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The Role of Computers in Prog

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Topic: The Role of Computers in Prog
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Subject: The Role of Computers in Prog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:01
What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music? 

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques? 

A lot of very loaded questions but with the increasing prevalence of computer-enhanced music being generated today, I'm just searching for the insights and opinions of other music lovers with regards to this phenomenon. Obviously computers are here to stay, and computers have allowed a access to publication of one's musical ideas to a far larger segment of the population, but, overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing? Is the quality keeping up with the quantity? Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s? Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
  


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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/



Replies:
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:20
Computers are a-ok


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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:39
Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO

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Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:48
Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?That pretty much depends person to person. To me..on some instances it can sound quite robotic..yet sometimes it wud b beautiful...According to me it changes the feel of the music and voice..sometimes to gud effect..sometimes to bad.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:03
An example from another thread:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992). 
Studio manipulation has always been around, computers just made it easier.


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What?


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:07
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO
Don't agree wid ur third point...sometyms performing in studio widout prior rehearsing may help.
Otherwise


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:09
I listen to prog on a computer.

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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">An example from another thread:</span>


<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"></span>
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 </span><br style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992). </span><br style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
</span>

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Studio manipulation has always been around, c</span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">omputers just made it easier.</span>
Hendrix???



Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:10
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

 IMO


Not sure about it... After all, a band which wouldn't rehearse for a studio take may not be able to play their tunes on stage... Just sayin'...


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:12
Yes he wud hav done.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:24
The tools aren't the problem.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:31
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music?
They made the recording experience much more accessible to the likes of true artists. Unfortunately, they've become much more accessible to way too many zit-faced non-talented kids, so maybe we are even here. B
ut there really should be no double standards. Give everyone a chance.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
It's really just a question of recording techniques vs. musicianship (playing techniques), not artistic integrity. I believe that true art comes from the mind.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
I've come up with some pretty good experimental cuts back in my early teens, so if you have a problem with that, you better make a really good case against that.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Depends strictly on how these tracks are generated. As long as the user planned all the sounds (notes, chords, sound effects), then my respect would depend mainly on the material. Otherwise, it's either respect or no respect solely for the computer/computerized equipment.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techniques?
I don't know them personally (of course) but I bet they would give it a shot at least once.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

... overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing?
Again, I have no problem with the evolution of the recording techniques.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the quality keeping up with the quantity?
I don't understand the question.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?
It doesn't really matter what recording techniques you are using as long as your material has value to it.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
As far as music overall goes, I'm not seeing much potential in today's mainstream and underground/"underground" stuff as I found in the stuff from the 60's and 70's. As far as the evolution of recording techniques goes, again, I don't really care as long as the recording is potently done.

A computer is just a tool to me. The emotion factor should depend strongly on the artist, though sometimes I like to leave things to the computer (and give credit to myself for the "work" done ), which is like listening to somebody else ... but it's yours!  It isn't true art, but who's gonna know? But whether the cut is good or not depends on who is deciding.


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:






<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music?
They made the recording experience much more accessible to the likes of true artists. Unfortunately, they've become much more accessible to way too many zit-faced non-talented kids, so maybe we are even here. B</span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">ut there really should be no double standards. Give everyone a chance.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
It's really just a question of recording techniques vs. musicianship (playing techniques), not artistic integrity. I believe that true art comes from the mind.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
I've come up with some pretty good experimental cuts back in my early teens, so if you have a problem with that, you better make a really good case against that.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Depends strictly on how these tracks are generated. As long as the user planned all the sounds (notes, chords, sound effects), then my respect would depend mainly on the material. Otherwise, it's either respect or no respect solely for the computer/computerized equipment. <div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techniques?<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
I don't know them personally (of course) but I bet they would give it a shot at least once.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>... overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing?
Again, I have no problem with the evolution of the recording techniques.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Is the quality keeping up with the quantity?
I don't understand the question.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
It doesn't really matter what recording techniques you are using as long as your material has value to it.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
As far as music overall goes, I'm not seeing much potential in today's mainstream and underground/"underground" stuff as I found in the stuff from the 60's and 70's. As far as the evolution of recording techniques goes, again, I don't really care as long as the recording is potently done.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">A computer is just a tool to me. The emotion factor should depend strongly on the artist, though sometimes I like to leave things to the computer (and give credit to myself for the "work" done ), which is like listening to somebody else ... but it's yours!  It isn't true art, but who's gonna know? But whether the cut is good or not depends on who is deciding.</span>






I agree.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:48
^ Yeah, the span tags can really ruin a post.  You can just caret up (^) to my post for a quick reference in an edit.

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.
Can you make a case for that? Not playing the devil's advocate, just having a discussion.


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.
Does emotion really have anything to do with recording process (on the part of the producer and sound engineer)? Maybe on the part of the artist.


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb. 
Too much for one person to buy.

Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

sometyms performing in studio widout prior rehearsing may help.
OK, ... can you make a case for that?


Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 15:13
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO

well said man!


-------------
Progrockdude


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 18:29
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO

Ditto, like with everything else.


Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 19:03

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Can you make a case for that? Not playing the devil's advocate, just having a discussion.

Well I have recently seen a couple documentaries where I heard artists mention this...it was either Muscle Shoals Sound or Sound City by Dave Grohl documentary. As I said it seems a lost art, because people want everything now rather than take time. Only my opinion....


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Does emotion really have anything to do with recording process (on the part of the producer and sound engineer)? Maybe on the part of the artist.


I was mainly thinking of the artist, but you bring up a good one in that producer and engineer can be influenced by artist emotions good or bad...or none. In the WHOLE process I think some emotion is lost with computer usage...Maybe not for those that grew up with them, but for some of us yea...


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Too much for one person to buy.


Yes...I need to win the lotto!

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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: September 21 2014 at 20:24
There is very little music recorded with MIDI that I like.  It's a different story
with arpegiattors, or rhythm machines, or other computer manipuated
sound.  I'm not sure why MIDI performance seems so foreign.  I'm aware
that Phillip Glass uses it to compose.  It would be really interesting to find
out what recordings use it.  I'm not philosophically against it so much it's
just that I haven't found anything done with it yet that I find appealing.  


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 05:03
The significant change that computers have enabled in music is not in the professional studio, that's not to say they haven't affected a considerable change in a professional studio because they have, but where they have produced the most profound change is in the amateur studio. Here I am not just talking of the "bedroom musician" who creates music solely on PC or produces backing tracks to their guitar or keyboard accompaniment, but also the aspiring band who can now produce good quality demo recordings without using expensive professional studios.

Back in the day the purpose of a demo was to send to record labels in the hope of getting a recording contract. Bands would either record live, hire a professional studio, or record something themselves using a cassette-based home studio such as the Tascam Portastudio 414 or 424. 

These tiny little cassette-based units were cheap and easy to use but still required a degree of skill and ingenuity to get the most out of them. Limited to essentially 8 inputs (4 mono and 2 stereo) mixing down to only 4 tracks the operator had to carefully build-up the track with successive over-dubs and bounce-downs. All of this was done "live" with no automation, the amateur sound engineer/producer had to use all the skills of a professional but with extremely limited resources. The demos produced using the 414 and 424 were adequate as a showcase for the band but could not produce a saleable product, sure, demos were sold at gigs, by mail and from band websites, but they were just demos, for example, this following track demonstrates how versatile a Portastudio could be in capable hands (not mine) but also reveals the limitations of the system:



(recorded in 1999 using a Portastudio 424) 

With the advent of cheap digital home recording everything went up several notches. With the Portastudio 788 TASCAM produced the first 8-track 24-bit digital recorder (Digital Audio Workstation) that could record 8 tracks directly to hard disc which could then be used by the amateur producer to record their band without using a professional studio. It could also interface to a PC optically so these tracks could be transferred to PC based software DAW, now the number of tracks available was essentially unlimited, as was the amount of post-processing that could be applied. Now the home-producer could produce a demo that was almost comparable to a professionally produced demo - generally it still required some professional mastering to make it into a saleable item but it was a game-changer.

This next track was recorded in 2005 using a 788 and initially mixed on a PC using very inexpensive software. The drum track was recorded in a professional studio (to give us a solid backing track to record to), but all the remaining instruments and vocals were recorded on the 788 in a disused cow shed and various band-member's homes. If I recall correctly this particular track is composed of 28 individually recorded tracks including 8 for Becki's vocals alone, something that was inconceivable in a home studio five years earlier. From this a demo was produced that secured the band a recording contract, the quality of the demo tracks (even the vocals that were recorded using a Sure SM58) were deemed to be good enough to release after remixing and mastering in a professional studio:

(personally I don't care for the drum sound on this version, my original drum mix had a more rounded, 70s-prog feel to it, that wasn't crisp enough for the drummer so it was changed. Later someone asked why we'd used a drum machine when we had such a good drummer... LOL)

Now some 10 years later bands can achieve near-professional quality without the expense of using a professional studio, demos are no longer copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy cassettes that are passed around at gigs, they are now good enough to be sold alongside 'proper' studio-albums to the extent that the term demo has all but disappeared, along with the notion of being an unsigned band. This can only ever be seen as "a good thing".

Computers have liberated music and ripped-open the world of music recording. While we should never ignore all the bad things that producers can do with computers, we should really concentrate on all the good they are capable of. I get tired of all the comments about manipulation and auto-tune, a computer is just a tool for doing a task, it is not what it can do that is important, but what you can do with it. I am proud of what we achieved using a computer and a cheap DAW, just as I am proud of all the "bedroom" music I have made using computers.

Prog On Dudes.


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What?


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2014 at 23:34
Everything that can produce sounds it's legitimate

-------------
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 00:55
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music? 
Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques? 
A lot of very loaded questions but with the increasing prevalence of computer-enhanced music being generated today, I'm just searching for the insights and opinions of other music lovers with regards to this phenomenon. Obviously computers are here to stay, and computers have allowed a access to publication of one's musical ideas to a far larger segment of the population, but, overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing? Is the quality keeping up with the quantity? Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s? Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
  



Hello BrufordFreak, that's not an easy question to reply but here goes my best attempt :) hugs

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?

In general music recording studios always assisted bands/musicians in recording music to their best of their abilities. The system was more complicated and time delayed however it has not changed in this perspective, all was designed to bring and highlight the best from the tapes era to date.

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?

I understand where you come from however in this modern day I think the capability of musicians to record their own music brings creative freedom even more so compare to the 60’s or 70’s, these days most if not all music artists who made it in the music industry are pop related, this is also based on individualism, not a band, most of these artist don’t even play or write their own music. Also their music is heavily manipulated by loud bass tunes (not bass guitar), little or no real music instruments. The Fat Cat Suits in the Music Industry decided to sponsor i.e. sexy image instead of quality (also this makes talentless artists much easier to manage) people are sheep and due to MTV etc the youth follow what is on trend, this is dictated to them and they accept it as they do not know better. This is why the internet and methods of recording are very important and beneficial in reference to you topic.   

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?

Oh heck yeah, every musicians should be able to perform their songs live, even if they need to acquire 2 more guitarists to perform a song live, however most great recent bands don’t even get this chance because they are ignored. Considering that although we crave for the great old prog moozik days, we do NOT give the new ones a chance to prove themselves, dwelling on the old great ones.
Also no band sounds as good as a studio album which has been produced, pc or not in studio, but for any good band this doesn’t matter at all because for the fans or attendees there is no better euphoric loving experience as listening live, that’s a fantastic feeling way better than any perfect studio mastered album to be honest.

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques?

I believe all of them would opt for digital version no doubt. Also one can clearly hear and distinguish between i.e. acoustic drums or not among others. To be honest I think vocals benefit most from the digital era compared to instrumentals.

Again,


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 01:02
I most add due to the above music collaborations between artists are made easier. Opposed to being impossible   


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:21
What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music? 

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques?

Computers have no place in music.  It's a downgrade on quality if not for the simple fact that sound is being represented digitally.  Analog is much better and the limitations imposed upon the artist required the artist to play better, spend more time on their instrument which leads to more creative ideas. 

We are not getting better music in the modern age.  Computers are discouraging the youth culture from learning to play instruments.  It's a horrific situation when you see 300K kids bobbing to techno music.  We are at the lowest and darkest time in the history of music. 

Mozart, Mahler and Hendrix probably would have tried out computer music out of ignorance or curiosity.  They would have made worse music doing so

People can't stop from over using pro tools.  People can't stop eating salty greasy potato chips either.  Digital music has been a cancer to music.  The farther we move away from live playing and quality musicians interacting in real time the farther we move away from great music.

Music should be played by people, not computers.

Once you edit with a computer ... it's no longer the artist playing. 

I don't look down on artists using computers.  I understand why they do it.  Mainly they are like sheep who think they also need perfect sterile production values just like all the other sheep who believe the same thing.  Magazines like Progression that rate artists CD's on production values don't help. 

The best stuff was made before drum machines, digital music editing and pro tools.

Prog bands need to get out and play live.  Get back into offering more dynamic and less distortion and compression so the listener can feel and be moved by the music and not have it die on their ears due to over saturation.

Sorry to rain on the party.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:25
I am curious now, are you an artist/musician, Surrealist? If so, how do you record, mix and master your music?


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:34
It's an old discussion. Speaking of synths, somebody said that non-natural sound shouldn't be part of music, at least not inclassical music.
Regardless the fact that there are classical compositions for the Theremin, the only natural sounds that I know are rain, thunders, rolling stones, wind between the trees and so on. If you add percussion to the list, it's because you consider "natural" a man who hits a piece of wood with another. This is a device.
If devices built by man are natural, because man is part of nature, every device able to create a sound is natural as well. It can be a violin, a flute, a piano or even a computer thrown to the floor and recorded.

Give a try to artists like "Alio Die" who manipulates natural sounds produced by acoustic instruments and percussion with the electronics. 
Look at the last Battiato video on youtube, it's all electronics, and let us know what you think.

If you mean, instead, house, techno and this kind of dancing stuff, it's music, too, but to me it's not "art".
 


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:34
I'm just a listener like most.  But of course most everyone here is an artist and musician.  We all are.  But when I do mess around with music, I record on tape reel.. mix to a half track machine.  I agree with Jimmy Page, if you record things correctly the first time.. you don't need EQ.  If the room is correct to record in... ( a completely lost concept) then you don't need reverb either. 

Once you process your music.. it's processed. 

I think ultimately all music would be better non processed. 


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:37
...so you no longer run an analogue recording studio?

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What?


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...so you no longer run an analogue recording studio?


good question?


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:42
I have yet to hear a better rock band than Led Zeppelin.  Their silly Celebration Day is a disaster.  It's so over manipulated that the life has been stripped right out of the 1's and 0's.  Listen to that ... then listen to Song Remains the Same.  Full of mistakes and 1000 times for connecting to the listener.

Their have been no better prog bands in the digital age than 70's YES and GENESIS.  No better obscure prog bands than Gentle Giant, or Henry Cow. 

Pink Floyd's epic was recorded on analog tape machines as was ELP's classic. 

Think about how tight Gong played or Rush on Hemispheres.  It blew people away because it was that good.. even in the analog studio.  With digital, it's just expected now.. a big yawn.  A big roll of the eyes.  Who cares for another perfect album that dies on my ears.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:44
I still have a studio.. yes.. and it's a good one.  It's a great one.. but to release music on vinyl while everyone is listening to music on hand held digital phone.. well it doesn't make much sense.

So, yes, I still release on vinyl to about 5 people I know.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:47

Here we go again....
A lot of bark and no bite. Let's all make some wild accusations of which we have absolutely no proof of whatsoever. It just sounds 'righteous' to trash computers. The 2001 disease that'll have every musicians out there employing Hal to do 90% of his/her job.
Please go back and read Dean's earlier (bible length) post on this subject.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:50
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I have yet to hear a better rock band than Led Zeppelin.  Their silly Celebration Day is a disaster.  It's so over manipulated that the life has been stripped right out of the 1's and 0's.  Listen to that ... then listen to Song Remains the Same.  Full of mistakes and 1000 times for connecting to the listener.Their have been no better prog bands in the digital age than 70's YES and GENESIS.  No better obscure prog bands than Gentle Giant, or Henry Cow.  Pink Floyd's epic was recorded on analog tape machines as was ELP's classic.  Think about how tight Gong played or Rush on Hemispheres.  It blew people away because it was that good.. even in the analog studio.  With digital, it's just expected now.. a big yawn.  A big roll of the eyes.  Who cares for another perfect album that dies on my ears.

Surrealist, I have read that mastered albums inc. by the 70's greats are compressed and terrible, no bottom end etc, I believe this however my Animals album by Floyd re-mastered is most brilliant and I strongly believe it is brilliant.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:50
Btw I really really love music where mistakes are allowed - heck even condoned and subsequently used. You must be looking in all the wrong places though, because bands are still doing that. I guess you just have to step of the ol symph train in order to find that.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:51
We had a band come in last night that I have worked with.  Recorded everything live.  Two ambient mics in the back of the room as the major source of the sound recording.  Then what I do is go in very subtly with closer in miking to add to that for detail.  8 mics on the kit, two on the bass cabinet, two on the guitar cab, two on the Leslie, two on a Rhodes running into a 15" with a horn also.  4 mics on a percussionist.  Two mics on a vocalist. One direct and the other on a small PA to add texture.  All that submixed coming into a 16 track tape reel.  The mix is a piece of cake.  Takes 5 minutes to mix it down.  No EQ, no reverb, no computers or plug ins.  It sounds amazing.. but it needs to be played back on a quality system or it just sounds like other compressed digital nonsense.  I would post the session here but it would have no impact in a crap digital format.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:53
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I have yet to hear a better rock band than Led Zeppelin.  Their silly Celebration Day is a disaster.  It's so over manipulated that the life has been stripped right out of the 1's and 0's.  Listen to that ... then listen to Song Remains the Same.  Full of mistakes and 1000 times for connecting to the listener.Their have been no better prog bands in the digital age than 70's YES and GENESIS.  No better obscure prog bands than Gentle Giant, or Henry Cow.  Pink Floyd's epic was recorded on analog tape machines as was ELP's classic.  Think about how tight Gong played or Rush on Hemispheres.  It blew people away because it was that good.. even in the analog studio.  With digital, it's just expected now.. a big yawn.  A big roll of the eyes.  Who cares for another perfect album that dies on my ears.


Please do not yawn and stop giving the 70's bands too much credit and give more consideration to new bands, studio recordings or not, the tapes era is gone and this makes them no less better.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:59
I don't think the tape era is gone.. but it needs to be followed through with a mix to tape machine and then vinyl transfer without digital manipulation.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 03:59
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

We had a band come in last night that I have worked with.  Recorded everything live.  Two ambient mics in the back of the room as the major source of the sound recording.  Then what I do is go in very subtly with closer in miking to add to that for detail.  8 mics on the kit, two on the bass cabinet, two on the guitar cab, two on the Leslie, two on a Rhodes running into a 15" with a horn also.  4 mics on a percussionist.  Two mics on a vocalist. One direct and the other on a small PA to add texture.  All that submixed coming into a 16 track tape reel.  The mix is a piece of cake.  Takes 5 minutes to mix it down.  No EQ, no reverb, no computers or plug ins.  It sounds amazing.. but it needs to be played back on a quality system or it just sounds like other compressed digital nonsense.  I would post the session here but it would have no impact in a crap digital format.

I looked at your profile out of curiosity and you gave John Miller Studio Album, released in 2013 4 stars. Obviously this was recorded by modern technology.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:02
Bands are claiming to record analog then release on digital formats.  Might as well just record digitally. What is the point?

I haven't been moved emotionally by a prog band since they left tape machines. 


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:02
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I don't think the tape era is gone.. but it needs to be followed through with a mix to tape machine and then vinyl transfer without digital manipulation.

no studio in their right mind will use tapes common! really? There is nothing wrong with digital recording, manipulation and compression yes but recording is the best common?


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:05
I thought the recording was poor.. very poor, but I tried to listen through that to the compositions.  The keyboard playing was strong.  Not Miner's best work.  I think Tell A Vision was their better work.  They were kind enough to send me the music for a review and asked that I review it here.  I write reviews for other sites and mags from time to time under a different name.  


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:08
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I thought the recording was poor.. very poor, but I tried to listen through that to the compositions.  The keyboard playing was strong.  Not Miner's best work.  I think Tell A Vision was their better work.  They were kind enough to send me the music for a review and asked that I review it here.  I write reviews for other sites and mags from time to time under a different name.  


Fair enough, ok now name a band who released recently an album who used your preferred method old school of recording?


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:08
Digital is convenient and inexpensive at a base line level.  I've done a lot of digital recording.  It can sound ok.. but it doesn't get my hairs to raise or send chills down my spine. 

When I cue up a good vinyl cut side by side with the CD version.. it's laughable really. I always play the CD first, then let the listener hear the vinyl.  I have a quality vinyl set up though.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:10
I like how a lot of the 60's Verve records were recorded.  Often just ambient miking in a good room with everyone playing live. That's the way to do it.  Why can't Prog bands do that?


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:11
now there I disagree with you too, digital certainly listening via headphones with the mixing of instrumentals are positioned correctly, they give me chicken skin, may have the most euphoric overflowing layers, pauses and tempos. I see no difference in either.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:12
The problem is that most vinyl pressing plants are dumping whatever format comes in right into their computers then pressing to vinyl.  It's just silly.

There are plants that advertise, send us your CD and we will press it on Vinyl!  Are you F#$nking Kidding me?

It vinyl just TRENDY for hipsters?  Good lord.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:12
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I like how a lot of the 60's Verve records were recorded.  Often just ambient miking in a good room with everyone playing live. That's the way to do it.  Why can't Prog bands do that?


Thus you still record and master using tapes?


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:16
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The problem is that most vinyl pressing plants are dumping whatever format comes in right into their computers then pressing to vinyl.  It's just silly.

There are plants that advertise, send us your CD and we will press it on Vinyl!  Are you F#$nking Kidding me?

It vinyl just TRENDY for hipsters?  Good lord.
Please don't compare the worse of what you don't like with the best of what you do. It's too transparent to be have any valid meaning. Regardless of studio technology a recording has to be correctly mastered for the chosen format.


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What?


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:18
The problem with headphones is that you can't feel the music in your body.  The digital argument is that we can't hear below 35 hz or above 18Khz.  But what about what the body can feel at lower frequencies?  If I stand behind you and grab your shoulders.. I could rock you back and forth slowly and you would surely feel that.. but not be able to hear that.
Who knows about high frequencies that we might experience on our skin or hair that our ears can't hear.  Animals hear things in recordings we don't.. but I can't and won't rule out that I am still being affected outside of what my ears can hear.

I agree that headphones can be useful for mixing and soundstage placement.  But I prefer big high efficiency horn driven speakers to really feel the music.  I know it's not always accessible for many living in small quarters or flats.  That's a good reason to make friends with someone who has a proper set up.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:25
I still use tape machines for recording and mixdown.  I do that because it's better quality.  It's not cheaper, it's not more convenient at first glance.. but if you get a good take, then mixing IS easier and much more convenient and sounds much better.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:25
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The problem with headphones is that you can't feel the music in your body.  The digital argument is that we can't hear below 35 hz or above 18Khz.  But what about what the body can feel at lower frequencies?  If I stand behind you and grab your shoulders.. I could rock you back and forth slowly and you would surely feel that.. but not be able to hear that.Who knows about high frequencies that we might experience on our skin or hair that our ears can't hear.  Animals hear things in recordings we don't.. but I can't and won't rule out that I am still being affected outside of what my ears can hear.I agree that headphones can be useful for mixing and soundstage placement.  But I prefer big high efficiency horn driven speakers to really feel the music.  I know it's not always accessible for many living in small quarters or flats.  That's a good reason to make friends with someone who has a proper set up.

ok now you and I obviously do not see eye to eye here really, we have gone 360degees in terms of opposite opinion, headphones give the best listening experience, I hear all the notes and from where they come from, i.e. some from the bottom left, others above, while others go behind my head from one side to the other while other go from one side right across my face to the other side. Overflowing tunes coming together this feeling one cannot even get by B&W speakers.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:27
Surrealist, I am lost at your comments and have nothing further to say to you.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:31
If the choosen format is tape reel...  not cassette tapes which are awful... then you can do a straight transfer.  The best quality possible.  Think about it Dean... if you go on Ebay and look for original reel to reel releases from the age of the audiophile 60's and 70's... they sell for much more than mint vinyl pressings.  Why? because those that know.. know its' better.  The quality is there.. and it's understood for those really in touch.

I have a first generation copy of a 1974 Grateful Dead concert and it sounds amazing on reel to reel.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:34
Headphones is an experience.. but if you listen to music on a really good system, proper tube amp.. cartridge, good speakers that have a 15 inch woofer.. that is a good start.  If you get the chance to  experience that.. do so... you could bring in a couple vinyl records to a place the sells high end systems and most will have good rooms to listen.  It's a different more visceral experience.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:36
Surrealist, send us something to listen to prove your fact.


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:40
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The problem with headphones is that you can't feel the music in your body.  The digital argument is that we can't hear below 35 hz or above 18Khz.  But what about what the body can feel at lower frequencies?  If I stand behind you and grab your shoulders.. I could rock you back and forth slowly and you would surely feel that.. but not be able to hear that.Who knows about high frequencies that we might experience on our skin or hair that our ears can't hear.  Animals hear things in recordings we don't.. but I can't and won't rule out that I am still being affected outside of what my ears can hear.I agree that headphones can be useful for mixing and soundstage placement.  But I prefer big high efficiency horn driven speakers to really feel the music.  I know it's not always accessible for many living in small quarters or flats.  That's a good reason to make friends with someone who has a proper set up.

ok now you and I obviously do not see eye to eye here really, we have gone 360degees in terms of opposite opinion, headphones give the best listening experience, I hear all the notes and from where they come from, i.e. some from the bottom left, others above, while others go behind my head from one side to the other while other go from one side right across my face to the other side. Overflowing tunes coming together this feeling one cannot even get by B&W speakers.
I listen to my music using earphones. I believe my experience is complete and i miss nothing.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:41
I would love to...
But anything posted here would be digitized into the lowest format.. MP3 etc. 
I could send you a vinyl record and a complete stereo system for Christmas!

Think of it this way... if you go into a digital photography with a magnifying glass.. eventually you will see squares.. pixels.
It's essentially the same with sound.  With analog photography.. that doesn't happen.. you zoom in and everything just gets more and more interesting... same with analog recording.

I'm not trying to be argumentative.. just enlightening for a few who inspire the explore and venture into higher quality audio experience.


Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:44
Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

I listen to my music using earphones. I believe my experience is complete and i miss nothing.[/QUOTE]

When you go to a concert... and the music has enough bass and volume.. can't you feel that in your body? In your chest etc?

You can't get that using earphones.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:45
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The problem with headphones is that you can't feel the music in your body.  The digital argument is that we can't hear below 35 hz or above 18Khz.  But what about what the body can feel at lower frequencies?  If I stand behind you and grab your shoulders.. I could rock you back and forth slowly and you would surely feel that.. but not be able to hear that.
Who knows about high frequencies that we might experience on our skin or hair that our ears can't hear.  Animals hear things in recordings we don't.. but I can't and won't rule out that I am still being affected outside of what my ears can hear.

I agree that headphones can be useful for mixing and soundstage placement.  But I prefer big high efficiency horn driven speakers to really feel the music.  I know it's not always accessible for many living in small quarters or flats.  That's a good reason to make friends with someone who has a proper set up.
We've been through this before - vinyl cuts off at 20Hz and 20KHz, this is a feature of RIAA pre-emphasis that cannot be recovered with de-emphasis filters, any apparent subsonics you can feel are much higher frequency, (and any supersonics are at a much lower frequency), than you imagine they are.

For example: if you mix a 210Hz signal with a 220Hz signal you will "feel" a 5Hz beat frequency:

sin(210) + sin (220) = 2(sin((220+210)÷2) × cos((220-210)÷2)) = 2(sin((430)÷2) × cos((10)÷2)) =  2(sin(215) × cos(5))

This will happen off vinyl and off CD as both can happily reproduce the 210Hz and 220Hz tones, but neither of them can record a single 5Hz tone - it is physically impossible.


Also, as we have discussed before: you are not using "big high efficiency horn driven speakers", you are only using horn tweeters, a horn speaker that covers the full audio range would be the size of a house. High efficiency is immaterial to the listener, to design a balanced speaker you have compensate for the extra efficiency of a horn-tweeter in the design by attenuating the signal more - you cannot simply replace a dome tweeter with a horn without redesigning the cross-over network accordingly. Also horn speakers are NOT horn-driven, the horn is an acoustic amplifier, the driver is the transducer behind that,these are moving coils pushing a diaphragm just like any other speaker.


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What?


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:47
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

I listen to my music using earphones. I believe my experience is complete and i miss nothing.
When you go to a concert... and the music has enough bass and volume.. can't you feel that in your body? In your chest etc?You can't get that using earphones. [/QUOTE]
When you are at concert the vibe is different, this has nothing to do with the recording topic here nor listening experience. Everything sounds great when you are seeing a band perform live.


Posted By: addictedtoprog
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:50
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

I listen to my music using earphones. I believe my experience is complete and i miss nothing.
When you go to a concert... and the music has enough bass and volume.. can't you feel that in your body? In your chest etc?You can't get that using earphones. [/QUOTE] Im not lucky enough to have experienced any live concert..but still lucky being a progger and using whatever source i hav to listen to the music.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The problem with headphones is that you can't feel the music in your body.  The digital argument is that we can't hear below 35 hz or above 18Khz.  But what about what the body can feel at lower frequencies?  If I stand behind you and grab your shoulders.. I could rock you back and forth slowly and you would surely feel that.. but not be able to hear that.Who knows about high frequencies that we might experience on our skin or hair that our ears can't hear.  Animals hear things in recordings we don't.. but I can't and won't rule out that I am still being affected outside of what my ears can hear.I agree that headphones can be useful for mixing and soundstage placement.  But I prefer big high efficiency horn driven speakers to really feel the music.  I know it's not always accessible for many living in small quarters or flats.  That's a good reason to make friends with someone who has a proper set up.

We've been through this before - vinyl cuts off at 20Hz and 20KHz, this is a feature of RIAA pre-emphasis that cannot be recovered with de-emphasis filters, <span style="line-height: 1.2;">any apparent subsonics you can feel are much higher frequency, (and any supersonics are at a much lower frequency), than you imagine they are.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">For example: if you mix a 210Hz signal with a 220Hz signal you will "feel" a 5Hz beat frequency:</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
<b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-center;">sin(210) + sin (220) = 2(sin((220+210)÷2) × cos((220-210)÷2)) =<b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-center;"> 2(sin((430)÷2) × cos((10)÷2)) = <b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-center;"> 2(sin(215) × cos(5))
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">This will happen off vinyl and off CD as both can happily reproduce the 210Hz and 220Hz tones, but neither of them can record a single 5Hz tone - it is physically impossible.</span>
Also, as we have discussed before: you are not using "big high efficiency horn driven speakers", you are only using horn tweeters, a horn speaker that covers the full audio range would be the size of a house. High efficiency is immaterial to the listener, to design a balanced speaker you have compensate for the extra efficiency of a horn-tweeter in the design by attenuating the signal more - you cannot simply replace a dome tweeter with a horn without redesigning the cross-over network accordingly. Also horn speakers are NOT horn-driven, the horn is an acoustic amplifier, the driver is the transducer behind that,these are moving coils pushing a diaphragm just like any other speaker.
\
true plus maximum music per side on an LP is 15 minutes per side, thus limited.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 04:55
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I still have a studio.. yes.. and it's a good one.  It's a great one.. but to release music on vinyl while everyone is listening to music on hand held digital phone.. well it doesn't make much sense.

So, yes, I still release on vinyl to about 5 people I know.
You continue to confuse me Mr Not Given [I wish you would add your real name to your profile, I dislike referring to people by anonymous usernames - you've been posting here for two years and you and I have exchanged 1000s of words, we should be on first name terms by now Tongue] ... you have a niche service/product in a world that devours such things with a voracious appetite, vinyl has never been more popular in the last 20 years than it is now, analogue may not be king any more but it is respected and loved by a lot of people. Those people live in the 21st century, they want the benefits of both worlds, they don't want compromise and they don't want to live in the past, call them hipsters if you wish, but they are a significant market that could so easily be tapped into.

I can understand (and respect) why you defend analogue recording, some of the more esoteric skills are fast becoming a lost art - EQing for tape is a specialist skill, as is choosing the right tape and the right recording speed for the music you are recording, you cannot record onto tape without EQ (emphasis) and you cannot record onto tape without understanding the characteristics and limitations of the tape itself, such as its dynamic range and noise characteristics. This is no different to choosing the right film-stock when taking "analogue" photographs - you need to have an understanding of the grain, colouration and processing of the film to get the best out of it.

Similarly new esoteric skills are required in the digital studio, just as a digital photographer needs new skills to get the best out of the new medium, or an oil painter needs new skills when switching to acrylics. However, the core skills required to produce and engineer a great recording remain unchanged, the tools have changed but the requirement is the same.


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What?


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:01
damn, I seem to be one the only of the few nincompoops here, very happy to be using my real profile


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:05
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

If the choosen format is tape reel...  not cassette tapes which are awful... then you can do a straight transfer.  The best quality possible.  Think about it Dean... if you go on Ebay and look for original reel to reel releases from the age of the audiophile 60's and 70's... they sell for much more than mint vinyl pressings.  Why? because those that know.. know its' better.  The quality is there.. and it's understood for those really in touch.

I have a first generation copy of a 1974 Grateful Dead concert and it sounds amazing on reel to reel.
Erm, no. A domestic ¼" reel-to-reel tape running at 7½ in/s is not comparable to a ½" or 1" tape running at 15 in/s, the characteristics are different and they have different pre-emphasis and compression. 

Tape prices are high because of their rarity and their collectability. The prices that collectors will pay for anything is not a measure of quality.


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What?


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:07
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

damn, I seem to be one the only of the few nincompoops here, very happy to be using my real profile
I call you Sonia, never Kati. and never a ninny Wink


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What?


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:14
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

damn, I seem to be one the only of the few nincompoops here, very happy to be using my real profile

I call you Sonia, never Kati. and never a ninny Wink


Awww Dean, you are my utmost favorite grumpy, yes Bruford was not necessary classically or jazz trained unlike other drummers, among other things which you clearly pointed out that I was wrong lol   
All this said you are my adorable fav very grumpy one hugs


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:28
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I would love to...
But anything posted here would be digitized into the lowest format.. MP3 etc. 
I could send you a vinyl record and a complete stereo system for Christmas!

Think of it this way... if you go into a digital photography with a magnifying glass.. eventually you will see squares.. pixels.
It's essentially the same with sound.  With analog photography.. that doesn't happen.. you zoom in and everything just gets more and more interesting... same with analog recording.

I'm not trying to be argumentative.. just enlightening for a few who inspire the explore and venture into higher quality audio experience.
We've also been here before - with analogue photography this DOES happen... go over an analogue photograph with a magnifying glass and you will see the grain of the film-stock and the photographic paper (both add to the overall image, making it worse). As any analogue photographer will tell you there is a limit to how big you can blow up a 35mm negative, and that is dependant upon the film itself, its ISO rating, the exposure and the image recorded on to it. There is a limit to how much detail any analogue photograph can capture. Analogue is not turtles all the way down.

In the recording world this grain is the equivalent of noise, all systems have noise, that is an inescapable physical limitation of the real world. On vinyl this noise is around -50dB, on tape it is around -70dB, on the best professional 1" tape this can be as low as -100dB but never better. In the digital domain this is -98dB for 16-bit and -146dB for 24-bit. As you "zoom-in" the more this noise becomes apparent. 

No amount of high-end equipment can improve on the noise level that is fed into it, if your system has a -120dB noise-floor it will not make the noise from source any better, the noise adds, it can never subtract.


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 05:46
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

 I listen to my music using earphones. I believe my experience is complete and i miss nothing.
When you go to a concert... and the music has enough bass and volume.. can't you feel that in your body? In your chest etc?You can't get that using earphones.

When you are at concert the vibe is different, this has nothing to do with the recording topic here nor listening experience. Everything sounds great when you are seeing a band perform live.
Early recordings strived to recreate the live experience but it was soon realised that this was impossible (even for analogue recording). People like Les Paul and Tom Dowd took a different approach to this and made studio recordings that could only be made in a studio. For popular music this was a game-changer, now the studio was seen as something removed from the live setting of a concert hall, in the 60s Phil Spector and Joe Meek led the way and others soon followed.

Progressive Rock took this approach and ran with it. Now the problem was not how to reproduce a live experience in the studio but how to reproduce the studio experience in a live setting. Where once sheer volume was used to blast the audience, multichannel PAs were being employed so people could hear what was being played on stage.

Headphones were the key to listening to Progressive Rock at home, it is no coincidence that the biggest advances in headphone design occurred in the 1970s when "headphone" music was at its most popular. Now people are plugging top-end headphones into their iPlods, some even go the extra expense of buying portable headphone amplifiers designed to drive these medium-impedance headphones from low-impedance iPlods.


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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 06:10
Interesting posts Dean! It's nice to read some solid arguments. Smile


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 07:33
From a musicians' perspective - and one who uses a lot of computers - 

(1) Cost. Let's say I want a track with a decent Hammond organ on it and a Moog Modular. I can use VST instruments (Virtual Studio Technology) (Computer simulation) and it costs me a few hundred dollars. Or I can pay $40,000 just to get these two instruments. Which are totally unreliable, by the way (a Moog 55, that is.) 
(2) Then I think, right, I'll find a drummer. There are none in my area. So that'd involve me paying someone to sit in. Bring money. Or I can just ... use a VST instrument.
(3) Studio time. Look up how much studio time costs, folks. This is incidentally all done digitally nowadays, computers again. Doing what is done today on master tape would be exceptionally difficult.

If we all went back to using 1970's or even 1980's technology, there would be no prog albums made, as the audience for such music is now pretty small and most people prefer to either "appropriate" music off the internet, use download platforms as free radio stations and generally dislike paying for music, anyway. Piracy will eventually kill most decent music off, that's for sure, but it's also another post. Suffice it to say that it's pretty much impractical NOT to use computers in some way, shape or form, now.

You could take the argument back a generation and say "Do we really need amplified instruments ? " Musicians have nearly always embraced technology. So long as it's used well, it's fine. Plus. My keyboard player is in Finland, my guitarist is 15 miles away, we have never all met up but it's now possible to collaborate and play music together. 

Another point worth mentioning is that most people who listen to music now are listening to VST instruments. You are probably not hearing a Hammond C3, Fender Rhodes, Gretsch USA Custom drum kit or ARP 2600 synthesizer but a computer simulated or sampled version. It is, in a lot of cases, very difficult to tell the difference, unless you know what to look for. 


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 07:43
As for the "analogue vs digital" - a lot of people of a certain bent somehow seem to believe that analogue is better. 
So. Let's get out an old Revox tape recorder. Before recording, I have to make sure that the playback and record heads are correctly set up in three axes. To a fraction of a millimetre. I have to clean the heads carefully. I have to make sure the transport rollers are all OK and not worn. If anything goes out of synch, then it's an utter pain to set right, and expensive. 

Is the sound quality better ? Well. Subjectively yes. However, I can achieve the same effect with NONE of the problems by using a decent microphone (or DI) into a valve preamp and then passing the output.... directly into a PC. I can also run tape simulations which can actually put the warmth or crackles and pops and hiss back in, if I like. Generally, I don't. :-)

To suggest that a lot of 1970's albums were superbly recorded and sound wonderful is, er, nostalgia at best. If you listen to them with a proper musicians' trained ear, most are pretty amateurish. It's not until everyone moves away from analogue that mixing albums becomes easier and a more professional finish becomes possible. There are a lot of hi fi buffs still around who frankly talk rubbish, most of what they think they hear is purely psychological and can only be picked up on an oscilloscope. 

Pass the computer, please. 

However. There are some things PC's can't do.

It is extremely difficult to simulate brass or woodwind instrument (take this from a sax player who's been playing since 1976.) Some instruments are better played directly in.... to a computer. As Dean says in a post previously, the revolution has been in home studio technology.
Drums can still be problematic, but they're getting better and better.
And it can be very difficult to inject "energy" into some tracks. However, if you know what you're doing, it's possible to produce a good and interesting album using a home studio. The problem comes when musicians don't, or just slap something together.

There are some things, also, you can do in a home studio that you can't do with a PC, as well. Longer story, there. ;-)



Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 07:54
This is $8,200 - a REAL Moog 55 would be 3 to 4 times that, minimum.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 07:58

And this is $100.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:04
The Arturia Moog Modular V in the shot above is.....
More reliable
SLIGHTLY cheaper
Much easier to use
Never breaks down, it's a software program
Sounds almost exactly the same - it's endorsed by Moog, anyway
And it's one eightieth the price.

Can't be used on stage

But then again, y'see, a lot of people say "Do you have a Moog ? When will you be doing a gig near us ? "- without realising that most musicians make almost no money as people no longer pay for music..... so it's not worth buying a Moog to do a gig, as capital investment like that is just suicide. 

So the future of music will be
Computers are here to stay
The average musician nowadays has access to more stuff than in his wildest dreams of even 20 years ago
There'll be a lot more music
- which no one will pay for
Therefore there'll be less live gigs (anyone want to spend a fortune to have two men and a dog turn up ? ;-) )
But all this is for another post. ;-)

http://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/track/hin-und-zuruck-3 - when I wrote this track, I worked out that just for the first 5 minutes alone, to recreate it using real instruments would cost about $350k and be almost technically impossible. So far, I've sold less than 100 copies of the entire album. Commercial suicide if I don't use a computer. (Poverty if I do. ;-) ) 


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:07
http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/downloads/demos.html - bottom of the page, free demo of a Moog Modular. Lasts for about 30 days, I think. 

Now everyone can have one. And I think Moog only made 30 System 55's in the past. One of my friends nearly bought an old one that Tangerine Dream had been using. The choice was either to buy a house or a synthesizer. He chose the house. Then regretted it. ;-)


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:12
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/downloads/demos.html - bottom of the page, free demo of a Moog Modular. Lasts for about 30 days, I think. 

Now everyone can have one. And I think Moog only made 30 System 55's in the past. One of my friends nearly bought an old one that Tangerine Dream had been using. The choice was either to buy a house or a synthesizer. He chose the house. Then regretted it. ;-)

ClapLOL


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:14
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Surrealist, send us something to listen to prove your fact.

Again, have you anything to reply? I have not received any reply to this!


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:26
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Surrealist, send us something to listen to prove your fact.

Again, have you anything to reply? I have not received any reply to this!


I think he answered it here:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I would love to...
But anything posted here would be digitized into the lowest format.. MP3 etc. 
I could send you a vinyl record and a complete stereo system for Christmas!


I say you hold him to that promise. Cool


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It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:26
Ninja'd by the SteveEmbarrassed

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Surrealist, send us something to listen to prove your fact.

Again, have you anything to reply? I have not received any reply to this!


I think his point was that he couldn't, because it would entail Jootooob vids with their horrible sound, and that's not the way he rolls.
He does have a point though. Posting a vid from YouTube in order to make a point on sound quality is rather like serving paper wine to highlight the distinguished nuances of crimsonian red wine.


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:38
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Ninja'd by the SteveEmbarrassed


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Surrealist, send us something to listen to prove your fact.

Again, have you anything to reply? I have not received any reply to this!

I think his point was that he couldn't, because it would entail Jootooob vids with their horrible sound, and that's not the way he rolls.
He does have a point though. Posting a vid from YouTube in order to make a point on sound quality is rather like serving paper wine to highlight the distinguished nuances of crimsonian red wine.


yep it seems so, one cannot Papier-mâché into marble artwork unless i.e. one is a true artistic sculpture artist.


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:40
Smile

Afraid that's true. ;-)

I can tell the difference between MP3 320 and WAV formats, only just. I've been playing musical instruments since I was 10. I can tell when a note is 1/25th of a semitone out of tune. 

Believe you me, not many people can hear differences in music quality, except on Youtube vids. ;-)


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:45
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Ninja'd by the SteveEmbarrassed
We'll call it a tie.


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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:48
This is a Paiste 80 symphonic gong. $30,000. Only six made. The nearest one to me is about 6000 miles away.

So, I'm going to start my next album off with one. Do I 
(a) Spend $30k ? ($24k at Gongs Unlimited, bargain)
(b) then ship it across the Atlantic ?
(c) Hire one out, as if I could find one

or (d) USE A SAMPLED SOUND

- well, I wonder what the answer is there. ;-)

"What's this got to do about computers ? " Well, if I do use a sampled sound, someone has done the work for me, so long as it's good enough. If I did have a gong shipped over...... I'd just be hitting it with a beater *and then sampling the sound myself and putting it into the computer anyway*............ (doh)

So the difference in sound quality (negligable) is only something an "audiophile" would hear - or think he hears - in a live environment.

Live environments do not reproduce sound well. You get splashback off walls, reverb, reflection.... been to a gig with good sound quality recently ? So. What are the audiophiles on about ? They actually don't hear sound as well as they think. If you want to hear the instrument LIVE and not recorded in any way by any source, go to a recording studio, with a gong... yourself. Cost about $35k, all in, I should expect. ;-))))))

As I think I mentioned, bring on the computer. Bring on samples. Just use them well.



Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:51
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Ninja'd by the SteveEmbarrassed
We'll call it a tie.

Allright my friend - you're on


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 08:53
Smile
Good tie. ;-)


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:22
The thing I like the most about computers and their relationship to music making is how it has opened up the process of releasing music to just about anybody.  Lots of people complain that this results in a lot of crap, but it also results in a lot of ingenuity that would otherwise never have been allowed release.  The idea of music being "free" may harm those who seek to make a living from music (or at least cover their own costs), but the bright side of this is that hundreds of thousands of people are now recording and releasing music (cheaply, and for fun) with no commercial considerations at all, and this has allowed a lot of interesting stuff to seep through.  It takes a while to find it, but it's there.  And some of it is incredible.

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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:22
Smile Good post. ;-)


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:23
 Good day :-)


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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:28
Smile 


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:38
Talking about "computers in music" is too broad, we should be more specific. The discussion has wandered through things so diverse as using sampled or VST instruments vs "real" ones, actually playing an instrument or programming it and letting a computer do the playing, using a computer DAW as an aid in the composition process, analog vs digital in the recording and playback process, listening with headphones or "feeling the music in your body"... too many different subjects.

In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music".

There is no question that computers offer many benefits to musicians and do not imply music of worse or better quality. Having said that, I'm not a fan of excessively electronic music, and while I have no problem with a few computer generated sections, sequencer parts etc, I like the idea that a musician should play what he records. It's a different thing to use a VST Moog sound patch but play it on a controller keyboard yourself and recording it as an audio track than just writing the notes and other trigger messages on a MIDI track and letting the computer play it. I can understand the motivations for the latter but I prefer the former.

I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician".





Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:52
"
In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music"."
Yes, the argument is too broad. 

"I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician"."

Gerinski, absolutely. I know so many people like that that it's untrue. Luckily, they produce such bad music that after about four bars, you click on something else on the internet. ;-)


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:09
Ermm There were so many blues musicians back in the day who did not know what they were playing and yet we still call them musicians. Sequencers and drum machines and DAW's are just instruments. Your friend's music might be bad, but if he's in the business of creating music, I'd still class him as a musician.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:11
I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-)
It really is another post, to be honest. Possible earthquake, there ! Smile


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:25
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

So. What are the audiophiles on about ? They actually don't hear sound as well as they think. 
Thinking isn't one of their strong points either LOL










...sorry, couldn't resist. Embarrassed


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Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:39
I actually met one who had his house rewired to stop mains hum....... Smile


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:45
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-)
It really is another post, to be honest. Possible earthquake, there ! Smile
And a well-worn one I would think. I happen to like electronic music, though, if you couldn't tell. A lot of producers I like had skills outside of that, granted. Fun fact: electronic/hip-hop producer Flying Lotus is actually John Coltrane's grandnephew.

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music


Posted By: Davesax1965
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:47
Oh, I love that factoid, Polymorphia. ;-)


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:53
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"
In the past some would even have said that using a synth or a sequencer or an arpeggiator was "using a machine to generate music"."
Yes, the argument is too broad. 

"I have a friend who makes techno music with a DAW with a rhythm generator and he can not play the notes of Smoke On The Water on the 6th string of a guitar. He can not play absolutely any instrument, he sometimes triggers the notes to record on a crappy keyboard but he does not really know which notes, let alone chords, he is playing. I would have a hard time considering him "a musician"."

Gerinski, absolutely. I know so many people like that that it's untrue. Luckily, they produce such bad music that after about four bars, you click on something else on the internet. ;-)
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

I'd class him as a twiddler, Polymorphia. ;-)


 
I'm going to fess-up here. I'm not a musician and I will never call myself one, my playing skills are terrible and I have long since come to accept that I lack the necessary manual dexterity to ever be good with any instrument, whatever inherent natural skill it is that musicians have, I was born without it. I can get an instrument to make a sound but that is as far as it goes, even after months of practice I never got any better, even those who were kind enough and patient enough to try and teach me had to accept defeat. 

But I know music and I know where the notes are, I know what music should sound like and I know how to make the music I can imagine in my head appear on the screen and out through the speakers. When composing with a computer I am no twiddler but I will not call myself a composer either, I construct music, note by note, bar by bar, instrument by instrument - I am a constructor and a programmer, I know what I am and what my abilities (and limitations) are. Creating original music using a computer enabled me to achieve something that I could never do in the real world, and as I said back on page one, I'm rather proud of that.


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Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 17:11
DaveSax65,

Your points are well taken. It's really hard to make a great prog album today.  Anyone toying around with digital simulators, sure it's good fun, and so are video games.  Drummers who can groove in odd meter are a rarity.  The jazz guys won't do it because they are jazz guys and anything rock associated is looked down upon.  The rock guys want to do it but can't usually because they don't have the foot training to pull it off. 

Prog died when it lost it's foothold in the live world.  The great Prog bands could do it live.. and in the era before sampling, this was revered and respected.  Once drum machines came along and the 80's new wave bands starting bringing auto beats onto the stage and the record companies saw that these bands were drawing well... game over.

If you are listening to computer generated Prog, it's really no different than what is coming out of LA studios like Nicki Minjia or whatever. No one is playing anything,  It's all samples and bullsh*t.  Quantization of drums and bass are just standard protocol now.  Just get the notes down and fix it on the computer in pro tools or other silly digital editing software.  This is elevator music.  They used to call it Muzak ... the crap you would hear in the shopping mall.  The youth culture that once supported live interesting creative music is now going to techno festivals because the live music they see basically sucks... I mean typical local venue stuff.  Same old crap. 

So here is the deal...

Techno/ rap/ hip hop crap is now 80% of the market.  20% is still live music.  Of that 20% half of the bands are cover bands or tribute bands playing the same tired crap.  So now we have 10% of the market for original live music and that is having to cover ALL Genres.. rock, blues, jazz, classical, avant guard etc.  Then you try to post in youtube and 5 people view your page.  Your lost in the zillions of post of kids putting up Apple Garage Band crap that sounds perfectly produced but just dies when it hits your ears because it's completely dulled over and stripped on any life or feel.

You pay $1000 to book a decent venue for 3 quality prog acts and 20 people show up and all want a comp admittance because they slept with the drummer last week. 

Original live music is nearly dead.  Creative original live music is even more dead. 

Cover and tribute bands are nothing more than "paint by numbers".  In the local art scene here .... lots of painters doing different stuff... and everyone applauds their work and creativity.  But if you are in a band, these same people just want to dance to the hits or sing R and B or whatever and musicians are support to make sure everyone has a good time and just pander to the audience.



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:02
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Same old crap.  

So it appears. 


Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Techno/ rap/ hip hop crap is now 80% of the market. 
...or 5% if you use actual statistics instead of guesswork.


But let's not allow stupid things like facts and figures get in the way eh?


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