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Topic ClosedCapital Punishment: For or Against?

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Poll Question: Do you stand by it?
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The Pessimist View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Capital Punishment: For or Against?
    Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:24
A very sensitive subject, and one that really splits society down the middle.

On one hand you have the people that either value human life too much, think it's too much of a risk that you will get it wrong and/or believe it's not an effective deterrent.

On the other you have the ones that believe it is morally correct to take certain criminals lives, appreciate prisons are over-crowded and/or think criminals shouldn't be allowed to repeat certain crimes.

Both pretty valid opinions, however I am more drawn to the former.

Where do you stand?


Edited by The Pessimist - November 26 2009 at 20:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:26
As much as I deteste many criminals for their acts, I cannot sanction the state to kill. Simple as that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:35

I used to be for it, but now I am not so sure.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:43
well I would never "stand by" something like the death penalty or put any real hope or faith in it, however I don't begrudge those who support it and would never want to be in the shoes of a crime victim's loved ones

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 20:49
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I used to be for it, but now I am not so sure.



Arguing against capital punishment on the basis of killing an innocent person does not an argument against capital punishment make.  One can argue against punishment period on that basis.  What it does is question how good a judicial system is.

I have absolutely zero qualms against capital punishment.  What I do have a problem with is life in prison.  Why should a convicted murderer live a better life than a child whose father lost his home due to being laid off (theoretically)?

I find a lot of the liberal talking points against capital punishment come from those who espouse utilitarian "solutions" for other problems (like health care).

Very well.

If we are going to imprison criminals for life (or at all, really), ensure they put in to the society they take from.  Folks in prison do not pay a debt to society at all- they ultimately rob society even further.

Let them truly pay a debt to society.  Otherwise, if the crime warrants it, get rid of them. 

Publicly.  So it's a deterrent like it used to be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:03
Not so, Rob, because no justice system can ever be perfect, and you can undo a life sentence by letting someone out of jail. You can't undo death, and I can't tolerate a single innocent person being killed. In fact, I believe the Supreme Court said that innocent people have never been killed, but if one were that would be cause to rethink it. It is entirely possible I made that last sentence up.
 
Also, one could say that the problem with your scenario is not how society treats criminals, but how it treats the unemployed. ;-)
 
I would not have a problem with convicted criminals doing labor as long as their working conditions were the same as a normal person. The problem, I suppose, is that it wouldn't stay that way because there are people like Sheriff Joe around.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:19
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Not so, Rob, because no justice system can ever be perfect, and you can undo a life sentence by letting someone out of jail. You can't undo death, and I can't tolerate a single innocent person being killed. In fact, I believe the Supreme Court said that innocent people have never been killed, but if one were that would be cause to rethink it. It is entirely possible I made that last sentence up.
 
Also, one could say that the problem with your scenario is not how society treats criminals, but how it treats the unemployed. ;-)
 
I would not have a problem with convicted criminals doing labor as long as their working conditions were the same as a normal person. The problem, I suppose, is that it wouldn't stay that way because there are people like Sheriff Joe around.


You cannot undo a life sentence if a man has spent a year in jail, Henry.  What do you propose the state does?  Give the man his year back?

And regarding laboring criminals, you are (again) disputing the implementation of things rather than how things should be.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:32
For any crime for which the death penalty could be given, perhaps complete banishment from society would be a good solution.
 
That is, if there was anyplace on this freaking world untouched by society....
 
I have conflicted views regarding personal vengeance. I suppose that translates to governmental vengeance too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:39

No, you can't give him his year back, but you can give him some money as an apology, and isn't being able to undo part of it far superior to not being able undo any of it?

The implementation of things is important because you have to take into account flawed/evil human beings. See: communism.
 
Banishing people seems like asking for trouble.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:48
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

No, you can't give him his year back, but you can give him some money as an apology, and isn't being able to undo part of it far superior to not being able undo any of it?

The implementation of things is important because you have to take into account flawed/evil human beings. See: communism.
 
Banishing people seems like asking for trouble.


I'm not sure any amount of money could serve as a recompense for the missed years of my family's company were I wrongfully convicted.

In that light...I consider our soldiers...but at least they are noble.

And Henry, if you want to take into consideration the implementation of things because we must "take into account flawed/evil human beings," then we may as well erupt into utter anarchy.  Oh wait. 

Edit: Basically, we didn't throw out having a President because Presidents have let us down.  We have ideals, and state them, and deal with the inevitable bullsh*t as it comes up.


Edited by Epignosis - November 26 2009 at 21:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 21:53
I am against capital punishment, although a life sentence is as good as death anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:03
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

I am against capital punishment, although a life sentence is as good as death anyway.


Unless you are the one paying for it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:33
But Rob there's a difference between how easy it is to abuse something. There is only one President, but there are many wardens who could potentially get away with something if we start leaving loopholes. There's a reason we don't do forced labor anymore, but we still have a President.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

I am against capital punishment, although a life sentence is as good as death anyway.

Unless you are the one paying for it.
Executing somebody costs more than life...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:41
Despite my being a hard line liberal, more or less down the line, I used to support the death penalty.
Now, well...I don't know.
I used to think of it as simply as, if you kill someone the only punishment worthy of taking a life is losing yours.

As I got older it became alot more complicated than that. From a lot of different angles.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 22:42
I don't trust the State with taxing it citizens let alone killing them, although it is adept at both. Regardless of innocent people being executed or not, I don't believe it to be moral or within the realm of powers that should be given to the State. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:23
I'm quite confused on this matter and don't have a clear answer. Though I tend to favor the abolition of death penalty, I sometimes think it is necessary. There are people who will just not change, ever. And whose contributions to society can only be chaos and death.

On this matter, I just don't know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:30
As a general rule, I am a bleeding heart liberal, and thus against the death penalty, for many of the reasons against the death penalty stated above.  However, I did have no issue with the recent execution of the D.C. sniper.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 23:35
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I don't trust the State with taxing it citizens let alone killing them, although it is adept at both. Regardless of innocent people being executed or not, I don't believe it to be moral or within the realm of powers that should be given to the State. 
 
While your statement speaks to my libertarian sensibilities I still say, "hang em' all".  Theoretically it is still a jury of your peers that condemns you while the state acts as executioner.  The problem, as my cold icy heart, sees it is that: the modern legal system is extremely inefficient and expensive.  Throw out the chair, injections, gas, and whatever else there is out there; rope is still very cost effective.
On a side note: I never thought I'd seen the day Henry went soft.  What if I there were a death by bowling pin option?


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 01:18
If you could arrive at a law enforcement system that was 100% efficient and was immune from corruption the capital punishment debate would be a no-brainer. As the requirements for the foregoing are about as likely as Attila the Hun receiving a posthumous nomination for a Nobel Peace Prize, you gotta vote 'No'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 02:22
Definitely not an easy one - there have been so many mis-carriages of justice in my living memory which pre abolition would have led to the death penalty; the Birmingham six spring to mind as an example - jailed in 1975 for the Birmingham pub bombings & released as innocent men in 1991; these men would have been hanged a decade earlier

Problem is, there are so many crimes you see perpetrated where guilt is 100% proven, part of my brain tends toward acceptance of the death penalty, though not publicly; that just smacks of revenge, not justice.

As I say, not an easy one

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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