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Lewian View Drop Down
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@Lorenzo: I appreciate your efforts and I learn a great deal doing more research prompted by the discussion here. I should disclose that I don't see myself as objective and unbiased. I am German and I have Jews among my friends. As a German I feel some responsibility, not personal responsibility for what happened in the past when I was not yet born, but responsibility against antisemitism, and a responsibility toward the Jews and their desire for their own state, which as rogerthat correctly wrote was made much stronger and more necessary through the actions of my country in the past. As such I feel strongly repelled by Hamas and any statement on the Arab side that denies the Jews their right to their own state. This will strongly limit my support for the Arab/Palestinian side as long as their leaders show this kind of view, despite being able to see the bad state in which Israeli actions left the Palestinians as you rightly point out (and for sure Israel doesn't have my support in this respect).

Regarding some details, disagreements remain. The decision of the UN in 1947 may or may not have been a mistake, surely there were reasons to believe that a bi-national state wouldn't work, as there are today. I am not in the position to know what would have happened so you may be right but then you may not.
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Palestinian society is very advanced and secular, and before 1948 it never had any problems with Jews.
This is not true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
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Hamas is the fruit of the radicalization of the conflict, but it does not represent the Palestinians
The last time Palestinians voted, in 2006, they gave Hamas a majority.

The whole issue of who has right to the land in connection with the situation before 1947 is a mess as obviously there was no Palestinian state, the area was Ottoman and then a British mandate, both colonial powers. The people saw themselves predominantly as Arabs as far as I know, not specifically as Palestinians. One source of problems is that after 1947 the Palestinians were also not welcome at many times in many Arab nations despite earlier dreams of a united Arab nation; partly this is due to the mismanagement of the colonial heritage by the British (other European nations would probably have been happy to contribute to the mess had they had the same power as the British at the time). A united state had been promised to the Arabs but was not granted to them partly because of mismanagement by Britain and the UN, partly because of Arab in-fighting. The majority of Israelis in Israel was strengthened also by a forced exodus of Jews from Arab countries after 1947. Now you are right, the Israelis have the power and the Palestinians are suppressed, but the Israelis have some reason to believe that they wouldn't be left in peace in a bi-national country that may seem to you from the outside as an optimal solution, but none of the two nations involved seems to want that.

That said, I have no better solution. Unhappy


Edited by Lewian - May 21 2021 at 17:21
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@Lorenzo. 809 people have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers since 1989. Do we just forget about this terrorism while beating down the Israelis for their plane and rocket attacks?


Steve,

If you define 800 deaths in 30 years as terrorism, how do you define a state, Israel, which kills more than 1000 Palestinians every year? Of which a third, or almost, children?

Or are only the Jewish dead count?

For me Palestinians and Israeli Jews count the same and in proportion, Israel makes 100 of deaths killed, Palestinian armed formations 1.

 


So, do we justify the Palestinian's terrorism because it has killed less people? Is this a case of so what? They just dabble in a little terrorism. The Israeli's terrorism is worse. What's the big deal?
 
While I understand your concerns, I find your views to be totally myopic and one sided. It takes two people to do the tango. It doesn't matter if one of the two is a less accomplished dancer.
 
Terrorism is terrorism. Violence is violence. Death is death. It's the mentality on both sides that's the problem. Not the land. The root cause of hatred and conflict is always more complicated then it appears.

Dear Steve, i try to explain my opinion.

In this whole thread, if you look, I have never talked about hatred of Jews towards Palestinians, or of Palestinians towards Jews.

There are two different peoples, two different religions, one sacred city, Jerusalem, which is the cause of everything.

I don't think there is hatred behind what's going on. Palestinian society is very advanced and secular, and before 1948 it never had any problems with Jews. Hamas is the fruit of the radicalization of the conflict, but it does not represent the Palestinians, who are not religious fanatics.

Israeli Jews went to Israel convinced that that land was theirs from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. They knew they were unwanted settlers, they knew the Arabs would attack them but they went there anyway, they got into the wolf's mouth. Why? Because driven by a nationalist ideology, Zionism, which, even if secular, in reality made the biblical tradition its own, and then because they were driven by the Shoah, and then because they knew they would be protected by Europe and the United States. The Arabs have tried to destroy them, as they expected, they have won the war and now, having won the war, they believe that they have the right to conquer all the land up to the Jordan River.

The only obstacle is the Palestinians: they are trying to make them live huddled in bantustans under their control.

And the last step will be to raze the esplanade of the mosque, because they believe that underneath are the foundations of the temple. 

The Palestinians strengthened their national identity with Israel's constitution, and Jordan went to great lengths to take control of the mosque esplanade. In a certain sense, the Palestinians are the Muslims who protect the esplanade of mosques from the Jews, who believe that the temple is down there.
They cannot leave, they will do everything to be able to enter the great mosque. Hamas fired rockets because israel desecrated the mosque, firing on the faithful.

The depth explanation for the conflict is archeology and religion.

There is also hatred, iok, t is formed by violence and war, but it is an effect, the Palestinians do not hate the Jews, and the Israeli Jews do not hate the Palestinians.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

@Lorenzo: I'm actually in favour of Jewish Against Occupation and many points that you make are valid and valuable, as I wrote before. A very valid point that you are making is also that Israel has more power to change things; on top of that, Israel is a democracy (not a perfect one, but which one is?), and in a democracy there is hope that a good number of people interested in peace and justice can make real change happen. This is actually something positive to say about Israel as opposed to most Arab states (not so positive obviously as long as a majority is behind actions that suppress other people and harm any prospect of peace, but then the Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006, and after that they didn't vote anymore as far as I know).

So I'm largely behind maybe the main thing that you are saying, but I still can't get around the double standards thing. So some Hamas representatives state X, some others state Y. In order to portray Hamas as a legitimate liberation movement (?) you say that X is what they really want and Y is only negotiating noise, not to be taken seriously. That's not a fact, it's an interpretation, and I am by far not as convinced as you are that they mean X not Y. Actually I rather think if they don't mean Y they better shouldn't say it, particularly given that Y is not something abstract but rather the expression of an intention to eradicate the Jews and their country from the map, but this doesn't serve, in your view, as a valid explanation for Israel behaving as if somebody wants to eradicate them from the map? On the other hand, the UN in your view "made a serious mistake" (once more not a fact but an interpretation; what should they have done instead by the way?) - which in your view apparently serves as a valid explanation/excuse for the Arabs rejecting a proposal that in the current situation would have been rather favourable for them (in your view actually Hamas now wants less than that) and as an excuse to start a war on Israel; however Israel's actions are, as far as I read you, not excused by anything.  Furthermore, you say repeatedly that the land is in fact the Palestinians'; once more an interpretation, not a fact. This is a very complex issue so I will not try to convince you otherwise. Personally I have no clear opinion on that, or rather let's say I don't think there is such a thing as an "objective right" for anybody on anything, rights are generally negotiated between people and don't exist in an abstract objective space. That said, I see how the claim of the Palestinians is justified, there is some sense in this, but there is also some sense in granting the Israelis their own state in that area, so once more, it's not for me to decide. Anyway, in supporting democrat Jews opposing expansive settlement policies and destruction of Palestinian homes, we are together. 

@Christian
I say that the UN made a big mistake because
1) I believe it an injustice that the UN assigned to a minority, the Jews, who were about 33% of the population, and almost all of them had just arrived, 56% of the land
2) from 1947 to today there has been a continuous war in that area.

The Jews were settlers, who arrived in that land between 1900 and 1947. I recognize that their desire to return to the land of their origins is legitimate, but since that land was not empty, but populated by Muslims, they should, in my opinion, try to integrate with them instead of wanting an exclusive, Jewish state. From there, the problem arises. Moreover, I read that certain currents of Zionism were in favor of coexistence with the Palestinians, they were not looking for a Jewish state: unfortunately it was not that type of Zionism that prevailed.

So, in my opinion, the Un resolution was a big mistake.

But today Israel exists, and nothing can turn history back. I abide by international law: Israel has the right to exist within the 1967 borders, but beyond those borders it is ILLEGAL to build colonies. And Israel is doing it. The Wall, for example, was also built beyond the 1967 borders, with the result of taking over Palestinian land. In this situation, it is even more hateful that Israel is asking Palestinians for recognition as a state: how can you recognize a state if its borders change every day, and every day Israel steals land from Palestinians. I say "steal" land because international law says it has no right to build colonies. So it's hateful, it's deeply unfair that Israel is asking for recognition while expanding its borders illegally. It is as if your neighbor walks into your house and occupies your kitchen and living room, and then asks you to be recognized. What would you answer to him? That it is he who does not recognize you! And that you are ready to recognize him if he falls within his boundaries, that is, if he returns to his home. The Palestinians have already declared that they recognize Israel, even as the occupation continued. What have they gained from it? Nothing. Today even Arab states such as Saudi Arabia have recognized Israel, did not place it as a condition for it to return to the 1967 borders, so now the end of the Palestinians is marked, they are a nation in danger of extinction.


You tell me: how do you know if Hamas wants to destroy or does not want to destroy Israel? They are opinions, interpretations. You are right.

But I say to you: what do the Palestinians think of Israel? Who want to destroy them. And they think it because they are doing it, day after day. They are expropriating East Jerusalem, they are shooting on the esplanade of the mosques: they are sacred places for them. And every day they become more and more controlled by Israel and fewer and fewer Palestinians can live there or go there to pray. This means destroying Palestine. Even the colonies: they steal the Palestinians' water sources, they destroy their villages.

Israel is already destroying the Palestinians.
So, if Hamas is willing to deal with Israel, a state that, with the facts on the ground, is destroying Palestine, should Israelis be scared to negotiate with Hamas for their statute?
What changes if Hamas wants or doesn't want to destroy Israel? Nothing, even if Hamas wanted to, Hamas wouldn't have the tools to do it.

Instead Israel has the tools to destroy Palestine and it does! 
The Palestinians know this on their own skin. We Europeans have an effect on reading the Hamas statute, because it wants to destroy Israel, but if we lived in the occupied Palestinian territories we would know that Israel does not use words, it uses facts to destroy the Palestinians.

The real reason why Israel does not negotiate or pretend to negotiate is that as I have already said, it has nothing to gain from the negotiations, the Palestinians only have requests, they cannot give them anything useful.
Peace? But Israel is not frightened of them, it prefers to invest in the Wall, which prevented the kamikaze attacks, and in the air defense of Hamas rockets, it wants to reach its goal, it prefers to conquer the land beyond the 1967 border and have the rockets of Hamas rather than giving the land to the Palestinians and, perhaps, having a peace.

The only solution today is a bi-national state, but Israel prefers to remain a Jewish state, and since it has the power, it will reduce the Palestinians in the West Bank to South Africa-style Bantustan.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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In this video, a Gazawi little girl talks about what happens in Gaza




Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 21 2021 at 15:01
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

What people should "learn from history" is far from clear, considering that the situation in Palestine from WWII is historically unique (every situation is but this even more so). I think it's actually quite arrogant to talk as if you knew better what should have been learnt than the people who were/are in fact in the situation to learn/apply what is learnt. If you want to condemn current Israeli policy you can well do that without lecturing the parties involved on what they should have learnt, according to your opinion. (Obviously involving the Nazis explicitly makes it even worse, actually grossly insulting, but not mentioning them doesn't really save the day; surely not only the Jews will guess what you actually have in mind.)

Ok, is it safe to say that if both Israelis and Palestinians fail to learn from the mistakes of history then they will repeat them!? History is our only teacher.

You can say what you like, but I don't think it is appropriate that somebody from outside tells people in the thick of things that they "failed to learn from history". History teaches many lessons, most of them ambiguous though. As teacher it is very incomplete, critical thought is also required, and knowledge about what makes situation X different from situation Y in the past.
I think we're getting into a silly debate. History cannot teach anything to anyone if they don't want to learn. That's as much as I'll bend to your argument.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

What people should "learn from history" is far from clear, considering that the situation in Palestine from WWII is historically unique (every situation is but this even more so). I think it's actually quite arrogant to talk as if you knew better what should have been learnt than the people who were/are in fact in the situation to learn/apply what is learnt. If you want to condemn current Israeli policy you can well do that without lecturing the parties involved on what they should have learnt, according to your opinion. (Obviously involving the Nazis explicitly makes it even worse, actually grossly insulting, but not mentioning them doesn't really save the day; surely not only the Jews will guess what you actually have in mind.)

Ok, is it safe to say that if both Israelis and Palestinians fail to learn from the mistakes of history then they will repeat them!? History is our only teacher.

You can say what you like, but I don't think it is appropriate that somebody from outside tells people in the thick of things that they "failed to learn from history". History teaches many lessons, most of them ambiguous though. As teacher it is very incomplete, critical thought is also required, and knowledge about what makes situation X different from situation Y in the past.
I think we're getting into a silly debate. History cannot teach anything to anyone if they don't want to learn. That's as much as I'll bend to your argument.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Would it be more appropriate to say that the Israelis learned nothing from history when it comes to violations of a Palestinian's civil rights, instead of bringing up the Nazi atrocities?

What people should "learn from history" is far from clear, considering that the situation in Palestine from WWII is historically unique (every situation is but this even more so). I think it's actually quite arrogant to talk as if you knew better what should have been learnt than the people who were/are in fact in the situation to learn/apply what is learnt. If you want to condemn current Israeli policy you can well do that without lecturing the parties involved on what they should have learnt, according to your opinion. (Obviously involving the Nazis explicitly makes it even worse, actually grossly insulting, but not mentioning them doesn't really save the day; surely not only the Jews will guess what you actually have in mind.)

Ok, is it safe to say that if both Israelis and Palestinians fail to learn from the mistakes of history then they will repeat them!? History is our only teacher.

You can say what you like, but I don't think it is appropriate that somebody from outside tells people in the thick of things that they "failed to learn from history". History teaches many lessons, most of them ambiguous though. As teacher it is very incomplete, critical thought is also required, and knowledge about what makes situation X different from situation Y in the past.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think we proved, in a microcosm on this thread, why this dilemma will never be solved. Because the vested interests of the opposing groups (and the external groups that support them) cannot or will not come up with an equitable solution for both sides. Because, really, there is no equitable solution for both sides, given the disparity of each opposing groups' demands.
Like any other political thread, this one accomplishes nothing as far resolving an incredibly tangled problem. Sides are drawn and members argue their positions to the death. That's all. So yes, it is a microcosm.
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:


Great news, now I am happy and proud to have you as a friend. I am sure there is a lot we have in common. Arguing is fine but by golly, it shows the drawbacks of going too fast and not reading every word. That is why I try to have a paper and pen handy in order to write down points made by any side (lesson two in History class) . But all is too quick, too knee-jerk reaction which we are all guilty of because of the world we live in. Ted Koppel was asked upon retirement how he saw the future of online media and he was deeply worried his reply: The basics of journalism is to look at the W5 , Who , what , where, when and why. The first 4 are pretty factual (in a crime scene the first thing determined is When and Where. Who and what can be a little more complicated . But in today's lightning quick world, the Why is often of no interest as it takes way too much time, effort and research to figure it out, sometimes never even getting close to the truth. In the end, no ones has PATIENCE to wait. I am glad we had the patience to solve our rather silly argument . 
Sincerely and with extended hand (Covid free) LOL.      Thomas 

Likewise.  Ha, wish we could shake hands sometime soon.  Cry
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Indeed. That is why I dislike the Internet as the tendency to skip over words is immense. But I did write it , right after the Waters comment but nobody picked up on it. Perhaps I should have put in BOLD. LOL

Nevermind, we're good now. I am sorry.

Great news, now I am happy and proud to have you as a friend. I am sure there is a lot we have in common. Arguing is fine but by golly, it shows the drawbacks of going too fast and not reading every word. That is why I try to have a paper and pen handy in order to write down points made by any side (lesson two in History class) . But all is too quick, too knee-jerk reaction which we are all guilty of because of the world we live in. Ted Koppel was asked upon retirement how he saw the future of online media and he was deeply worried in  his reply: The basics of journalism is to look at the W5 , Who , what , where, when and why. The first 4 are pretty factual (in a crime scene the first thing determined is When and Where. Who and what can be a little more complicated . But in today's lightning quick world, the Why is often of no interest as it takes way too much time, effort and research to figure it out, sometimes never even getting close to the truth. In the end, no ones has PATIENCE to wait. I am glad we had the patience to solve our rather silly argument . 
Sincerely and with extended hand (Covid free) LOL.      Thomas 


Edited by tszirmay - May 21 2021 at 09:40
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Actually I don't find your use of English "flawed". But knowing lots of languages has (or is said to have) some drawbacks, which is a puny detail considering its huge benefits. Even I, as a bilingual, very occasionally transfer my Turkish into my English in very subtle ways.

No, I think what happened here is two people writing with a context in mind that was clear in their head but which wasn't clear to the other party from just reading the comment.  Happens. 
Have you heard the old saying? British and Americans are separated by a common language. LOL So, imagine the confusion that sometimes arises between people where English is someone's second language. 

Edited by SteveG - May 21 2021 at 09:37
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Actually I don't find your use of English "flawed". But knowing lots of languages has (or is said to have) some drawbacks, which is a puny detail considering its huge benefits. Even I, as a bilingual, very occasionally transfer my Turkish into my English in very subtle ways.

No, I think what happened here is two people writing with a context in mind that was clear in their head but which wasn't clear to the other party from just reading the comment.  Happens. 
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Indeed. That is why I dislike the Internet as the tendency to skip over words is immense. But I did write it , right after the Waters comment but nobody picked up on it. Perhaps I should have put in BOLD. LOL

Nevermind, we're good now. I am sorry.
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Actually I don't find your use of English "flawed". But knowing lots of languages has (or is said to have) some drawbacks, which is a puny detail considering its huge benefits. Even I, as a bilingual, very occasionally transfer my Turkish into my English in very subtle ways.

Edited by Shadowyzard - May 21 2021 at 09:28
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

I never said the YOU want Israel to vanish, nowhere. I only stated that many millions fondly wish for that to happen. You are way to intelligent to fall in that stupid rabbit- hole. But getting angry with me serves no purpose as I take NO sides , I am like the Swiss , I look at my watch and eat chocolate/cheese. 

And who is the many millions and what purpose does that serve in an argument here where there's nobody from Hamas or ISIS here?  Why could you not have clarified that before when I asked you about that statement again and again?  No, seriously, I thought you just accused all of us other than the Jews in the thread of asking Jews to leave.  And I am not alone.  Steve responded in the same manner.  Hopefully you now understand why I was so infuriated with you because I thought that was very irritating to put it mildly.

NOW I AM ANGRY! I ASKED "WHO IS US" in my post , look it up. 

I didn't understand that that's what you were referring to.  Wow.  Perils of internet communication 101.

Indeed. That is why I dislike the Internet as the tendency to skip over words is immense. But I did write it , right after the Waters comment but nobody picked up on it. Perhaps I should have put in BOLD. LOL
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Thomas. Are you the guy that speaks 11 different languages? I remember I was very much impressed by it, and it was you. Correct?

Your English is very good, but perhaps speaking 11 different languages might result in some ambivalent situations? I also got you wrong here on the first page, I guess.

Plus, we need some British (preferably English) contributors here. We can never reach their "bests" in English. Wink

Also, I believe you read stuff a lot, but it doesn't mean you can express yourself in written language perfectly on the internet. We, people in our 20s, 30s; are more lucky in that. (I'm 40, though). As we are doing the "forum work" perhaps since our adolescence.

I speak 7 FLUENTLY , starting very very young , its not a talent but the power of youth. I am conversational in 4 others. I do not get confused in English , so no, there are no ambivalent situations. maybe looking at my reviews could alter the perception that I have any problem in the language of Shakespeare! 

Happens.  Both of us misconstrued each other. Embarrassed Gosh.
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Points: 6673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:23
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Thomas. Are you the guy that speaks 11 different languages? I remember I was very much impressed by it, and it was you. Correct?

Your English is very good, but perhaps speaking 11 different languages might result in some ambivalent situations? I also got you wrong here on the first page, I guess.

Plus, we need some British (preferably English) contributors here. We can never reach their "bests" in English. Wink

Also, I believe you read stuff a lot, but it doesn't mean you can express yourself in written language perfectly on the internet. We, people in our 20s, 30s; are more lucky in that. (I'm 40, though). As we are doing the "forum work" perhaps since our adolescence.

I speak 7 FLUENTLY , starting very very young , its not a talent but the power of youth. I am conversational in 4 others. I do not get confused in English , so no, there are no ambivalent situations. maybe looking at my reviews could alter the perception that I have any problem in the language of Shakespeare! 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Joined: February 24 2020
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:23
"What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryin' to make his way home?"

Yeeeeah, yeaaah... lalalala laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2021 at 09:21
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

I never said the YOU want Israel to vanish, nowhere. I only stated that many millions fondly wish for that to happen. You are way to intelligent to fall in that stupid rabbit- hole. But getting angry with me serves no purpose as I take NO sides , I am like the Swiss , I look at my watch and eat chocolate/cheese. 

And who is the many millions and what purpose does that serve in an argument here where there's nobody from Hamas or ISIS here?  Why could you not have clarified that before when I asked you about that statement again and again?  No, seriously, I thought you just accused all of us other than the Jews in the thread of asking Jews to leave.  And I am not alone.  Steve responded in the same manner.  Hopefully you now understand why I was so infuriated with you because I thought that was very irritating to put it mildly.

NOW I AM ANGRY! I ASKED "WHO IS US" in my post , look it up. 

I didn't understand that that's what you were referring to.  Wow.  Perils of internet communication 101.
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