bet the average law-abiding citizen dies a far more torturous death in hospital. Gone are the days when people would turn pale at the bare mention of any one of the countless 'creative' methods of execution. And rightly so. I don't want them back. Yes, life imprisonment should mean imprisonment for life. Though again, if a prison is just a mandatory hotel, that's no punishment either. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 12:58
I agree, vengeance does not equal justice. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 13:07
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you've got millions and millions of prisoners who are never going to be released for their heinous crimes against society, or they'll be released and reoffend. I think it can't be used unless it's an extreme situation - but there are a lot of those. I'm for it, when it's used without abuse. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 13:12
Now this is where I thought a lot of people would grab the wrong end of the stick. I think most people would want vengeance in the harshest form possible if someone inflicted that sort of pain on them. Therefore, I think the death penalty would go against the majority vote indirectlyif you see where I am coming from. the Jeffrey Dahmer incident that I brought up was from a pure logical and moral perspective, i.e. from an inhuman perspective. The last point was from a majoritive heart-felt perspective. Both reasons disagree with capital punishment, so I think they did their job. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 14:54
Not really sure you could do that more than once or a few times without dying from gaping holes all over your body. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 15:12
Well then every other day they could have just forced him to listen to the Dance of Death album really, really loud and nonstop. -------------
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Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 17:16
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I'll come back to this thread and read the posts some other time then respond to posts I agree or disagree with directly. If I were to generalize my political standing I'd consider myself somewhere between a liberal and a libertarian. That said, I am all for the death penalty. I also think it should be handed out far more often than it is. One first degree murder is easily enough of a crime to warrant a death sentence. Then other violent crimes can add up to a death sentence. ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 17:25
| I think every executioner should be sentenced to death for murder. |
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 22:24
He wasnt referring to the cost of the actual execution itself I suspect, but to the legal costs of executing someone. People on death row, especially leading up to their death, will file a ridiculous amount of legal actions just to try to delay the execution and very often it works. The legal system has to pay very close attention to all of these appeals because they certainly dont want to execute someone who shouldnt be, and we waste a lot of legal resources dealing with it. I believe this is the cost he war referring to |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 23:00
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The death penalty as in now functions in the US is not effective.
There are two arguments for the death penalty.
1. Ridding society of member who are so dangerous as no other options are realistic (I personally believe such individuals exist, but I am pessimistic about society's ability to identify and / or discrimate them from other persons)
2. As a deterrent for perpetrators of serious crime.
Both are predicated on a relatively decisive and swift judicial system which we don't have. Until we do, I oppose the death penalty. When we do, I will re-evaluate my position. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Luke. J
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 05:05
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To clarify my position at first: I am against capital punishment in whatever case there might be. Whatever someone has done nor what he might do in the future in my opinion does not justify taking his life. And I have to say that some arguments in favour of capital punishment shocked me, really.. "Life-long imprisonment costs to much!" - And because someone costs you money you may kill him? "Life-long imprisonment is not better than death!" - Do they know what death is like? And, once more repeated, does the mentioned assumption justify killing somebody? "They can not be integrated into society!" - So just get rid of them? "They will commit crimes again!" - Do you know? And even if so, would you kill somebody just because he might commit a crime? "Only the revenge is just!" - What is the use of revenge? Satisfaction that a life was taken away, some might say. But I cannot understand how it can satisfy people to have other people killed. "He killed/raped/whatever a relative/friend of mine!" And you want to kill the relative and friend of others because of that? By the way, how can anyone valuate revenge over a life? Punishment should be educational. People shall be taught not to commit crimes again. The dead clearly won't, but they will commit nothing, as they are not alive anymore. In order to save possible victims of crime I would educate the criminal to social behaviour rather than create another victim of crime by "just" taking his life.. Really, there is so much about this discussion I can not understand, least of all how people can valuate a human life or can take all its value away by saying "but he murdered". Maybe he did, maybe he will again. But just because of that I won't. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 06:36
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That's why I love liberal ideology on this subject...those poor, poor criminals! Society is required to use their resources to rehabilitate them! But I feel like a bit of fun this morning, so "Life-long imprisonment costs to much!" - And because someone costs you money you may kill him? Why should the innocent pay to feed, clothe, and house someone who would readily murder them to take those things? "Life-long imprisonment is not better than death!" - Do they know what death is like? And, once more repeated, does the mentioned assumption justify killing somebody? I am not sure why you worded the statement this way. Anyway, to answer the latter question, it again depends on ones ideology. Lots of people believe in euthanasia, you know. "They can not be integrated into society!" - So just get rid of them? Yes. Society shouldn't have to put up with murderous, raping a****les. "They will commit crimes again!" - Do you know? And even if so, would you kill somebody just because he might commit a crime? That's for a judge to determine. And would I kill somebody because he might commit a crime? Damn skippy I would. Let a fellow come into my home late a night with a weapon. I don't know whether he will commit a crime or not. But I won't wait to find out. "Only the revenge is just!" - What is the use of revenge? Satisfaction that a life was taken away, some might say. But I cannot understand how it can satisfy people to have other people killed. Then what, pray tell, is the point of punishing criminals at all? Just let them go, because judicial revenge is bad! "He killed/raped/whatever a relative/friend of mine!" And you want to kill the relative and friend of others because of that? By the way, how can anyone valuate revenge over a life? It's quite simple really (and I would hate to presume an intelligent person like you fails to understand a very clear moral and historical difference between "killing" and "murder")- once a person is convicted of murdering someone else, his own life is forfeit. He has lost the right to liberty (he will go to prison), the pursuit of happiness (the penal system severely limits what a man can do), and life (because he failed to recognize the right of others to life). So in summary, I despise a system of government that coddles rapists and murders; unless there is mitigating circumstances that a judge can assimilate into his judgment, these scumbags should be removed from society rather swiftly. We need to do everything we can as a society to show people that rape and murder are wrong- not tolerated. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 06:42
I'd say there are more arguments for the death penalty, but I'd say your criticism of how the death penalty functions is quite accurate for the US. I'd argue our judicial system as a whole is not cost effective or efficient (and never mind that the media latches on to and makes a superstar out of one criminal you will hear about for the next two years). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 06:53
I know a threat when I see one. By the way, if you were in favor of punishing a capital, which capital would you punish? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 07:10
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I'm absolutely against the death penalty. I do believe that those who transgress against society's codes should be punished - although rehabilitation should also be an aim - but all other arguments aside there have been too many miscarriages of justice for the death penalty to be an ethically sustainable option.
Also, and NOT with reference to any individual who has posted on this thread, I find it odd that - broadly speaking - those who believe that the state has no right to run health care, education or public utilities, and who are anti taxation and 'big government', also believe that the state has the right to execute its own citizens. I mean, if the government can't be trusted to prescribe pennicillin or set bus fares, how can they be trusted in matters of life or death? ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 07:13
 !------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 10:36
Keeping someone on death row for 26 years before killing them strikes me as something more than cost effectiveness or judicial efficiency is involved here, however I am not fully conversant with the entire history of one specific case, nor with even the slightest knowledge of the hundreds of unreported cases - what gets reported over here are the notable, high profile cases. (However, I can not see hoe that makes a "superstar" out of any criminal on death row given that the only possible outcome is either death or life in prison)
Given that many (many) countries have successfully abolished Capital Punishment without detrimental effect on crime statistics and without society descending into total anarchy suggests that all arguments for retaining or reinstating the death penalty are unjustified.
While Europe and the Americas have prohibited Capital Punishment on Human Rights grounds (Protocol 13 of European Convention of Humand Rights and Protocol 2 of The American Convention of Human Rights) this is really only a Human Rights issue in nations that have little or no regard for basic Human Rights (it should be noted that China is still top of the "leader board" on state excecutions, followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea).
So,No - I'm not in favour of the death penalty, nor for its reinstatement in the UK.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 11:06
Let's put it this way. I some homocidal maniac kills one of my loved ones either the state executes him or I do. In Canada our laws are just too soft. Come to think of it death is too good. Way too good. If it were up to me I'd bring back the gulags or Devil's Island ( I'd turn Baffin Island into a penal colony  ) for notorious and hardened crimminals including all these white collar crimminals.But what do you do with guys like Charles Manson? He' what, 74, and seems to be enjoying his stay compliments of the State of California. I think he was on his way to the gallows before the law was changed in the early '70s. ------------- |
Posted By: Luke. J
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 14:11
I would not mind if you felt "like a bit of fun" at least one more time, this might get interesting..  @Vibrationbaby: Please tell me you intended to write homicidal.. And I at least agree on the point that law sometimes is not strict enough, but it sould not be against human rights. Just by the way, I am heavily allergic to the argument that a feature, be it being murderer takes the status of being human away, and I hope not that you start to use it.. |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 14:25
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the best way to mantain order in society is to kill everyone who poses a threat to order. however many societies function at an acceptable (if not ideal) level of order without needing to execute anyone.
perhaps the death penalty has a desireable inpact on society, however there are many examples around the world that attest that it is unnesesary at the most basic level. the question is: is the stability and safety created greater that the average worth of human life? personally i think not, but i recognise that many philosophers polititians and law enforcment officers who are far better informed on this matter disagree with me, i choose to trust their judgement and that of society as a whole because as of today the society i live in is relitively murder free (without use of capital punishment) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 14:31
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I'm against it 100% |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 14:34
So we should make the law only applicable to some people who we know really deserve it? Look, we can't pick and choose, here. We either follow that law through or we don't, and frankly, I don't trust the system to put only the guilty to death. Too many erorrs are made in that regard. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 15:16
Sorry. The Evolution-Creation thread took it all out of me.  As much as I despise colored argumentation on forums, I'll try to be brief and respond. This time I'll be green.
Okay, so I failed at being brief. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 19:23
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I'm 100% in favor, for wanton crimes (e.g., aggravated murder, serial rape). It is a deterrent.
Couple of local cases to discuss:
1. Sociopath murders his neighbor. After server 20 years, is released by the parole board. The very week of his release he slaughters two women (including widow of guy he originally killed) who had testified against him. He finally received the death penalty, it was carried out, and he will not be causing any more havoc. I think it also reasonable that whoever sat on the parole board when he was released should be charged, convicted, and imprisoned as accessory to aggravated first degree murder. Maybe if that happened once or twice life in prison would mean life in prison.
2. Sociopath released from Massachusetts prison relocates here -- I believe he had been serving time for murder. Once here, he feels a neighbor has 'dissed' him and heads on over to their house one Saturday morning, shooting the man point blank, then chasing down the hysterical wife and brutally murdering her. I'm not sure if he's on death row or not. He should be. Again, whoever was complicite in his release should be charged as accessory to two counts of first degree murder, and do a little time, say 5-10 years.
We put down dogs that show a history of biting the people of the neighborhood. No reason we shouldn't do that with murderers, rapists, and others who have behaved that way.
On the plus side, our state has a "three strikes, you're out" law, wherein three qualifying felonies will get the perp life without parole. A lot of them do not want to head back to prison a third time, but are of course incapable of not committing that third strike, and so they generally choose to challenge the police during commission of that third one, and frequently are killed. Good riddance.
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 20:04
Ok, I'll bite.  My view on this matter is quite simple really - as I outlined in my first post. In short, I cannot support the state to execute criminals because for me: 1. I cannot 100% trust the Police, the Judiciary and other relevant legal avenues to ensure that the criminal in question deserves to die, or cannot be rehabilitated or put to use in a penal system. 2. I cannot endorse murder for murder. Such backwards thinking really does not belong in a modern society. This means that although a criminal may murder another person, it is not any better to kill them for the sake of nominal justice. I would much rather see them locked up, working in prison, and at least given the opportunity to do something useful. 3. In cases where a murderer is released, and then murders again, it is quite clear that they cannot be rehabilitated, and execution may be a serious option. Again this would depend to the effectiveness of the judiciary as to whether the death penalty would be permissible. Otherwise, hard manual labour should be the only option. And yes, while such a repeat murder may have been prevented by the death penalty, or life internment - I'm no mind reader, and nor are you. 4. Don't get me wrong, I beleive that the most serious crimes should be punished with near Gulag-esque work conditions. No comforts, bare essentials, hard work, time to reflect. 5. To those who moan about the cost of housing inmates. Seriously, I would rather pay my taxes to house them in an effective penal institution than resort to killing people. And I also see a trend, especially in the US, where many death row inmates live onwards of 5-20 years on the row. Cost effective my ****. 6. Haven't us humans killed enough of our own kind already? 7. In a personal situation where one of my family or friends was murdered/raped/violently attacked etc, I would like nothing more than to make the perpetrator suffer personally. But I know that revenge based emotions only lead to personal anarchy, and the last thing I would want is a situation where a literal interpretation of an 'eye for an eye' becomes normalised. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 21:08
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I'd be willing to take execution off the table as an option if life in prison = life in prison (no parole). It happens again and again that someone who initially commits one of these violent crimes is later released only to pick up right where they he or she left off. This happens constantly in my area. As mentioned the three strikes model seems to work pretty well, since by that point we've ample evidence that the individual either cannot or will not be rehabilitated, and that he or she just doesn't give a rip for societal norms. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 03:38
------------- What? |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 13:09
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I would agree that there is something fundamentally flawed with the criminal justice system here in the U.S. I also don't know why we have much higher crime rates. Unfortunately, my area is no better nor worse than any other major city in the U.S.
Now just this morning, a bit south of here, four cops sitting in a coffee shop getting ready to start their shifts were ambushed and gunned down. All four dead.
Whoever is responsible will eventually be found. I'd argue that the person(s) does not deserve even a chance at rehabilitation. Put 'em away for all time, one way or another (true life sentence or execution). ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 17:27
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There's no "sociopaths"... It's called antisocial personality disorder. And yes, pretty much it's impossible to rehabilitate. People with such disorder rarely respond to therapy and are pretty much always violent. People like that populate the prisons and have to be kept away from society. And in some cases I even agree with that violent dog-sociopath analogy...
... at least the dog can't grab a shotgun...or do 0.0001% of the things a dangerous person can do., -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 17:47
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Call them what you want, it's just semantics. The fact is some people just need to be put down.
You might want to go to Wikipedia and do a quick search on "Ted Bundy", to see the amount of death, destruction, and general havoc an uncontained individual of this sort can inflict. The story is full of failures of our justice system: I allow that. And there is a trail of young women dead in their relative youth to prove it. But one way to correct the failures it to take extreme measures. Fortunately, in Florida, at least at the time, Ol' Sparky was up to the task of finally taking Ted off the streets.
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 17:50
I know why we have a higher crime rate, I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. Seriously, though I personally believe it is more about easy access to weapons, plain and simple. It provides a nut case with an easier means to do mayhem. Yet you can't underestimate the ability of people to do harm with unconventional weapons, McVeigh, Kazinsky, etc. for example. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 18:15
 ...and I'm hardly worth the effort, though I guess you could always come in and get my Beatles albums, most of which, while original, are hardly in even good shape.
I agree however that here in the good ol' USA anyone can get a gun, which is generally a more capable weapon of individual (as opposed to mass) destruction than, say, a knife.
I'll say again: there are some serious societal issues here, and some criminal justice issues as well. That I mention them in the same sentence suggests that they are interrelated, and I'm only a casual observer, albeit one who sees the little shrines erected by the side of the road, where someone was gunned down for who knows what reason.
Kazinsky's an interesting anomaly, a one man terrorist operating out of a hovel in Montana. We'd best hope there are no more like him.
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 21:49
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Now back to reality: Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll: Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son. Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter. Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children. Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children. Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 29 2009 at 22:14
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And apparently his previous sentence was commuted by President wannabee Mike Huckabee in Arkansas. If this is true, so much for compassion, and rehabilitation. I wish he could get what he really deserves. ------------- |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 12:23
Last I heard they hadn't caught the guy but from what I've heard this was a cold blooded executuion. Medieval torture for this guy once they get him. ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 12:29
| Ultimately you can never make sense out of senseless acts. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 14:43
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No need to make sense of it. I don't care about his reason or his sob story. I'd volunteer to flip that switch, though I don't know if they have permanent rehabilitation in that state. Hopefully they do. ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 14:48
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I have no desire to terminate the life of anyone, but then it again when it comes to some prominent conservatives you just might not have to twist my arm too hard. Can I have their money after they are toast?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 15:18
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Then again... the discussion is... this guy who murdered 4 guys deserves to live? No, at least not in this planet, and society needs to be protected. Again, he deserves to die -an ugly death if you ask me- not just because he put in danger the life of whoever he lives close from, but because he have to pay 4 murders and that's it... imagine that the wives and kids of this officers will pay the long life of this criminal in jail... that's stupid... so, capital punishment is what we need and that's it... later I will speak about criminal rates per country... maybe there's a lot to talk about... ------------- |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 16:23
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Was it in Guatemala or in Belize that the government tried to eradicate the local Native American people? |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 16:34
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dude... you need to research your sources... in Guatemala cannot be erradicated the native americans because they are the 60% of population and most of the rest 40% have native roots... so, I think you should check who you are reading... that's the lie that the rebels sold during the civil war to get money from european countries who thought they were fighting for the rights of the poor... I can tell you because is my history and my country and I can stand to whatever you believe that this lie is one thing that really makes this country to suffer... wonder where the rebels are since the peace sign...?? yeah, their weapons are the ones who are killing people every day (17 deads each day) and those rebels now are murderers...
Well, that's for another topic... just I can tell you that all that you read about "genocide" is pure lie man... there were excess, yes, painfully, but never at the levels they want you to think of... back to the topic... here we have I think like 156 criminal already sentenced guilty and waiting for the capital punishment... some of them have like 8 years of waiting their punishment and the govenrment still don't take the lead to execute them... sad really... they live like kings in the jails... very, very sad... ------------- |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 17:12
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I was wrong: it happened in Bolivia. Back to the topic: let's close this thread. While I can understand some people need to talk about their political ideas, I feel that some of the non musical subjects of the forum would bring PA to sterile and destructive arguments. From atheism and creationism to Obama's politic or capital punishment, any subject would lead to the same exchange : "I'm for it / I'm against It"; "I'm for it, because... / I'm against it, because...", and "You are wrong, I'm right / No, YOU are wrong, I AM right" Here, the Pro would call the Anti "idealistic sheeps who never suffered", and the Anti would call the Pro "a bunch of blood-thirsty self-proclaimed vigilantes". At the end of the speech, no one would change his/her mind. To all people, go fight elsewhere. Go out and vote. Join a political party, a syndicate, an association, whatever. I'm sick. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 22:34
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Fair enough, I will let this topic go, though reserve the right to post any updates (unless the admins lock the post, obviously) regarding the most recent situation here in WA.
One last word: I generally am not in favor of state-sanctioned killing (hey, I grew up during the Viet Nam War era and am no fan of what is currently going on with the U.S. military policies), but when the state is incapable, for whatever reason, of locking some of these sorts up forever, I do not see the death penalty as a bad alternative for those who, due to the incompetance of the penal system, live to kill/rape/molest another day.
There's a bit in Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. I'm only paraphrasing, but at one point I think it's Sam just wants to kill Gollum. I think it's Gandalf who says something like, "There are many persons who are alive who deserve to be dead. And there are many persons who are dead who deserve to be alive. Can you bring those who are dead back? Then don't be too willing to send those who are alive to death." I think we can all live with this. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 02:51
A very neat and heartfelt summation of where practically every 'emotive topic' thread ends up on PA. The conclusion is also appropriate i.e. talk is cheap until action pushes the price up -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 03:47
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No, definitely not. Life-long sentence is the way. I'm not saying that these people are saints, or kind people. If they murdered once, they can do it again. But justice is blind, so errors may happened. Sentencing innocent person to death is not so nice, isn't it ? Anyway, our country is one of these (majority, or minority?) where we don't have capital p., even we talked about it a lot in school (you know, education). Of course, this has its bad side, there were cases (talking about Czech Republic), where these people escaped from prison. And they killed again. Better prison guards I suppose ? :- / ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 07:34
The cops just killed the guy who was holed up in a friend's house and saved some time and money. Next idiot step right up. ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 08:16
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Guess nobody could be glad about it... but at least it's a relief to have one killer less... And for those who said that these topics are useless, well, see it this way... If we have a perfect system, where killer could get a 100% regenaration and can live a regular life, then I would say that capital punishment should not have to exists, but when you see that the medicine is worse than the illness, well, it's a good option...
I'm against utopia, we live in a cruel world and we have to defend life... but not the murderers/rapers life... ------------- |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 10:15
Oh that is the only good news of this story! It's so much better when it ends this way. The families don't have to go through a long trial, watching the scum act defiant and spout a bunch of nonsense. No lengthly appeals at taxpayer expense. He's just gone. Fantastic. Too bad more of them don't end this way. ------------- |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 12:13
The guy sounded like he had some mental issues going on. Claimed he was Jesus and the world was coming to an end. I am glad that no further lives were lost in this. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 20:41
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Well the last chapter has been written for one guy. I'm sure postscripts are to follow.
Chapters for the victims' families, and his friends and family who abetted him over the last day or two, are yet to be written. I would say in the end there are far more than five lives destroyed.
I would suggest anyone interested in the arguments for/against capital punishment read Norman Mailer's The Executioners Song, which gives an almost minute by minute account -- from crime to death -- of what it's all about. Remarkable book, and still one of my favorites after all these years. Oh, and BOC's Fear the Reaper is a looming presence in the narrative. Highly recommended if you are interested in the topic. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |