Genesis documentary
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Topic: Genesis documentary
Posted By: Hercules
Subject: Genesis documentary
Date Posted: October 04 2014 at 16:54
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Did anyone see this on BBC2 this evening? I'd be interested to hear other peoples' opinions on what it revealed to them. Basically, I felt Banks came out as a control freak who drove Hackett out; he was sort of airbrushed out of their history, except in a very minor role.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Replies:
Posted By: Darious
Date Posted: October 04 2014 at 17:11
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BBC2 caught me by surprise with this documentary tonight and I only encountered the ending, but it looked like a great documentary. Followed by Genesis top of the pops.. ------------- Writing about truth is a little bit like getting your dick out in public and hoping no one laughs (Steve Hogarth) |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: October 04 2014 at 17:18
It's very revealing. There was more to infer from what was NOT said than what was; the body language is fascinating at times. You could try iPlayer when the Top of the Pops has ended. Well worth it. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Darious wrote:Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 04 2014 at 17:49
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When they were all together the conversation was fairly stilted. I don't think Tony came across at all well. He didn't get his way with The Lamb so he got stroppy and he made sure he got more work on the albums than Steve so Steve buggered off. Steve got less of a mention than Ant in the whole thing - (although, that might just be my perception). When they were were talking about solo work Steve's stuff wasn't even mentioned. I guess it was never quite as popular as Gabriels or Collins'. ANyway, Tony would drive me out of any band. Surprised to see a certain child molester JK. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 04 2014 at 23:36
I can't wait to see it--think it is on Showtime this week---and it is interesting that what you say came out as it is pretty much common knowledge---Banks is the power in the group. Hackett's input on this lineup was very powerful and important no matter what Banks says---the music that came after Hackett was very good but with Hackett it was inspired.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 02:10
Yeah it pissed me off that Steves solo career was completely overlooked. I don't know if this was a case of the BBC just not bothering to cover it because it wasn't as high profile as Pete or Phil, or the controlling hand of Banks wanting to sideline Steve, but then not much was said about Tonys solo efforts either. Interestingly, and disappointly they completely skipped over the WAW/Seconds Out era, jumping from ATOTT to ATTWT with just s snippet of "Your own special way" This was of course the period where the politics really came between Banks and Hackett, and led to Hacketts departure. It's also arguaby the period when the band were at the height of their musical prowess as a prog rock band, so it's a shame they skipped over it. It was a pleasant eneough watch, but it didn't tell me anything I didn't know about the band. The very early footage was cool and it was interesting to see all the band sitting there together and the body language between them. I pretty much disagreed with the entire definition of prog rock that that woman gave. Whoever she was. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 03:02
| Certain things were completely skipped over ie the original drummer John Mayhew was not mentioned at all and neither was Calling All Stations most notably. Banks face was a picture when Hackett talked about his solo material - no love lost there obviously. Collins probably came out best and makes you realise that he got far too much stick (ho ho) for Genesis going in a pop direction, It was clear that Banks was very happy with having hit records. One thing that annoyed me though was no mention of any other prog bands and I would have liked to know their opinions on that and the movement in general. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 04:47
It is not a surprise here that Banks was always reluctant to accept Hackett's ideas for songs. Banks always wanted to keep control of the Genesis sound and direction. ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 08:37
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Steve on Twitter posted this: 'Thanks to all for your support re the documentary. By totally ignoring my solo career it fails to deliver the theme of "Together and Apart".' so not happy ! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 08:43
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Steve deserves better. I guarantee, even though his solo discography is inconsistent (and Lord, his `Please Don't Touch' is one of the least favourite albums I own), it's a lot more interesting and worthwhile than anything Tony Banks did away from Genesis. It probably rubs Tony the wrong way that Steve's now known for holding the prog Genesis flag while no-one really gives a s**t anymore about the pop version.
No chance any DVD/Bluray release of this doco might include more footage, such as all the things people have mentioned above as missing? |
Posted By: Floydian42
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 08:58
| Does anybody in the US know somewhere online I can watch this? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:02
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Isn't this coming out on DVD soon? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:11
1. i have no clue whatsoever!! and im American myself, but.... 2. Am i the first one who is telling you that the DVD/Blu-ray release may be extended?? oh, and its stupid to call the same documentary a different name. first "Together and Apart" and now "Sum of the Parts"?? seriously?! i didn't mention that before, but i did now!! just thought i want to let you guys know that. ------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:15
Most of you probably know this, but Three Sides Live is coming on DVD/BR in November. 
------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:30
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I thought it was really badly made and badly put together. Also I couldn't give a toss for what the two "experts" had to say, their presence seemed to be superfluous and unnecessary. After hearing me complain all the time my wife suggested I turn it off, and after 2 seconds thought, I did. Somehow I don't think I missed anything special. Dreadful programme.
------------- What? |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:38
So you didn't like it Dean?  The 'experts' were apalling. They didin't seem to know very much about anything let alone all things Genesisy. Maybe they should have got that w**ker Clarkeson in to wax on an on ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Zenbadger
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 10:06
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My favourite parts of the documentary... 1. The footage of Phil performing Who Dunnit? 2. The moment where Tony said he didn't like the Lamb story back then and he still doesn't today, whilst sitting next to Peter. 3. Steve Hackett giving his reasons for leaving to do solo work with a sarcastic "god forgive me guys" as the camera switches to show a very unimpressed Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford.. Hilarious! Worth watching this documentary just for that. 4. It was interesting to see that footage of the Roundhouse gig with Ant exists. Would love to see more!
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 12:23
How do you know if you didn't watch it all? It's like me writing off Bursting at the Seams and The Strawbs in general for over 20 years after hearing Part of the Union, which ranks amongst my worst errors. I thought it was incredibly revealing, despite some faults. I thought the two female "experts" were far more knowledgeable and positive than most pundits are about Genesis. But the complete failure to mention Hackett's solo career rankles. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 13:10
Do you need to watch something you are not enjoying all the way to the end to know you're not enjoying it? Chris Stewart, who played on those demos and some of G2R, wasn't mentioned, now a successful author surely he deserved some mention instead of the screen-time they gave to ex-public schoolboy Al 'the pub landlord' Murray. John Silver also played on G2R and was not mention either. Ant Philips's leaving over shadowed John Mayhew's departure - the way the programme was edited made it seem like Ant was replaced by Phil. (Yeah I know Ant said that in the programme). Not only was Hackett's solo career bypassed, so was his contribution to the band. All the "experts" (including the two females) had an alarming knack of stating the bleedin' obvious. I dunno, perhaps I just dislike the current BBC technique of piecing together documentary narration using (scripted, or at least spoon-fed) soundbites from talking head pundits of dubious credentials... sorry I don't recall her name, but how does the young lady (mid 30s? I'm calling that young) from the New Statesman know what the atmosphere was like in Charterhouse in the late 1960s? How does she know how (never) cool Genesis were in the ten or twelve years before she was even born? [I have since watched the whole thing on iPlayer, as I thought, I did not miss anything special]
------------- What? |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 13:20
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I thought it was okay and was certainly effective in revealing the group dynamic. There were a couple of times when Banks was speaking where the look of utter distaste on Gabriel's face was hilarious. My interest flagged when it moved on to the 80s pop stuff. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 13:35
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Haven't seen it, but based on the comments here I'm guessing a 5 member reunion is off the table. Oh well!
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 15:35
There is absolutely no hope whatsoever, which, although I love the band, is not a bad thing at all. Their time was then, they were greet, and that time has gone. Aside from some new clips, there was nothing particularly new about the band history, but Banks came across really badly, really unpleasant, actually. There is no way on earth he and Hackett would ever share a stage again. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: fudgenuts64
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 15:37
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I really wish they went into the Wind and Wuthering period. There was a moment where Hackett basically said, "I still don't want to get into it" about why he left. Seemed completely strange they skipped over Calling All Stations. Just goes to show how much Tony and Mike care about that part of the band, even though you know, it still happened. And yeah, Tony's solo career doesn't hold a candle to Hackett's, yet he still got time in the documentary. Such a shame as he really did some great stuff around the time Phil and Peter were coming into their prime.
------------- 
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 17:02
Being shown on Showtime October 10 8pm I understand----
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 17:04
Banks doesn't come across well ever talking about classic Genesis---there's a chip on his shoulder and such bitterness and it always comes thru---sad really.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 17:55
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...crying all the way to the bank... ------------- What? |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 00:29
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 00:45
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Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 01:12
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I expected The Documentary of Documentaries. A look at the small, insider details on the creation of the albums. I haven't watched it yet, but I wonder now: Is it worth it...? Speaking of: Did anyone watch that Kate Bush documentary? Fantastic!! Even though Kate wasn't interviewed, (though some of the speakers were just nobodies) I thought it was a great scope on things. She was an innovator, inspired by the Progressive Rock she heard from her brothers (mentions King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, Genesis (?) ). Her credit to Peter Gabriel in Babooshka (I believe she thanked him for 'supplying the glass'...?) ------------- Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 01:41
Strange in that Peter and Steve's solo careers are considered the best of the group to many fans and critics. I think in the long run, leaving Genesis was probably the best thing that could have happened to them artistically. I really don't see why Banks has to be a whiny little  about the whole thing. The guy was a dominant contributor in all the eras of the band and it's not like the got he short end of the stick.Too many people with too many problems.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 02:19
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Not a very well presented documentary, certainly, but I think still well worth a watch, if only for the footage of Ant with the band, the body language when they got all 5 of them together, and the fact that for me personally, I came away with a great deal of respect for Phil Collins. Nice too, to see contributions from Tony Stratton-Smith & Richard MacPhail (unsung heroes of the Genesis story)
Mike Rutherford & (especially) Tony Banks certainly came off worse & it could be interesting to see the un-cut version (if such a thing exists) to see if they are that bitter & cold toward Gabriel/Hackett, or if this is how the documentary was edited... People here have mentioned how ATOTT & WAW were virtually ignored - I wonder if this is a period none of them wanted to revisit or, if when they were interviewed about the period it all kicked off (in a polite English way, of course  ).
No, I think my main complaint about the programme is it showed me actually how good the later stuff I purport to dislike actually is... Damn them. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 02:40
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Have not seen and simply right now don't care to. Genesis sold out. They might as well be called Philesis ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 04:29
I thought Rutherford came out as more of a follower, influenced/dominated by Banks, than a genuinely unpleasant character; a sort of "go with the flow" type. Banks came out as petulant, domineering and dismissive, particularly towards Steve Hackett and, to a lesser extent, Peter Gabriel. But I have listened again to some of the later stuff which I have always hated and, much to my chagrin, it's not that bad at all. If they hadn't done the stuff up to Wind & Wuthering, or if they'd changed their name thereafter, I'd probably have been a fan. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: snowsnow
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 06:37
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At times when the five were being interviewed together you actually forgot Steve was there - mostly out of camera shot.
while I enjoy anything Genesis-wise I felt this was a lost opportunity. Wished they could have spent sometime discussing the superb W&W and less on their latter-day pop stuff. (IMHO) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 06:51
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Ant came over as a really nice guy. I hope he benefits from the programme and sells more albums as a result. The footage from the 1970 Roundhouse Atomic Sunrise gig was great, shame the soundtrack was dubbed. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:13
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No mention of John Mayhew at all, which I thought was a bit out of order, as he played the drums on the first real Genesis album. Seeing as he died a few years back, he should have got a mention IMO.
I met Ant and John at a Genesis convention years ago. Nice folks. The fact they skipped over the ATOTT and WAW era so quickly pissed me off a little. It's my favourite era of the band, and in previous interviews I've heard them all speak very positively of a ATOTT. I think they probably wanted to skip over that era so they could devote more time to the pop era. The worst era from most actual fans POV I expect, and I can't imagine many non Genesis fans bothering to sit through a 90 min documentary about the band to hear a bit of Invisible Touch. Some of the very early footage was good to see though. I don't think I'll be bothering with the next collectors box set/compilation. I think I have enough copies of Duke now...  ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:25
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Anyone who has read about Genesis won't learn anything new from this. Elsewhere Mayhew is credited with putting the band on a more professional footing. I was also surprised to see Sturmer playing 'Firth of Fifth' for the camera - Hackett's masterpiece! I love how Collins recruited Chester Thompson on the basis of 'Roxy and Elsewhere' - how did he distinguish him from Ralph Humphrey? I can't remember the name of the journalist, but at least he commented that Genesis had become clinical by the 80s, so it wasn't all celebration of their chart-topping period. Reunion? Not now, can't see it... |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 08:35
Very true, and as someone else pointed out: to add insult to injury, the makers of the program then had Sturmer play part of Steve's epic solo from Firth of Fifth! (Which Sturmer did beautifully, by the way, but HOW INSENSITIVE does a program maker get???) My added thoughts on all this: 1. Why didn't SELLING ENGLAND (my favourite Genesis album) get the same attention as FOXTROT or THE LAMB? 2. It's a shame the BBC failed to treat Genesis with the same respect as, for example, "Bowie in the 1970s". The Bowie documentary (first shown in 2012 or 1013, if I remember correctly) had people ACTUALLY ANALYSING THE MUSIC - people who understand such things. On the other hand, the Genesis doc. was mainly (as so often) about "band politics"... Those female presenters did their job fairly well - but why did they have random journalists, and stand-up comedians, bang on about their love for the band? Opportunity wasted! |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 09:06
i didn't see it yet but I read that Banks says Duke is his favorite album by the band--- He's been saying for years his personal favorite is W&W---and that it has some of his best and Hackett's best songs---guess once the decision was made by him to ignore Hackett for this doc---he had to make his fav album one by the 3 man line up.
(BTW---Hackett not being shown playing Firth solo makes the doc a not very good one--and I have worked on doc's.)
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Posted By: burningthecurve
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 10:06
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Hey everyone - I need some advice... I just found what looks to be PETER GABRIEL Peter Gabriel III (Rare original 1980 US Mercury promotional-only press pack comprising a 2-page press release, 2 pages of copies media articles and two 10" x 8" black & white publicity photographs).And the press release is on Mercury Records letter head and everything. I have been looking all over the internet and can't find a way to figure out what this thing is worth. lol.... Any ideas? Where would I go to get something like this appraised correctly... I live in San Francisco, Ca. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 10:33
| I haven't seen said documentary on the BBC, but I can only imagine how Hackett got slighted. I'm surprised he was even part of the documentaries for the 2006 CD remasters. As for Banks being a control freak, that's a given with the majority of the writing he did for Wind and Wuthering, Hackett's opus. Then again, Genesis was his and Gabriel's and Rutherford's baby from the start, so he had plenty to be possessive about. Hackett didn't help matters when he ripped And Then There Were Three a new one in a few interviews when it was released. He gave the lads ample resolve in carrying on without him. The one quote that really bugged me though was when Collins was asked why Hackett was no longer in the group. His response of "There were too many musicians in the band," or something to that effect, was smug, arrogant, and downright odd. He was barely a musician in his solo efforts, and that reality, I think, eventually caught up with him, guiding him into retirement. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 11:23
I have to believe items like this are market driven. Their only real value is in how much someone wants to possess it and thereby how much they are willing to pay. You may possess a one of a kind anything, but if no one else is interested in it it's value is exactly ZERO. Put it on eBay and see what the market will bare, my guess is maybe $25 - $50 tops. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 11:23
I'd see that in context with the rest of the documentary - Collins was being humorous & acting the fool I think to defuse what was an obviously tense reunion. ...and yes, I'd forgotten - Stuermer playing Firth Of Fifth? Hello?? Yes, he's a fantastic guitarist & did a fine job, but this really put the boot in with Hackett... "I know, we've ignored his entire solo career, how can we really insult him - ah yes - have his replacement play his most famous Genesis solo" -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 11:28
Sorry but it's funny cause it's true. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 13:11
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From Peter Hammill, on his Twitter account:
"A documentary about the career of Genesis/PG without a single mention of Stratton Smith or Charisma, eh? Not very classy...or accurate." ------------- jc |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 13:11
Well, you should see the documentary before you post such a comment, sorry, or, even, look at past threads on the site about them. I have said it before, and will say it until my last breath. The vast majority of three man Genesis material was created by just that...Three men. Banks really could not have made that clearer. Collins didn't even seriously contribute to the writing until Duke, and after that it was very much a collaboration. By all means accuse them of selling out. I don't, but you are perfectly entitled to. But at least do so with the facts in hand. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 13:13
This guy just never fails to make me love him. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 15:19
He was spot on, though. King, and no Strat? Staggering  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 18:09
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[QUOTE ...and yes, I'd forgotten - Stuermer playing Firth Of Fifth? Hello?? Yes, he's a fantastic guitarist & did a fine job, but this really put the boot in with Hackett... "I know, we've ignored his entire solo career, how can we really insult him - ah yes - have his replacement play his most famous Genesis solo"[/QUOTE] What amazed me was that Stuermer played it note perfect but with an almost complete absence of "feel" and with none of the emotion Hackett imparted. It was technically perfect but sterile. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 20:55
What amazed me was that Stuermer played it note perfect but with an almost complete absence of "feel" and with none of the emotion Hackett imparted. It was technically perfect but sterile.  My thoughts exactly------- |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 22:33
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My my, i cannot be stoofed dissing Stuermer as sterile?? come on!! As for PG he left circa 1974, major major influence but the work done without him was extraordinary too for 20++ years. Brilliant and Collins continues to get a bum rap, even when adding humour, sometimes in the past to smooth over Bank's acutely clumsy way with the media. Rutherford perhaps the most normal of the lot :-) These documentaries have worn thin surely by now... ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 02:58
I'm inclined to agree. Unless there is lots of previously unseen live and studio footage of the band at work, these films are not very intetesting. I love Genesis but the likes of Banks and Rutherford have little of interest to say. They look and speak like politicians, giving sanitised, rehearesed and evasive answers to questions put to them. Hackett, Gabriel, Collins and Phillips are far more intetesting to listen to. An unofficial doc purely from the perspective of these guys would be quite interesting ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 03:09
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^ Sonja has just reminded me that Gabriel name-checked Hackett and Phillips when accepting his Prog God award. In hindsight I suspect his comments about TV interviews may be an oblique reference to this documentary. ------------- What? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 05:25
Yes, if looks could kill.... I agree with others, Banks came over badly and very jealous of others solo success, although he tried to laugh it off. Interesting to hear that he wouldn't have let Gabriel dress up in the early days if he'd known in advance, even though Collins said it probably added a 0 to their earnings.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 05:30
Yes, if looks could kill... I agree with others that Banks didn't come across well. Although he tried to laugh it off he is obviously jealous of the greater solo success of Gabriel and Collins, also it was interesting to hear that he would not have let Gabriel dress up in the early days had he known in advance, even though Collins said it added a 0 to their earnings.
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 08:28
| the Collins "joke" about after Steve left---fewer musicians in the group--is actually not a joke--the 3 super successful guys not only get along they think their success is based on fewer guys--fewer arguments and more agreement about songs. All three have said as much over the years. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 09:13
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I really enjoyed that Gabriel award speech below, he seems like such a good guy. Re some other posts, I have to stick up a bit for Tony. I haven't seen this Doc yet but I have seen similar things written about him before. I have a hunch he's a good guy too who is just not quite as skilled as "the singers" at coming off with warmth and humor, a bit aloof, not able to always come up with the great line in an interview. Perhaps he's a bit introverted which can make one appear less warm when often that isn't the case. Maybe he has not treated the other members with as much affection as he should have, but I think in every great band you need a person who does "direct" and who does "get it done." As in the Floyd, with Roger. As highly as I think of the other 3 gentlemen, I do firmly believe the many accounts I've read that had Roger not "taken the wheel" as he did in the later 70s, you would not have had nearly the same legacy of achievement as now exists. Dave, and if I recall Nick too have basically admitted as much in interviews despite their resentments of his overbearing nature. As to the idea of Tony being jealous of the success of the singers, maybe, maybe not. But of course he should not be, because in my eyes he has a legacy just as great as theirs. I firmly believe he was most important single member of the Genesis legacy I admire and the least replaceable. Without any other single member the band can and did survive. Without Tony the band would have lost something critical to my own enjoyment, could there have been a Wind and Wuthering without Tony? I love his musical personality, his reserve, his great care of the sound in those days. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 09:21
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Great post Jim ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: altaeria
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 11:00
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The only phases that I am interested in hearing about now in more detail are the Wind-And-Wuthering and Calling-All-Stations eras. Everything else has already been elaborated on countless times.  |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 12:29
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Lets face it - the BBC were always going to have a black woman as an "Expert" - it's all very PC at the BBC.....
I watched it and was appalled that Selling England by the Pound was virtually skipped - as was most of the earlier interesting stuff - none of which I didn't already know!! I was also appalled by the fookin sh*te that genesis pedalled to mugs after W&W - hands up all you sheep that were fleeced when shelling out beer vouchers for ATTWT, D, A and the rest so appalling I'd rather go to watch a pantomime put on by the I.S.....And everybody is right - Rutherford & Banks obviously hate Hackett (probably because he didn't sell out and still produced music that he wanted to write - not just pop-sound-bites designed to part brain dead morons from their cash... Ahhh that's better.....Catharsis on the Forum... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 12:48
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I haven't seen it, but based on what I've read here, it appears that
Genesis (i.e. Tony and Mike, with Phil) are trying to distance
themselves from their "prog" legacy. These days, it's "cooler" to like
their early PG stuff, even though the pop 80s stuff was much more
commercially successful. Back when it was contemporary and popular, the
80s pop stuff was well received and respected by most. It stood out
amongst the fine competition 80s radio had to offer. Nowadays it's more commonplace to read opinions that treat that era as if it were a cancer that no one asked for and no one wanted, and that would probably gall me if I were part of its creation too. Tony, Mike and Phil put Genesis in everyone's household for about 10 years, and did it with generally good music that they can be proud of. How dare the proggers and nouveau tastemakers write off that period of their history like it was crap. Thus, it's my theory that Tony and Mike wish to redress that balance a bit - by putting more emphasis on Genesis's considerable pop legacy at the expense of their prog legacy, great though it is. Any documentary has to make hard choices as to what to leave in and what to leave out. Any such choices are bound to divide opinion. Now if I can just watch the damn thing I can see if I'm close to the mark or not. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 12:56
|
^ If you want to see it in the US you have to wait until Oct 10. It's been renamed 'Sum of All Parts' for US release but you have to subscribe to 'Showtime' to see it unfortunately http://www.sho.com/sho/reality-docs/titles/3412767/genesis---sum-of-the-parts#/index" rel="nofollow - http://www.sho.com/sho/reality-docs/titles/3412767/genesis---sum-of-the-parts#/index
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ramza1316" rel="nofollow - www.last.fm/user/ramza1316 https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845 |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 12:59
|
Somebody must have put it on u-tube surely! ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 13:12
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I have it marked on my calendar to watch Friday the 10th. on Showtime....I am not surprised by all the posts about the content and non-content of this documentary.
It would not surprise me if BBC did this on purpose to evoke more controversy within the Genesis topic, especially a reunion. Just more and more of what I read points to a reunion never happening, at least with all 5 members. Phil may tour but I think will be a solo tour. Hackett and PG will continue to tour so Tony and Mike are outside looking in...One would think they would push for a Genesis tour for one last bank deposit of big money before finally retiring. -------------   
|
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 13:15
That is an excellent post, Steve, and it occured to me that we really are all a bunch of trendy dismissive prog-snob f**kers!
It's strange that it's the proggers opinions that seems to carry more weight about Genesis these days than the poppers, even though we are SO small in number compared to those endless millions of people that embraced them in their 80's pop era. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 13:25
I mean, yeah, let's face it -- the Gabriel stuff is much richer in intellectual content. Maybe it does have more long-term staying power. But unfortunately (from Tony, Mike, and Phil's point of view), this adulation has come at the expense of the stature of their other stuff, which never really tried to be all that, but succeeded greatly on the turf it chose to play on. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 13:25
|
The documentary even shows the sex pistols and again gives us the "New wave Killed prog" argument - as we all know the REALLY BIG prog acts had already split or decided to make shed loads of cash....but in little holes the prog-genes were kept alive by intelligent musicians!!
Plenty of Good prog in the early eighties if you knew where to find it...... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 13:40
Aye - and Genesis - desperately tried to keep the older fans on-board by putting at least one longer prog-lite track on their newer stuff hoping to wring the most spondoolicks out of every new release...Money grabbing b*****ds...(and they were already very, very rich!!!) ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 15:30
| ^ didn't Rutherford say something like there was always a 13 minute song on even the later albums? I thought at the time that was stretching a point to say the least. Have cake and will eat. Yummy. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 15:42
|
That seems a little like Genesis albums by numbers. Just to prove that we're still prog we'll do a 'long one' on each album so everyone knows we're not one of those meer pop outfits. I was one of those that supported them when they decided to do short tracks on ATTWT as I could see that it could be (and was?) interesting and challenging for them. THen again when they did ABACAB and decided to throw away their usual way of writing - and it actually worked (not always) and again came up with some interesting songs. But, later on it just seemed a bunch of efforts at pop songs and a long song thrown in for good measure (whether it was any good or not) and bobs yer Genesis album. Hey presto some money to pay off the ex. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 17:47
| Genesis success in the 80's followed the same trajectory as Phil's career--no Phil no Genesis----he wrote most of the pop hits of the 80's or a least co-wrote them---of course they tied it in with a big stage show---they were a blend of pop and pop prog--(which is what Yes has wanted to do for years) ----but IMO---Collins success (nearly as big as Michael Jackson) had lot's of overflow for Genesis post Peter and Steve. And because the success is really based on Phil--you would think Tony (who was fairly prog at heart) would admit that the 70's made some magical music. As soon as Phil left there was no Genesis--- |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 19:27
I predicted that. I wasn't alone. Lots of people predicted that the older stuff would be timeless, and the pop-oriented stuff would go the way pop generally does. So, why was the prediction so opaque to Banks, Collins and Rutherford? They're troubled by it now? And if they are troubled by it, they could always alter course to something more serious music fans might value. I don't see where they're coming from. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 07 2014 at 21:35
| I just read a post on Face Book from Steve Hackett, in which he seems to have gotten many comments from fans about how upset they were about the way he was treated in this documentary. He was giving thanks and confirming that he did say a lot in the interviews, it's just that his parts didn't make the final cut, and he is indeed rather displeased with it. He actually stated that he wouldn't be offering it at his online store (though he would have the new compilation available). |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 08:40
|
I have my dvr set to record it for later viewing.....can't wait to see these sour looks on Bank's face.
I don't understand what this guy's problem is. Any prog fan or those who follow Genesis know his contributions to the band so why is he so negative about others in the band and just generally grumpy about their past.
Sounds like he thinks he's the only one in Genesis that mattered.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 09:47
How things have flipped around. In the late 80s I remember being infuriated by an interview with Genesis in Q magazine. The interviewer took the position that only a fool could fail to appreciate that the current version of Genesis was on an infinitely higher artistic level to the embarrassing and pretentious 70s output, and that anyone who listened to the Prog era (mostly early 70s students the writer suggested) had in effect been "had" and ought to have grown out of it. The Genesis pop era is largely ruined (for me at least) by the dreadful 80s production, particularly on albums like Invisible Touch. Not normally one to take cheap shots at Phil Collins (honest!) but that crashing drum sound he pioneered was used by nearly everyone in the 80s and I came to truly loathe it. It'll be interesting to see whether posterity comes down in favour of the Prog or the Pop era - seems to be veering towards Prog at the moment. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 10:07
I don't know. It seems to me that Mr. Banks comes off as very clinical and guarded with his remarks. It would be refreshing if he just let loose and unloaded his unguarded feelings on Hackett and the like. Lower the gloves already. He's thorough though about the music he's created. All in all, I think that Genesis was a sideline for him after 'Wuthering with his forays into film music and all. I kinda' get the feeling he's a frustrated John Williams-wannabee. Then again, I haven't perused some of the major interviews in print. |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 10:50
It seems that most people think of commercial success as something to be proud of, but I wouldn't agree with them as it obviously doesn't necessarily mean good music at all. For what I've read here Banks rather surprisingly thinks like the general people. I would like to know what is his opinion about his solo stuff as it evidently commercially was a total ruin! -------------  "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 11:12
This reminds me of going to see Steve Winwood a few years back. He cranked out a storming version of Spencer Davis' Gimme Some Lovin' on the Hammond Organ, then did Traffic's Dear Mr Fantasy complete with a majestic guitar solo. These were politely received by most of the crowd, but what they really went wild for was the 80s stuff like Bring Me a Higher Love.  ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 11:51
Oh man |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 13:47
I am a music snob for sure - but I have always been quietly pleased that the music I listen to is despised by the majority of uneducated brain-dead morons who unfortunately I have to share the planet with.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 14:19
| ^but how do you feel about genuine music snobs who think prog is for uneducated braindead morons? |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 15:14
Just curious but what kind of music do these music snobs listen to who think prog fans are brain dead...?
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 15:41
| Probably (umbrella-term) classical. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 17:05
edit: I confess I greatly prefer "Higher Love" to "Dear Mr Fantasy"  ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 17:07
|
Speaking of that "dreadful" 80s drum sound, I think Hugh Padgham has claimed credit for that. He was a protege of Steve Lillywhite, who had used a big drum sound on several of his works (e.g. Drums and Wires by XTC, 1979), and Hugh developed the idea on those early 80s Genesis albums. Phil was complicit I'm sure, but don't blame him entirely for that sound. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: fudgenuts64
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 17:33
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I "think" Phil and Peter first used it on Peter Gabriel 3 and Phil liked it enough to use it on everything else he did for the next few years EDIT: It was claimed by the two you mentioned and Peter and Phil. Gated reverb effect. -------------
|
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 03:26
Wasn't one theory that if you'd taken loads of coke (which a lot of people in the 80s music biz did obviously) then gated drums sounded fantastic. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 04:24
I had the exact opposite when I saw him at the Cropredy festival a few years back - the poppy stuff was received politely, but the 'oldies' got a huge reception -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 12:14
Well if they have a double first in astrophysics and pure mathematics and they like avant-garde classical music - they could possible assume that the rest of us are no-where near as educated.... And therefore must like a Genre that appeals to reasonably-educated plum-stains like myself.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 12:20
n.b. The above quote should be attributed to Cactus Choir, not me. I have never seen Mr. Winwood in concert.  |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 17:28
|
I absolutely adore Genesis, so I will be purchasing this documentary and 3-sides live on blu-ray for 2014 releases.
Glad to buy those cause they are worth it. What's not worth it is that ARKIVE 3cdset if you are a long time Genesis fan. Talk about filler.  ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 17:32
Well said Jośe. You are as right as rain I feel. Think I will piggyback onto your wonderful thoughts here. Thanks man. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 05:13
Fixed. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 06:32
|
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 20:39
| I've read something on Face Book that the transission of the documentary on the US is suposed to have a different edition to that of britain. It might just as well fix the problem of so little coverage of Steve. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 21:47
QUOTE=chopper]
  I don't know why but I find that so funny--so true.
|
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 21:55
I guess newbies will get a taste of Genesis member popi side projects. Oh yeah. Best if both worlds really. Blah! ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 11 2014 at 01:55
|
Well I watched the documentary and I have to say I rather enjoyed it very much. I thought the split between the 5/4 member era and 3 member eras was pretty equal, heavier to the 3 member era, but makes sense as that is the most popular era.
What I found interesting for each album was the number of #1 chartings of almost all the post PG albums were listed for UK. For sure once MTV came around, Genesis were gigantic in the US, but the UK made their albums #1. I can see how Hackett could be upset, but his solo material is not well known or popular, seems essentially it was just a continuation of what he was doing in Genesis, but without them. Whereas PG and Collins progressed into a more pop/rock oriented genre, opposite of what Genesis was doing. I did not realize how many solo albums Tony Banks had released. Seeing them all together you surely get the sense that PG and TB are still at odds, but it seems normal, I also did not get the sense that they were too keen to get back to the studio together let alone on stage....I suppose time will tell. What is very evident to me, and what the panel of guests conveyed was that Genesis are amazing, no surprise to me . A tremendously talented group of musicians that created amazing music and lyrics and that truly stand as a progressive rock band, who's music progressed thru time with prog at its roots.
I love all Genesis eras. -------------
|
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 11 2014 at 09:10
The very first album Steve Hackett did after leaving Genesis was Please Don't Touch. That album was as different as can be from Genesis. There is only one piece that sounds like Genesis, which is the title track. Spectral Mornings has quite an array of musical styles not heard on Genesis albums, including Japanese styled music and ragtime. Defector also has the same breadth of styles. Yes, it was the solo career most like spirit of Genesis simply because it was progressive and tinged with classical influences, but even the breadth of the classical styles were expanded. Till We Have Faces experiments with world music style percussion. He did whole albums that were nothing but classical guitar. He did whole albums that were of his compositions performed by an orchestra. He did a whole album of blues guitar (and not the typical Chicago style blues, more of a New Orleans style as I perceive it). The album Darktown had quite a bit of 90s style dissonances. To Watch the Storms and several albums thereafter continue the exploration of very diverse musical styles. True, his solo work was not well known or popular. However, his work with GTR was indeed so. |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: October 11 2014 at 09:54
|
The only flaw in the doc was that it wasn't twice as long. I enjoyed every minute of it, especially the interaction between the members. They each were able to inject a jab or two without being overtly rude, much like brothers would at a family reunion. I really appreciated how they included the solo careers into the mix so that the uninitiated could see the whole picture of their history. My only complaint is that they should've spent a couple more minutes on SEBTP, the album that finally made me perk up my ears and give them a fair listen back in 1976. Now perhaps the younger generation will better understand why so many of us love this unique, highly creative band so much. Well done. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |