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Prog clichés

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Topic: Prog clichés
Posted By: Stool Man
Subject: Prog clichés
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 04:13
There are clichés in everything, of course.  But what are the clichés of progressive rock? 
 
I'd say, for example, that dividing a long piece of music into multiple sections and just calling each "Part I", "Part II", "Part III", "Part IV", etc is a cliché. 
Having a melody that only appears at the beginning and the end but nowhere in between is another cliché.
 
Your suggestions are welcome.  Please try to avoid picking on bands you don't like, let's keep it general.


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rotten hound of the burnie crew



Replies:
Posted By: Ajay
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 04:38
Playing bass like Chris Squire.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 04:41
 - Sounding to some extent like the prog giants (Genesis, Yes, KC) is very much cliched. Steven Wilson pulled that a lot on Grace and The Raven. A lot of Genesising and Hacketteering married with his brand of experimentation and songwriting.

 - The use of the Mellotron, Hammond, and the (Mini-)Moog.

 - Someone mentioned a few months ago that combining experimentation, improvisation, and classical influences can really do the trick. (Not always the case, like with Popol Vuh's Hosianna Mantra.)


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:07
 Plenty of 7 minutes song or higher with some Jazzy parts and a bunch of new sounds. Maybe, prog rock is a big cliché, after all...

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“Art is the proper task of life. ”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am not afraid of Death, I just don't want to be there when it happens".
- Woody Allen




Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:26
Originally posted by rdtprog

  Maybe, prog rock is a big cliché, after all...
 
No, Prog is an exception among clichés - most other styles of popular song last about three minutes, and have a verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/verse/chorus structure, whether they're ballads or rockers, funky or folky.
 
To quote the man who turned down The Beatles in 1962 - "guitar bands are on the way out".  Now add another fifty years of guitar bands to that.
 
The world of prog is comparatively free of clichés, but this topic is about spotting those clichés that are particular to prog.


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:26
Having a 15 - 25 minute song at the end of an album (especially evident in modern prog)

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:29
Originally posted by Stool Man

Originally posted by rdtprog

  Maybe, prog rock is a big cliché, after all...
 
No, Prog is an exception among clichés - most other styles of popular music last about three minutes, and have a verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/verse/chorus structure, whether they're ballads or rockers, funky or folky.
 
To quote the man who turned down The Beatles in 1962 - "guitar bands are on the way out".  Now add another fifty years of guitar bands to that.
 
The world of prog is comparatively free of clichés, but this topic is about spotting those clichés that are particular to prog.
... and that is why he said: 
Originally posted by rdtprog

Plenty of 7 minutes song or higher with some Jazzy parts and a bunch of new sounds. Maybe, prog rock is a big cliché, after all...


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:31
OK, then - this topic can help us find out if it is or not? LOL

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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:33
 - Freedom and insanity reflected in the use of extraordinary melodies, chords (A5/C, Eb5sus4add9add11add13, etc., which might hint at contemporary classical music), rhythms, etc.
 - (Crappy, vague, universal-anthemic) philosophical lyrics.
 - Concepts (well-thought-out ... and the opposite).
 - Daring artwork (well-thought-out ... and the opposite).
 - Occasional instrumental filler.


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Morsenator
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:52
Pretending to be completely free of clichés, as if "inventing a new genre" (which someone probably did five years before the band in question started doing that kind of music) or complaining how "today's music is so devoid of new ideas" (except for the music they're making, of course) is itself pretty much a cliché by now.

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You love the music, the music loves you!
http://moonsofjupiter.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://moonsofjupiter.bandcamp.com/



Posted By: Quirky Turkey
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwyj3D13QhA

This includes a few.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 05:58
- polyrythms
- having different parts of a song series in different albums
- using church pipe organ sound in a rock context
- guitar solos inspired by David Gilmour's
- singing about cosmic universal love instead of a man&woman's love


Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 06:03
Originally posted by Stool Man

OK, then - this topic can help us find out if it is or not? LOL


Can Prog could be totally free of clichés? Maybe not, but i went pretty deep in his superficiality to know that the essence of Prog could be on his trend to avoid all clichés by experimenting with new genres.


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“Art is the proper task of life. ”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am not afraid of Death, I just don't want to be there when it happens".
- Woody Allen




Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 07:38
An album cover featuring floating islands or some variation thereof.

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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 07:44
The people who create cliches are always far more important than the talentless hacks who recognize the phenomenon being subsequently repeated by others e.g. Dylan, Floyd and the Beatles could be considered the primal movers and shakers for what would become our beloved Prog


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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 07:56
Having lyrics incorporating plots and/or characters derived from fantasy books (e.g. Lord of the Rings) is a well worn prog cliche, at least in its early days.

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It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 08:00
The idea of levitating music to be something more than 1-2-3 let's boogie - and that it in itself could be considered an art form. 

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 08:15
Tony Banks once said that he felt Wind & Wuthering fell into 'predictable swirling dynamics' I guess 'swirling dynamics' is a prog cliche, but it's one I happen to love..

That said I don't want to hear modern prog bands playing around with the cliches of old, I'd rather they invented some new ones, in the true spirit of progression.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 09:37
Playing 20 notes in a second of time when a mere 10 will do . . . or even one.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 09:48
The Free Online Dictionary defines cliche as "A trite or overused expression or idea", further explaining that the word denotes "an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through overuse".  I think some of the responders are mistaking "common themes/tropes" for "cliches."  Profound lyrics about universal love/philosophy will always be poignant (as long as they're done well!), concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, complex musical ideas have been used for hundreds of years and didn't become cliche in jazz or classical music.   


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 09:52
Originally posted by Progosopher

Playing 20 notes in a second of time when a mere 10 will do . . . or even one.


Yes, generally the need to make it all very busy and utilize every fill.   I am not saying all prog is like that, but a lot of it is.   Take Bruford on Fallen Angel....the downbeat nature of the song seems to make him almost restless. 


Posted By: Ajay
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:54
Sounding like Jon Anderson.


Posted By: Ajay
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 11:55
^ Unless you are, in fact, Jon Anderson.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:08
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

The people who create cliches are always far more important than the talentless hacks who recognize the phenomenon being subsequently repeated by others e.g. Dylan, Floyd and the Beatles could be considered the primal movers and shakers for what would become our beloved Prog.
Dylan? How?

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:15
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by ExittheLemming

The people who create cliches are always far more important than the talentless hacks who recognize the phenomenon being subsequently repeated by others e.g. Dylan, Floyd and the Beatles could be considered the primal movers and shakers for what would become our beloved Prog.
Dylan? How?
(I'm not remotely a Dylan fan, by the way)
 
1965 - Jukebox companies lose their tight grip on how long a pop song can be, and Dylan writes "Like A Rolling Stone", the first six-minute pop song.
1966 - Dylan releases the first double album.
 
I'd say having the first long song and the first double album makes him a prime mover for making prog possible.


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:15
^ M-hm.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

Profound lyrics about universal love/philosophy will always be poignant (as long as they're done well!), ...
What do you mean by "done well"? I think there are some philosophical lyrics that work if they are insightful. If not, I don't see any chance on poignancy.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

complex musical ideas have been used for hundreds of years and didn't become cliche in jazz or classical music.
... though still there are times when complexity can be useless when it's done for the sake of complexity.


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.

I think he means that just because there are a lot of concept albums, that doesn't mean they have lost their resonance. But I can see how one would read it the other way around (that because there are a lot of them, they haven't lost their resonance).


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 12:52
^ Looks like we understand different things by "resonance". Oh, well. My point was that sometimes conceptualization isn't necessary.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 14:07
Many of these i don't find cliche whatsoever. 

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Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 14:32
It is cliche to not be cliche.

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I am currently digging:

Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz!

Please drop me a message with album suggestions.


Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 15:04
this thread is becoming a real cliché...


-------------
“Art is the proper task of life. ”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am not afraid of Death, I just don't want to be there when it happens".
- Woody Allen




Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 15:15
Originally posted by rdtprog

this thread is becoming a real cliché...
 
It's only one thread.  Not like a This band vs That band poll, of which there are hundreds


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 16:47
Falsetto male vocals
Pipe organ thrown in for dramatic effect
Lyrics involving a quest usually by a soldier who then learns the futility of war
Fast keyboard runs for the sake of it


and I have just described Glass Hammer who I love. Who cares about cliche? I don'tSmile


Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:43
Clichés are probably found in less great prog bands with obvious influences that are over-emphasizing some element, for example the rhythm in a 7/8 groove, as if the time signature is the heart of the song.

And in a related way.... songs beginning with a complex groove in odd time-meter - but that section is typically followed by a plain groove in 4/4, overly simple in comparison, making you feel that the complex section was just an exercise, and the 4/4  section is an in-between section were you can relax.

In other words, contrived ways of using odd time signatures.


Another cliche could be spacy synth solos with a sort of sound that for example Mark Kelly of Marillion have used in some solos, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79xkgIXhmU&t=1m52s" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79xkgIXhmU&t=1m52s
(I wouldn't call this example cliché but there are probably other neoprog bands that have used this sound in this way)
(by the way, I think this 7/8 song is good, so not an example of over-emphasized 7/8 groove Smile )

There are no clichés related to good prog! I think!?!


Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:46
Anything by VDGG---LOL---(excuse me why I run and hide from attack)


Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 17:51
Lyrics about artificial problems like split personality, depressions. Awful!

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 18:10
I can listen to modern prog that is heavily influenced by the greats of the 70's and not feel like I'm being bombarded by cliches. Its a delicate line. When that happens, you just feel like you're putting on a comfortable old shoe. But that doesn't happen most of the time when I listen to new prog. Most of the time, I hear cliches, and they are too numerous to mention.

A cliche is a little more transient a thing compared to an influence which to me is broader - its a motif, structure, lyrical device, gimmick, solo, instrument use, etc that has been known to work in the past and so gets used over and over. The electric guitar solo is the biggest cliche in all of rock, IMHO. And when none is really called for and you still get one, I get especially irritated. 

But otherwise, I'm just glad that prog is still alive and well. Its established itself as a marketable genre with a solid fan base thats not going away. Put out new prog year after year and if it sounds too much like old prog, I'll move on. But at least the genre didn't die out completely. 

aldri7


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 19:21
Originally posted by Ajay

Playing bass like Chris Squire.

It's kind of hard not to, when you are slinging one of these babies around!   Rotosound strings, Herco plectrum etc.    

This one is a 1973...

...yeah, I guess playing a Rick bass with a plectrum IS a prog cliche!  Squire, Rutherford, Bennett, Camp, Strater etc.!   Greg Lake couldn't stand Ricks, and they aren't for everyone's tastes!  But man, do they play great!  




Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 19:34
 - Single-musician/songwriter multi-instrumentalism.
 - Experimentation by spitting on tape, dipping it in acid and playing it, etc. Tongue


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: March 21 2013 at 22:39
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, ...
I don't get that one.

I think he means that just because there are a lot of concept albums, that doesn't mean they have lost their resonance. But I can see how one would read it the other way around (that because there are a lot of them, they haven't lost their resonance).


Yeah, I meant it the first way.


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 00:57
Originally posted by cstack3

Originally posted by Ajay

Playing bass like Chris Squire.

It's kind of hard not to, when you are slinging one of these babies around!   Rotosound strings, Herco plectrum etc.    

This one is a 1973...

...yeah, I guess playing a Rick bass with a plectrum IS a prog cliche!  Squire, Rutherford, Bennett, Camp, Strater etc.!   Greg Lake couldn't stand Ricks, and they aren't for everyone's tastes!  But man, do they play great!  


I generally don't blay bass, but I like playing on Ricks.  It is easy to play them like low-end guitars.  Spectres are also very cool for my guitar playing hands.
 
 Back to the topic though, we need to distinguish cliches from characteristics.  Characteristics are defining, cliches are overused or elements used for their own sake.


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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 02:53
Cliches are good, that's why they are cliches.................


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 02:58
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

The Free Online Dictionary defines cliche as "A trite or overused expression or idea", further explaining that the word denotes "an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through overuse".  I think some of the responders are mistaking "common themes/tropes" for "cliches."  Profound lyrics about universal love/philosophy will always be poignant (as long as they're done well!), concept albums don't lose their resonancy because many of them are made, complex musical ideas have been used for hundreds of years and didn't become cliche in jazz or classical music.


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 04:31
the way Marillion latest incarnation structure their songs by starting slowly with some piano lines and building to a crescendo the melody where every instruments kicks in with Steve Hogarth screaming his heart out. Well, maybe it shows the end of the prog style and the beginning of  post-rock.


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“Art is the proper task of life. ”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am not afraid of Death, I just don't want to be there when it happens".
- Woody Allen




Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 09:53
You know, most of what has been posted so far sounds more like pet peeves of the individual poster.  Things they don't like and are tired of hearing.  Is it still a cliche if most people love it?  Like the example of guitar solos.  They are the biggest actual cliche mentioned, yet most rock fans would be very disappointed if they were suddenly no longer used.  Personally, I'm not crazy about songs that DON'T have a guitar solo of some sort in them.

However, I think it's safe to say that the many variations of "apocalypse in 9/8" found in prog from the 80's until now, is definitely a cliche.  I still love the sound though, and usually don't mind bands doing their take on it.  


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 12:10
Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 17:58
Originally posted by Quirky Turkey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwyj3D13QhA

This includes a few.

Hahaha, Richard Ayoade and Matt Berry - I *love* those guys! I wish they'd make more IT Crowd episodes... or Garth Marenghi's Darkplace for that matter... (On the other hand, there's probably already more than enough Mighty Boosh for the world to handle... LOL)


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 22 2013 at 23:13
ummmm....rock musicians wearing capes, perhaps?  

I can't think of many rock idioms that employed the onstage cape as much as prog!  This is a nice one....Steve Howe, "Solos Tour," 14 August, 1976, Hawthorne Park, Illinois....




Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:04
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:07
I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 



-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:11
Originally posted by infandous

You know, most of what has been posted so far sounds more like pet peeves of the individual poster.  Things they don't like and are tired of hearing.  Is it still a cliche if most people love it?  Like the example of guitar solos.  They are the biggest actual cliche mentioned, yet most rock fans would be very disappointed if they were suddenly no longer used.  Personally, I'm not crazy about songs that DON'T have a guitar solo of some sort in them.

However, I think it's safe to say that the many variations of "apocalypse in 9/8" found in prog from the 80's until now, is definitely a cliche.  I still love the sound though, and usually don't mind bands doing their take on it.  


I don't know, there are two sides to this debate.  I love a good guitar solo but I don't like the pulling teeth variety anymore.  If you've heard one generic 80s metal guitar solo, you've heard nearly all.  Using a device because the audience liked it at one point of time and without conviction or an individualistic insight is cliched and gets pretty boring.  It's the same as using time sig changes because it's supposedly got to have them to be prog.   Genesis's time sig changes were beautiful, intuitive and challenged the boundaries of what was acceptable in rock and pop music.   On the other hand, you take a song like People Passing By (and I actually like PoS), it's so stop start it gets distracting.


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 02:28
Originally posted by DisgruntledPorcupine

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


Yeah, that was kind of a stupid post. Sorry about that.


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 03:29
Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile


Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 03:58
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Originally posted by DisgruntledPorcupine

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Embracing new wave and world music upon running out of ideas from prog (no offense Peter Gabriel, King Crimson and Rush). 
I don't see how trying something new equates to running out of ideas. Shouldn't bands be free to take whatever direction they choose?


Yeah, that was kind of a stupid post. Sorry about that.


Rush have started to running out of ideas, the day they decided to jam in studios, and discover that they have good instincts to make music that is listenable, so they would take less time to make a album and less fun for us to listen.


-------------
“Art is the proper task of life. ”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I am not afraid of Death, I just don't want to be there when it happens".
- Woody Allen




Posted By: friso
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 05:57
Singing the modern equivalent of doobie doobie doobie and expecting to make a philosophicial statement with impact.


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 09:01
Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile

I guess Yes are just that then.  And all the other positive hippies.



-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: March 23 2013 at 23:26
Originally posted by cstack3

ummmm....rock musicians wearing capes, perhaps?  

I can't think of many rock idioms that employed the onstage cape as much as prog!  This is a nice one....Steve Howe, "Solos Tour," 14 August, 1976, Hawthorne Park, Illinois....



Wow--what a prog guitar god---that is more of a shawl than a cape---someone else int the band did the cape thing.Wink


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 03:41
Originally posted by brainstormer

Originally posted by richardh

Originally posted by brainstormer

I'm the kind of person that never thinks that the problem is with "the younger generation."
I think there is a natural ornery aging process.  But the question is, where is the best
new music being produced?   In that sense, I hear a lot of cliche's in some of the newer prog
that isn't going in a direction like Yes and Genesis did in their own way, or pleasant
classical like ELP and others, and seems to be cliche in the way that other modern
rock is going, that is, its kind of dark, negative, depressing, kind of like watching a horror
movie only it's music.   You see this in a lot of prog metal.  To some people, you have to do that to
be creative, but that's really sophmoric. It's like these people are being fed by TV culture.
They should spend more time a a library. 


interesting point

dark music is more important than cheerful music. Cheerful music is made by happy go lucky shallow peopleSmile

I guess Yes are just that then.  And all the other positive hippies.


Something else I've noticed that is that the more modern 'positive prog' often connects with religion ie Glass Hammer, The Flower Kings and Neal Morse are the closest to Yes in that respect. Anderson's spiritualism was a major part of Yes music although that expression was not overtly religious in the lyrics. Not sure what point I'm making but just a thought.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 04:23
I am not sure about Glass Hammer but both TFK and Neal Morse/Spocks Beard were also influenced by Kansas and that is where the religious bent probably comes from.  Kansas is often left out in the discussion on 'happy'/'optimistic' prog.  


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 04:25
I don't think happy music by itself is necessarily shallow though I know that idea is frequently tossed about in Western art generally.  But I too would find a near complete absence of pathos in the work of an artist rather strange and tough to take very seriously.  It is hard to not find anything at all in the human condition that evokes grief or anger.  


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 14:38
A series of very accessible commercial hooks strung together with irrelevant transitions into one long epic. I'm thinking of Nektar - Recycled. Recycled is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, but Journey to the Center of the Eye is an epic from the same group that manages to spare us that sort of commercial shlock masquerading as sophistication.


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 20:17
Originally posted by HackettFan

A series of very accessible commercial hooks strung together with irrelevant transitions into one long epic. I'm thinking of Nektar - Recycled. Recycled is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, but Journey to the Center of the Eye is an epic from the same group that manages to spare us that sort of commercial shlock masquerading as sophistication.
 
You nailed this! Smile


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 20:20
^I do see what you guys are driving at, but i still love Recycled!

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"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 21:08
Originally posted by rogerthat

I don't think happy music by itself is necessarily shallow though I know that idea is frequently tossed about in Western art generally.  But I too would find a near complete absence of pathos in the work of an artist rather strange and tough to take very seriously.  It is hard to not find anything at all in the human condition that evokes grief or anger.  

Yes, but those of us, like myself, who do feel extreme grief or anger at the human condition realizes
that staying there does nothing to change the situation.  In fact, it becomes "resisting evil with evil"
which we are told not to do (ok, by Christ), but resist evil with good" (prog).  Staying in my grief or
anger is physically damaging, and science proves that.  So, when all these people stay in negative
art, to me, it's not a sign of sophistication, it's like being anti-science.  That's a different type of
Pollyanna attitude.  


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: March 24 2013 at 23:56
The worst cliche in progressive metal is that screechy keyboard solo that always comes in following the extensive guitar solo right before it.  It takes it the step too far and it shows up in so many bands.  Jordan Rudess especially.  

Angry



Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 00:58
Originally posted by Earendil

The worst cliche in progressive metal is that screechy keyboard solo that always comes in following the extensive guitar solo right before it.  It takes it the step too far and it shows up in so many bands.  Jordan Rudess especially.  

Angry



 He did tone it down on the last album. In fact, it seems he's been cutting back on it since Systematic Chaos.


Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 01:07
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89

Originally posted by Earendil

The worst cliche in progressive metal is that screechy keyboard solo that always comes in following the extensive guitar solo right before it.  It takes it the step too far and it shows up in so many bands.  Jordan Rudess especially.  

Angry



 He did tone it down on the last album. In fact, it seems he's been cutting back on it since Systematic Chaos.

I was really amazed by that album actually.  It's phenomenal.  Miles ahead of their last last few.


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 03:41
Prog cliche?



How about over-analysis by its fans?


-------------

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 09:52
Originally posted by TODDLER


Originally posted by HackettFan

A series of very accessible commercial hooks strung together with irrelevant transitions into one long epic. I'm thinking of Nektar - Recycled. Recycled is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, but Journey to the Center of the Eye is an epic from the same group that manages to spare us that sort of commercial shlock masquerading as sophistication.

 
You nailed this! Smile

Thanks
Originally posted by presdoug

I do see what you guys are driving at, but i still love Recycled!

I know.    It's true. The cliche remains effective, much as I don't want to admit it.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 10:19
Originally posted by Jim Garten

Prog cliche?



How about over-analysis by its fans?


Clap


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 10:35
Grandiose third person lyrics contrasted with "more personal" first or second person lyrics. And You and I and Supper's Ready are two examples. You find this a lot, too, in Japanese Alt Rock.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 25 2013 at 11:33
Originally posted by brainstormer

Originally posted by rogerthat

I don't think happy music by itself is necessarily shallow though I know that idea is frequently tossed about in Western art generally.  But I too would find a near complete absence of pathos in the work of an artist rather strange and tough to take very seriously.  It is hard to not find anything at all in the human condition that evokes grief or anger.  

Yes, but those of us, like myself, who do feel extreme grief or anger at the human condition realizes
that staying there does nothing to change the situation.  In fact, it becomes "resisting evil with evil"
which we are told not to do (ok, by Christ), but resist evil with good" (prog).  Staying in my grief or
anger is physically damaging, and science proves that.  So, when all these people stay in negative
art, to me, it's not a sign of sophistication, it's like being anti-science.  That's a different type of
Pollyanna attitude.  

Staying with, that is to say, suppressing and beating yourself down with anger is bad.  But venting it is good for yourself (maybe not for the neighbourhood LOL) and music is one way to.  I think an artist would one way or the other express his thoughts about subjects that disturb him.   But I don't disagree with your point; this sad/serious pose in itself has become a cliche.  It's as if anything that doesn't sound serious is inherently bad/pop whatever.


Posted By: Progfan2010
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 09:51
I´d say a cliche in Prog are those unjustified, very intense coming from nowhere Instrumentals, just for the sake of making a Prog-sounding instrumental. Sounds fake. Prog is not meant to be Prog for sounding Prog, but for possessing certain qualities to it, like an intelligent songwriting. Starting a track with cheesy, funny sounding fast and changing tunes is not a characteristic Prog is proud about.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 12:48
I like John Wetton's thoughts on the prog idiom:

http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine" rel="nofollow - http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine

"Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... "


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 12:53
Well he hits the nail on the head imo. Just in that tiny quote. It perfectly explains the never ending debates about prog versus progressive right down to the t. 
From having been on the new suggestions team, I did tend to end up in a lot of those... 


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 13:19
Originally posted by Progfan2010

I´d say a cliche in Prog are those unjustified, very intense coming from nowhere Instrumentals, just for the sake of making a Prog-sounding instrumental. Sounds fake. Prog is not meant to be Prog for sounding Prog, but for possessing certain qualities to it, like an intelligent songwriting. Starting a track with cheesy, funny sounding fast and changing tunes is not a characteristic Prog is proud about.
... and that's where the word "pretentious" comes in. I'm very much aware of the allergies some people around here have to that word, and some would simply explain it as a critic's word for bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-... something bad ... mayhaps something they don't personally fancy. But if we put to use the definition of that word http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pretentious" rel="nofollow - according to Merriam-Webster , it pretty much applies in the context Progfan2010 provided us with - to roughly put it, to adjust it to the context, meaning "unwarranted, uncalled-for, unjustified, excessive, focused on the skill rather than the musical essence".

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 13:48
Want Prog cliches? just listen to some Neal Morse Tongue (and I love most of his music, don't get me wrong).


Posted By: Larree
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 14:53
Originally posted by cstack3

I like John Wetton's thoughts on the prog idiom:

http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine" rel="nofollow - http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine

"Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... "

1973.  Yep.  I still act like I'm in high school sometimes.  Okay.  A lot of the time!   LOL


-------------
http://larree.ws" rel="nofollow - The Larree (dot) Website


Posted By: CosmicCabby
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 15:51
capes, Black holes, spoken word/stories, epic album covers, egos, brilliance, drugs, long pieces, member changes. 

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A flower?


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 17:01
More capes 




Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 17:03
Is it just me, or do those capes actually make our heroes look, well, ... yeah, you probably do think likewise.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 18:42
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

I'm very much aware of the allergies some people around here have to that word...
Atchoo. Tongue I have no problem with the word itself, but it is thrown around a lot, when it is "unwarrented, uncalled-for, unjustified..." I would say it's ironic, but that word is thrown around too. Wink


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 18:58


-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 26 2013 at 22:49
Originally posted by cstack3

I like John Wetton's thoughts on the prog idiom:

http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine" rel="nofollow - http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine

"Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... "

The funny thing is, there are prog fans who think Wetton is pretentious and pompous for saying something so 'offensive'.  Yeah, nevermind if he played with KC and UK, you know more than Wetton about prog, that's the way it goes.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 27 2013 at 02:23
Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by cstack3

I like John Wetton's thoughts on the prog idiom:

http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine" rel="nofollow - http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine

"Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... "

The funny thing is, there are prog fans who think Wetton is pretentious and pompous for saying something so 'offensive'.  Yeah, nevermind if he played with KC and UK, you know more than Wetton about prog, that's the way it goes.

I doubt that Weton is well up on the current prog scene tbh. He has basically described Anglagard but I don't think a band like say Anathema are anything like what he describes. John does have his well voiced criticisms of prog not much unlike Steven Wilson has also received similar bashing. However at least Steven knows the prog scene now.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 27 2013 at 02:31
In 1998, I don't think he'd have been thinking about Anathema and I don't know if prog metal was widely embraced as a part of the wider prog rock umbrella either at that point (I doubt it).   As a description of retro prog, his views hit the nail on the head.  He'd have to be asked in a fresh interview what does he think of bands like Anathema.  However, considering the recent thread where even Wilson's prog credentials were pretty brazenly brought into question, I am not sure the situation has changed much.  There's still a large section of prog listeners who associate it with certain sounds, instruments and styles.  Which is no different from any other rock genre and rock itself is trapped in ubiquity and stereotypes at the moment.  But another cliche of prog is to attempt to present it as something very different and superior from other rock music....and we wonder why critics call it pretentious.


Posted By: twseel
Date Posted: April 14 2013 at 02:14
If progressive music is based on going against against clichés, doesn't that mean that any cliché used in prog is automatically no longer a cliché, as it's normal to do something different and different to do something normal? In that way the existence of prog-cliché is automatically impossible.


Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: April 14 2013 at 03:05
Originally posted by twseel

If progressive music is based on going against against clichés, doesn't that mean that any cliché used in prog is automatically no longer a cliché, as it's normal to do something different and different to do something normal? In that way the existence of prog-cliché is automatically impossible.
 
It's not a cliché the first time somebody does it.  It becomes a cliché after too many people do the same thing.  Playing guitar like Hendrix wasn't a cliché when Hendrix did it, but later became one.


-------------
rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: April 14 2013 at 09:18
I think we seem to have seen that creating a new word
"prog" is legitimate and can have its own rules.  Its become
something different than just an abbreviation of "progressive" rock
for those who care about such things.  

I  think that "prog" that gives most a negative feeling is not true prog.
There wasn't a ton of anger in early prog, there maybe will be
a new term for newer progressive rock that has some of the 
musical elements of prog but not the lyrical content. 

I don't see how you can carry on a tradition and not carry on the
thematic content in a literary sense.   That would not be true
in historical aesthetic movements, like Romanticism, Baroque, 
Impressionsism,  and so on. 





-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:08
Having songs that are impossible to listen to and call it your finest piece. Doing blues scale with complex rythms and saying it is influenced by classical music.

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La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle!

- Napoléon Bonaparte


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:27
Originally posted by presdoug

^I do see what you guys are driving at, but i still love Recycled!


Like the band REDEMPTION. they recycle somewhat in a good way.

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:29
Moooooooooooooooooog synths a blazin!!!

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: May 17 2013 at 22:33
Singing like Peter Gabriel. LOL

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: May 18 2013 at 13:00
Not to be grumpy, but almost everything most prog bands do these days is cliched.

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Et In Arcadia Ego


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2013 at 13:03
Clogs in the studio.

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: May 19 2013 at 02:10
Hiring a desert island to go record your new album in a state of complete isolation and profound mystical meditation, spending a fortune to bring all the equipment there, only to realise that you miss the smell of car exhausts and bringing everything back and starting it all over again at Abbey Road LOL


Posted By: Morsenator
Date Posted: May 19 2013 at 13:26
Originally posted by The_Jester

Doing blues scale with complex rythms and saying it is influenced by classical music.

LOL
Stern Smile

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You love the music, the music loves you!
http://moonsofjupiter.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://moonsofjupiter.bandcamp.com/



Posted By: awaken77
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 08:03
Calling any band consist of keyboard, bass player and drummer "ELP clone" is a cliche




Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 16:35
Originally posted by cstack3

I like John Wetton's thoughts on the prog idiom:

http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine" rel="nofollow - http://elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine

"Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... "

Isn't there a live 90's album with Wetton (Steve Hackett in Japan, or Asia in Japan, or something) where they play an old Genesis or Crimson song and after Wetton asks the audience, "Was that prog enough for you?" LOL


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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 18:33
Originally posted by Stool Man

There are clichés in everything, of course.  But what are the clichés of progressive rock? 
 



Rock Music Critics & Journalists that hate Prog are cliches of Progressive Rock. Tongue

Smile


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[IMG]http://www.ferhiga.com/liricas/portadas/atrick04.jpg">
~Entangled In Your Own Dreams...~



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