BIG FIVE
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98706
Printed Date: April 17 2024 at 21:55
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Topic: BIG FIVE
Posted By: King Manuel
Subject: BIG FIVE
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 12:41
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There seems to be a general consensus who the so called Big Five of Prog Rock are: Yes ELP Genesis King Crimson Pink Floyd All of them are 70s bands from the glory days of our beloved genre. With Prog having undergone a big revival, is it maybe time to look at the Big Five again and maybe remove one to be replaced by a group from the 80s,90s or 00s? What is your opinion? Whom would you replace with whom? ------------- Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus |
Replies:
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 12:42
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ELP is bad. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 12:54
| ELP were one of the innovators of the genre so I would take out Pink Floyd who just tagged along (allbeit selling shedloads of albums) and replace them with Dream Theater who are the most significant post 1980 prog band. I would also entertain the idea of Porcupine Tree instead of DT perhaps? |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:06
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I would probably give at least one slot to a significant Krautrock or RIO group. The traditional Big 5 are there mainly for their popularity and influence, and there is good reason for that, but I'd want to recognize some of the leaders of the (relative) outer fringes of prog. Say, with Can, Magma or even Zappa. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: King Manuel
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:12
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Personally I would like to remove King Crimson as I never could get to like them but I think their influence is too important. I would thus remove ELP as I must say it is the band on the list which has probably had the least influence on other bands. With ELP gone I would, sorry, cliché cliché, have to add Dream Theater for their Genre defining influence. ------------- Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:27
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The big five will always be the big five. They, along with several other bands (some of whom were less successful than these five) created the genre. No matter what new bands arise and no matter how old these bands are and whether people like them or not, they will always remain responsible for creating the genre. Now, bands like Porcupine Tree, The Flower Kings, The Tangent, Dream Theater and so on and so forth, may have helped revive the genre, and some have even taken the genre in new directions. But they didn't start it. They weren't at the forefront of the progressive rock movement of the late 60s/early 70s and barring the invention of time machine technology, they never will be. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:37
A big five was easy but could you make a big ten list? 
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:40
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Tull is missing from your list dude. ------------- |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 13:54
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Barbu wrote:Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:09
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I feel like it would be more interesting to try listing the BIG FIVE of post 1970s prog rock. So my post-1979 BIG FIVE list would be: The Mars Volta Dream Theater Porcupine Tree Muse Radiohead (could probably replace either Radiohead or Muse with Tool actually.) Basically, they fall under the same criteria that the original BIG FIVE did: prog groups who were popular (thus bringing prog into the modern mainstream), sold a lot of albums, and/or influenced a lot of bands. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:11
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Posted By: Mind_Drive
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:30
i´d probably replace ELP with Tull since then we have covered symphonic, eclectic, psychedelic and folk prog  a post 70s BIG FIVE would be very interesting though ------------- It's just a ride... <3 |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:49
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If we're talking Prog with a big P, then I have a hard time seeing Tull taking ELPs slot. If people were to sweep all notions of self-inflicted fanboyism aside and look at this from an objective point of view, then we could possible (for once) look at this wonderful genre in the light of music history........not through some rose-tinted glasses fuelled by the gift of hindsight, a bottle of red wine and a little buddha. Anyway, there were never anything called the "big five". All internet nonsense conjured up by folks who seem equally taken aback by words such as "greatest" and "underrated"  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:55
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:55
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When I first joined PA, the talk was of the Big 7, which also included Jethro Tull and Rush. People who didn't like these bands or didn't feel they were prog enough, offered up their replacements, which generally consisted of the likes of Camel, Magma, Can, Gentle Giant, or VDGG. Although all good bands, and all big within the umbrella of being important and influential within the prog community, none of these bands had the commercial appeal and success of the ones listed under the Big 7 umbrella. ------------- 
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 14:59
Yep. ------------- |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:03
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:04
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Heh I was just thinking to myself: "Haven't I seen Van Der Graaf Generator mentioned in these "big 5" accumulations before?" Gentle Giant too actually. I gather it also depends on where you're situated. If you grew up in say Toronto during the late 70s early 80s, I bet you'd want to include Rush in the list.....and judging purely by the level of success Rush garnered on their home turf, I guess the notion isn't half crazy. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:05
7 wonders of the world they say, i know that many see Jethro Tull in this, but not me, i would replace Jethro by VDGG or GG. If Rush is not included on the big 5 is not a surprise here, they still are the best "cult" band. And i like them like that, don't want too many on my ship.  ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Mind_Drive
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:10
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i get your point, guldbamsen. however, to satisfy my rational brain´s need to categorize and make top lists, i will try it anyway not an easy task but... the objective BIG FIVE of bands i know of, judging by influence would probably be Marillion Rush Dream Theater The Flower Kings Porcupine Tree ? and i just totally failed to name my personal top 5 so this post ends here..^^ ------------- It's just a ride... <3 |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:11
And really by commercial success, much of the Big 7's commercial success came post-prog period, wherein, it is the period when many a progger doesn't even really like their output, but it is this post-prog period success that opened the doors for many fans to go back and discover the prog period and then discover the less successful bands of that period. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:14
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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:26
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Big 5 is - Floyd, Crimson, Yes, Genesis & Tull IMHO but thats just my preference for Tull over ELP.
I can't see any of those being ousted by any of the johnny come lately's but if I had to pick some they would include
Radiohead
MUSE
Porcupine Tree
Sigur Ros ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:30
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We should give a better definition to the word "big". In terms of dimensions, Greg Lake is currently one of the biggest (but also the former Camel Doug Ferguson is). ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:30
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:35
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Posted By: ProgSword
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:41
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IMO Pink Floyd Yes ELP Jethro Tull Were the big four based on commercial success. King Crimson was always a niche. The big four last decade was... Dream Theater Porcupine Tree Opeth The Mars Volta Not really sure what this decade's big Proggers are though. I guess Haken is trying to take up that mantle.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:51
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 15:59
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The Mars Volta Porcupine Tree Marillion Sigur Ros Dream Theater For modern? ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 16:02
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 18:42
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Everybody is going to have their own Big Five, but these are the clear leaders when it comes to the development of the genre. Tull, Rush, and VDGG should definitely get similar levels of attention for their contributions, which would make a Big Eight. I would be content with that. Maybe add Zappa and make it Nine? No one will ever fill their shoes and have the same impact. These are the bands who created Prog as we know it. Has Prog moved on? Are their great artists who came after? Yes, but it is all built on the foundations of these artists. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: CryoftheCarrots
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 19:09
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Any modern list would have to include Tool. The sheer number of modern prog metal bands that incorporate the Tool sound is proof. ------------- "There is a lot in this world to be tense and intense about" MJK |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 19:30
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Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 19:36
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For all time it would be: Yes Pink Floyd Genesis King Crimson ELP Pretty much no argument. For the post seventies it would be: Anglagard Marillion Porcupine Tree Flower Kings Spock's Beard I didn't put DT in there because they are prog metal. |
Posted By: CryoftheCarrots
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 19:53
A bass heavy, complex drum sound/rythm's without neccesarily having soloing guitars is how I would describe Tool's sound. I hear that sound emulated often. Karnivool springs to mind but there are many others. ------------- "There is a lot in this world to be tense and intense about" MJK |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 20:51
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If I were to replace a band, it would likely be Floyd – replaced by Tull. ELP must remain. They're too unique. Same with Crimson. Genesis I've never thought of a "symph" band. ELP is classical rock, and the Yes brand of symph is quite different. Floyd became very popular but they're pretty much a glorified psych band, IMO. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 20:58
^this
You must have been looking over my shoulder when you wrote that......  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 22:09
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Some great thoughts all around in this thread so far and I agree with most from what I've read here, although not seeing RUSH as a big 5 has my eye brow raised higher than that of a Mötley Crew's night at the rippers. In my time and experience through extensive Prog explorations I do have to say that 'Genesis' are the absolute kings of the genre. Just my opinion though.  As far as the 90's and 21st century goes I do think Dream Theater have become a very big household name in the progosphere, and I'm not saying that because I'm a huge fan of their music but mainly because they actually are quite popular and well received....Except here on PA LOL] Not many Prog bands have sold over 12 million albums, but DT have. That has to say something. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 23 2014 at 22:36
I agree. ELP, formed as a "supergroup" in 1970, were released 7 studio albums in golden decade, and IMO three albums are essential masterpieces of the progressive rock - s/t debut, Tarkus and Trilogy . If you like, add Brain Salad Surgery and that's four. Jethro Tull in the period from 1968 to 1979 were released 12 studio albums of which at least 8 albums are essential prog masterpieces. Nuff said. p.s. Also, ELP never released so great live album that can be in comparision with outstanding Bursting Out
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 00:04
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The old Big 5: Il Rovescio Della Medaglia Alex Oriental Experience Kaamos Cardeilhac Musica Urbana The new Big 5: Duobetic Homunkulus Flies Are Spies From Hell Amps For Christ Hyrrokkin Bubblemath ...facts is facts ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 00:08
I would maybe take Pink Floyd out and put Tull in, not because Floyd aren't a great band, but because Floyd were only a Psychedelic/ Space Rock band for the brief period when Syd Barrett abdicated and Dave Gilmour established himself in the band. Other than that no argument. Rush didn't establish themselves till the late 70's. Camel, Renaissance, Gentle Giant and VDGG don't quite come up to the other five bands. Neither do Dream Theater, Marillion, Spock's Beard, Porcupine Tree and other more contemporary bands so top five stays as is. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 07:50
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Crazy talk. As others have stated, for the most part, these are the "Originators" of the genre so why would you need to change that? If you feel the need to glorify the modern era artists that have "FOLLOWED" in their footsteps then knock yourself out. You've quoted three decades to pick from, that should tell you something. Even current prog bands run their course, Dream Theatre being an example. They came on strong with some good albums but have fallen into a dull and boring metal sound that has little to nothing to do with progressive music. But that's a discussion for another time. BTW, to Horizons, ELP is NOT bad. They were without a doubt extremely talented and innovators in the field of music. You obviously just don't like them. Comments like that are useless in a conversation. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 07:53
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Rush (still going - still huge) Porcupine Tree Radiohead Dream Theater Muse IMO... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 08:08
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Sorry to say that, but without good sales and enough popularity the actual majors wouldn't have let the whole genre begin. So I'd replace King Crimson with Jethro Tull. My personal top 5 would include Camel ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 08:49
Yes. According to progression magazine, is "The Big Six" of progressive music, not the big 5, and Tull is in the list.
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Posted By: RockHound
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 08:56
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From the perspective of the '70s, I would have to go with: Yes Tull ELP Genesis King Crimson As has already been stated, Floyd is great and can absolutely be considered part of the list in retrospect. But during the heyday, Floyd was not widely considered a progressive band. My list for the '90s+ is: Spock's Beard Anglagard The Flower Kings Porcupine Tree Dream Theater All these bands give such a distinct nod toward the '70s they could be called "retroprogressive." I think bands like Radiohead, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, and Sigur Ros deserve a special nod, as they have paved the road into the future.
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 11:40
King Crimson were never really a big band. Influential, yes, but no more than a large cult band. Apart from the debut and In the Wake (which most of us bought on the back of the debut and mostly absolutely hated), their albums scraped round the lower reaches of the UK charts. The others were huge, as were Tull. I think Rush also have to be included now as from the late 70s on, they were comparable to anyone in the genre.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 14:10
This is of course very subjective and I am an ELP fan so I would put Welcome Back My Friends up against Bursting Out. Also Pictures At An Exhibition as a unique live album could easily be added to the 4 'essential prog masterpeices' that you name. In my mind though there is a big seven that includes Rush and Tull. 7 is a really annoying number though so we could easily add Camel , VDGG and PFM to make that special ten imo. bugger missed out Gentle Giant .. rips up list and starts again |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 14:13
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The list will never be complete without Amon Düül ll. The bible says so. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 14:43
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& Henry Cow ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 15:15
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The "big five" is not a matter of tastes, it's some sort of "establishment", you are not gonna change that now anymore. It's like talking about Elvis, The Beatles and the Stones, or The Sex Pistols, when many people may have preferred other artists in their genres. It is obvious that many great ones are as deserving or more than those five, but those five are what they are. Another thing is trying to make a list of newer Prog bands which could be considered as the modern big ones, but when there's no element of innovation, quality alone is often not enough to bring a band on such a pedestal. Personally I am not too in depth with much modern Prog but I certainly see bands such as Marillion, IQ, DT or the Flower Kings as deserving a status as the "architects of the revival of Prog".
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 15:20
-------------  
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 17:29
The "Big 7" does sound better. 7 is the number of perfection, after all. And while Bursting Out is spectacular, the triple-album that is Welcome Back was my companion for many years, I literally played my copies for anyone who would loan me their attention span, as clumsy as that sounds. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 24 2014 at 23:04
I have been known to sneak up quietly behind people. The missus swears she is going to put a bell on me someday. She will have to catch me first.------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 00:06
Imo, ELP's greatest are their first three album and Works Vol 2. I mentioned Brain Salad Surgery because that album is, if i am not wrong, widely concerned as an essential prog masterpiece. However, ELP's catalogue is not so large as Jethro Tull's, and ELP don't have so much essential prog masterpieces in their catalogue that to be enough to take Jethro Tull's place in Big 5. I mean, if some band deserved their place in this Big Five group of the great bands, that supposed band have to have a larger catalogue than e.g. ELP. Also, that supposed band ought to be way more popular than Camel, VDGG and PFM - the great bands you mentioned; Jethro Tull was / is more popular than these three bands altogether, imo.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 00:29
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A case could be argued about Mike Oldfield too, perhaps he did not release so many masterpieces but as for individual albums nobody can argue about the historical significance of Tubullar Bells for Prog Rock and its popularization to the big masses. In the 70's you would visit anybody's home and many people might not have albums by Yes, ELP or Tull, but rare was the home without one copy of TB. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 00:54
I can't really talk about Tull all that much as I only own Stand Up , Aqualung and Thick As A Brick. I am aware that Passion Play is regarded very highly but then there are another 4 essential prog masterpieces (in your estimation) that are not discussed as much on the forum and I can't say I'm aware of their status in this regard. ELP made some poor decisions after 1974 there is no doubt but at least they didn't just repeat themselves and they do have a couple of later albums in their catalog that are highly regarded ( ELPowell and Black Moon). I don't think this matters too much though as the era of innovation in prog was 1970-1974 after which many prog bands either just repeated themselves or took a more commercial stance with rare exceptions such as King Crimson (but not Tull I suspect) |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 01:12
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 06:40
Imo, just because Pink Floyd were psychedelic / space rock band, they must be in the Big FIve. I mean, Pink Floyd in Big 5, with their vast catalogue, are covering all that huge genre with all of its sub-genres - from early English psychedelia to the progressive psychedelia.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 07:16
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Five words you must read before you die: You're all full of sh*t Prog is considerably more bountiful that just 5 'biggie' bands so why not just celebrate the scores of fantastic bands that adorn our site whether they be from the early 70's or otherwise? ------------- 
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 07:30
Oh, thank you for enlightening us!
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 07:50
 My list of Big 5 post-modern era prog bands is: Dream Theater, The Flower Kings, Ozric Tentacles, Porcupine Tree and Tool.
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 09:13
| If we're stuck on five, which I don't get why it needs to be five, we should replace Floyd with Tull, otherwise just add Tull. If we add Rush, then I would definitely add Zappa. I haven't warmed yet to any modern band except Anglagard, but I don't what their degree of success is or how they might've pioneered anything new or influenced anyone in the genre. I don't care that much for the modest amount of Dream Theater or Spock's Beard that I've heard. I haven't explored Porcupine Tree yet. So on and so forth. I'm not sure there's any good suggestion for the top (5?) echelon. It's at least conceivable that a modern group could be added. I can't envision a modern band replacing any one of them. |
Posted By: musitron
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 09:36
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The Big 5 is there to stay. But a Big 5 out of 70s would be interresting Porcupine Tree and Opeth would be there for sure. ------------- “One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.” Dark Side Radio - Best new Prog 2015 mixed with good old stuff. - www.live365.com/stations/young_gun |
Posted By: dave-the-rave
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 10:05
| What about Focus? |
Posted By: JCDenton
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 11:01
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Of all the groups here, no one has debated Yes or Genesis, so it's fair (or at least safe) to say those are absolutes. When it comes to King Crimson, Floyd, Tull, ELP, and Rush, the others in discussion for this "Big 5", commercial success as a basis for an argument just doesn't sit well with me. The reason these groups are regarded so highly is because of their influence in the big heyday of Progressive music. King Crimson is THE influence in Prog. Not too much debate possible on that. That's where half the bands mentioned above started, and too much of early Crimson defined how the genre would look even today. Crimson is widely regarded as the most important and influential and best prog band. I'm not fanboying; it's just hard to see why anyone would think they don't belong in the Big 5. As for the others, it's easier to dismiss Rush because of them being the prominent later 70's band, while what we're looking at is the biggest innovators and successes of the early groups in what's hailed as our "classic era".
As for the other two slots, Floyd is the other big influence I see. Them not fitting the mold of the other groups does not matter. Psychedelic/Space Rock is still a big role (even next to big brother Symphonic Prog) in much of Prog with Floyd being the godfather to nearly all under that umbrella. Floyd is a giant in Progressive music! As for Tull and ELP, that's tough. The first four are so clear to me. Maybe there is a need for a Big 6 or even 7. Breaking down these two bands, they honestly are both very deserving. Tull: -biggest thing to me is Thick as a Brick. Making the textbook definition (and defining the standard) of the concept album -also being a big component in the inception of the stereotype of flutes in Prog ELP: -technical perfection -keyboard masturbation Hmmm…. Really tough.. Ah, who am I kidding. Keyboard masturbation (and being obnoxious) always wins. Big 5: King Crimson Yes Genesis Pink Floyd ELP ------------- "We have grown, but there is still much to be done. Many that live in darkness that must be shown the way, for it is the dawning of a new day." |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 11:10
Also, their debut album translates into 'God's Penis'. It is obviously written. Anyway the big 5 will always be:  even if I myself would interchange the rhino with either a squid or a swordfish. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 11:39
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I would think that post-00s Squire and post-00s Vander would at least be considered for the Big Five. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 11:43
Surely the buffalo bison type thing would be the one to go and the Whale must be in the BIG Five (or the BIG ONE). ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 11:46
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Yeah but whales were never original. They merely copied fish with lungs, which makes them post lung fish.....and we're talking about influence and importance to the genre of the big 5. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 14:56
ELP despite their limited masterpiece-status output were unique in so many ways that IMHO they undoubtedly deserve their place in the top-5. Emerson was among the very first (if not the very first) to take a modular Moog to a live gig (albeit that was still with The Nice), his work on the Hammond with heavy use of the percussive effect was also very innovative at his time, when everybody else was using it as a standard organ with sustained sounds, he was also the first to use a poly-synth in a studio album (the Apollo prototype of the Polymoog in Brain Salad Surgery, if we exclude the TONTO mega-synth ensemble) and he made also an important sound change in prog with the use of the Korgs and the Yamaha GX-1 in the Works period. They also quite revolutionised the genre by doing Prog with nearly no electric guitars (OK, again The Nice had been a precedent). Palmer was also a very innovative drummer with his personal percussive style compared to the dominant rhythmic style of drumming. Their adaptations of classical compositions also made a school. So no doubt for me, like them or not, ELP rightly belong to the top-5.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 15:22
| I'm surprised to see that people (aside from JCDenton) make so little of King Crimson. I cannot imagine modern Prog let alone ELP, Yes and '70s era Floyd sounding the same without them. |
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 16:05
Sorry, but whales originates from land living animals. They're more like cows taking to the water. Nothing to do with fish what so ever,  I also think you got one of the cats wrong. The tiger is the biggest of the species, so I guess you'll have to take the jaguar out. Anyway, both ELP and Floyd belong in the high five just because they were among the first and most successful. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 16:06
But i like my whales to be copies ;[ ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 16:50
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Aside from Pink Floyd, King Crimson is obviously most important of the "big five". Their no. 1 charting debut made such a huge impact that they literally created progressive rock as a genre and introduced the sound that shaped the music of ELP, Yes, Genesis and just about everyone else. ELP is the most doubtsome as their relevance is fading year by year (while the impact of Gabriel-era Genesis has been steadily growing) because unlike King Crimson, the younger generations don't seem to connect with their music. As with writers and painters all artists/art considered the most important changes in retrospect. Its no coincidence ELP's debut is their only album in PA top 100 while 70's cultbands such as Van Der Graaf Generator and Gentle Giant now have four entries each (and KC has three in top 20). Album sales aren't irrelevant but its doesn't really matter who had the highest charting albums (or how much they sold) back in the day. Thousands of bands sold more than Velvet Underground in the late 60's but you can't argue against their importance because of that. My big five would have to be about who has seemingly inspired the most bands/had the biggest impact and kept relevant through the decades. King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa & Can or Magma perhaps. http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2011/08/record-sales-the-velvet-underground-vs-emerson-lake-palmer.html ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 16:51
I would never make so little of Crimson. I love them. But I will take issue a little big with your analysis. Yes were contemporaries of Crimson. There the comparison rather ended. Don't forget the celebrated story about Briford being invited to join KC by Fripp....."I believe you are ready to join King Crimson now"....Fripp was clearly implying that Crimson were a more advanced, mature, clever outfit than Yes. Aside from the presence of Greg Lake, I see no other connection or influence between Crimson and ELP, sorry. As for Floyd, you are a little nearer the mark, if, of course, you presuppose that much of Meddle and DSOTM were mere copies of parts of In The Court and In The Wake. I personally don't, but the influence was clearly present. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 16:55
Fromage was referring to the Big Five of Africa, which includes the leopard, not the jaguar. These are the five most dangerous animals on the continent not counting humans. Of the five, it is actually the cape buffalo that is the most dangerous, and they are a lot bigger than most people realize. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 17:20
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Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 18:06
Aha. |
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 18:13
According to legend, Lake composed Lucky Man in his early teens. He's also responsible for the riff of Schizoid Man. Hard to say who influenced whom. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 19:05
I think Hawkwind would be a better representative of psych/space rock, IMHO. We should just have a Big 10. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 25 2014 at 22:10
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I didn't finish reading the whole thread, but I read quiet a bit about replacing one of the so called big 5 with Jethro Tull. I would rather make it a big 6, for Jethro Tull is indeed too important (at least in my mind) to be left out, but so are the other five. To me it makes sense, since they are the most succesful of the original prog bands, and they are all british, which is the country were the genre was originated (or at least became really succesful). And I would add at least the next 4, also british, with Camel, VdGG, Gentle Giant, and Renaissance (though perhaps many would disagree at least with the last one). And if we would add some non british to the formula of the next ones, I guess there would have to come at least Rush and Kansas (and perhaps some of the italian ones). |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 00:24
| Several have commented, including myself, that we should have more than a big five. I really don't where the sacred number five came from. Is it that we have five fingers on one hand? I don't get it. I'm pushing for the magical number seven plus or minus two. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 00:52
Lake wrote Lucky Man as a Bob Dillon style folk song pre KC. Fripp wouldn't let him record it with Crimson and it almost got missed off ELP's debut album (they had room for one more song and Lake apparently said something like 'well I have this little thing I wrote...' etc.)
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 00:56
I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about ELP (although its probably inevitable as always
) but what is 'keyboard masturbation'? I remember this expression being banded about in the seventies and eighties by music journos who couldn't be bothered to engage brain but I've never been exactly sure what it means. Does it mean too much keyboards in use or too much soloing? Just wondering.. |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 03:09
We should have a few of Big Five lists. For example, If we looked only at the British progressive rock and only to the period from 1968 to 1972 (some people say that it was THE time of Brit prog movement), I think if we can go with a time & space machine straight back at that time in the UK, I think that the Big 5 list have to look like this: Family Moody Blues Emerson, Lake and Palmer King Crimson Jethro Tull U.S. Big 5 list, at the same time (1968 - 1972), was ( imo ) : Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention Steve Miller Band Chicago Blood, Sweat & Tears Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 03:26
Usually when there's an impossible poll to vote on, it's impossible  ....... All brilliant bands...
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Posted By: Altairius
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 05:31
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Big 4 of classic and modern: King Crimson Genesis Yes Emerson, Lake & Palmer Marillion IQ Porcupine Tree Transatlantic |
Posted By: thwok
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 08:41
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I recognize the importance of ELP and Rush to the progressive rock world. I just don't like their music, especially ELP! I think putting some artist from the fringe is a brilliant idea, such as Zappa or The Soft Machine. ------------- I am the funkiest man on the planet! |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 08:55
| It seems that there are more bands - formed in post-modern era - who are waiting in line to enter the Big 5, than the bands from the golden decade. It is understandable, there are more progressive rock bands formed in last 20-25 yrs than it was in the late sixties & seventies. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 10:12
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 13:53
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Five or six, seven or eight? Anyways, the ring and the crown belongs to the Gentle Giant! ------------- |
Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 17:39
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Big 5 IMO: King Crimson Yes ELP Pink Floyd Mike Oldfield Personally: Yes, ELP, Renaissance, Camel and Rush. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 21:09
| Yeah, Mike Oldfield is often forgotten in this kind of discussions, and as far as I understand he was really huge back in the time, and his music is really wonderful. Perhaps one could argue that he wasn't really prog enough, but as with Pink Floyd, when I listen to him I like him because of the same reasons I like prog music itself. Besides, it doesn't get any proggier than 4 albums in a row with only epic songs (and one of those albums being a double album). |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 21:13
When a list of the best "modern" prog bands include two bands that began in the 80's (35 year ago), another that began in the 90's (25 years ago), and another one that began in the year 2000 (14 years ago)... it would seem to me that the genre is in some serious trouble. |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 26 2014 at 22:20
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I'd say: Jethro Tull Camel Gentle Giant Caravan Van der graaf ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 27 2014 at 00:09
Well said, my friend, well said.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 27 2014 at 11:14
Mike's music was way more "prog" than Floyd's! I don't think there was anything like Tubular Bells and Hergest Ridge at the time. I think Mannheim Steamroller (there's a New Age connection for you!) definitely took some cues from Mike. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: ultra plinian
Date Posted: June 27 2014 at 17:18
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I can't limit "A BIG LIST" to just five bands/artists. It's impossible. You can't list five without severely undermining the importance of the remaining most valuable contributors that's not included. I'd say go with the The BIG 10 of progressive rock bands that established and defined the genre between 1968 and 1978, and even then, you're still leaving out someone vital. I have a hard time not including Van Der Graaf Generator, Gentle Giant, Mahavishnu Orchestra and Mike Oldfield, but clearly you've got to draw a line somewhere. Otherwise, I'd make it 15 and maybe include one of the more obscure bands like Magma and Goblin that were also very influential. King Crimson Pink Floyd Genesis Yes Jethro Tull ELP Rush Camel Frank Zappa et al. Amon Düül II As for a MODERN BIG 10 list (bands/artists that began after 1978): Steven Wilson et al. Opeth Spock's Beard Queensr˙che Änglagård Marillion Dream Theatre Tool Riverside The Flower Kings ------------- "A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." -Tyrion Lannister from George R.R. Martin's http://www.westeros.org/" rel="nofollow - A Song of Ice and Fire |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 27 2014 at 21:02
Well, I wasn't born yet by the time of Tubular Bells, nor am I sure to know enough of music at the time, but it would seem to me that when it was released, Tubular Bells was like nothing people had heard before. At least not on a massive level. I could imagine it being something completley new and fresh. Perhaps even more so than The Moody Blues and King Crimson at their time. |