Do you like Never Mind the Bollocks?

^^ Indeed. I always regarded punk as a US invention. It only became synonomous with England (mostly London) because of the Vivien Westwood fashions that accompanied the Sex Pistols, and of course the classic British moral outrage, that the middle classes displayed in reaction to it.IMO.

Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: I always liked it. I've read numerous critiques by idiot journalists who harp on about it's cultural significance, in a similar way they did over Nirvanas 'Nevermind' (which is clearly musically superior) Lets not lose grip of the rope here; it's a ramshackle collection of simplistic rock 'n' roll songs, by a gang of virtually talentless kids. Lets take it for what it is; a bit of fun. I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head there, Blacksword; to me (and I know many will disagree with me) The Sex Pistols were a 4th rate (bad) pub heavy metal band with a clever manager; NMTB was written, played & produced badly & to these ears had virtually no redeeming features whatsoever - especially when compared to debut albums by The Clash, The Stranglers, The Buzzcocks & even to an extent Souixie & The Banshees. But that's probably just me...

Agreed. The Pistols were probably the worst punk band, to have ever made a name for themselves, but they probably captured, what we believed to be, the punk spirit in the UK, at the time. The Clash were not particularly offensive, nor were Souixsie & the banshees. The Stranglers (not punk, but hey lets not open that can of worms) were pretty obnoxious, but were too 'clever' and poetic to be punk! Same goes for Killing Joke a few years later.

The Pistols were crass and crap through and through, and lived up to McLarens philosophy that a band that cant play, is better than a band that can. But then, old Malcolm was always something of a d!ck.

I have no problem with punk generally. There is a lot of punk I'm quite partial to, even now, but I just cant stand middle class, middle aged music critics in hemp shirts and John Lennon glasses, harping on about it's cultural significance or artistic worth. It was mostly sh*t. Get over it.

I've always had this feeling that Punk was completely fabricated as a direct result of the failure of The Wombles to conquer the world.

^ The Pistols and early punk were a hugely different thing in the UK than in the US.

Punk was never a social movement or very visable trend in the US except in a few big cities. In the US, The Pistols were mostly a curiosity with only a few hipster college students getting into what they were doing.

Edited by Easy Money - February 12 2009 at 21:22

In the mid 80s in San Francisco there was a post hardcore scene with a strong prog-rock influence, some of the bands included Victims Family, Crash n Burn, Hello Kitty on Ice, No Means No (from Canada), Slovenly (LA) Rhythm Pigs (Texas) as well as Nuerosis (on PA) and Faith No More.

Edited by Easy Money - February 12 2009 at 21:11

Also, I recommended this to The Miracle via PM, but anyone who wants to hear just how forward thinking and progressive punk can get need only listen to:

Refused - The Shape of Punk to Come

^ It's down to context - at the time of its release Steve is correct in saying that Never Mind The Bollocks, Here's The Sex Pistols was not about the music - at the time it would not have mattered what was on the record because the music simply wasn't the point of it - it was the energy, the anger, the frustration and, yes, the fashion, but also remember that by late '77 the Punk scene in the UK was practically over (76 was the year of Punk) - NMTBHTSP was release at the end of Punk, not the beginning - the Pistols split-up three months later - music was already moving on and all it took with it was the fashion and trendy ethos of Punk, but none of it's ideology, none of it's anger and very little of it's music - what followed was a watered-down second wave of Punk that quickly became radio-friendly New Wave - yet NMTBHTSP was the most anticipated release of '77 because of the controversy surrounding it, not because of what was on it, it was actually "old hat" by then - the people who bought it and listened to it couldn't have cared less whether it had 2 chords or 12 as long as you could gob and pogo along to it.

mystic fred wrote: mithrandir wrote: I don't care for the Pistols, but I love PiL,    i agree - John Lydon's material has matured a great deal by this point (PiL), surrounding himself with top notch musicians and even a few good songs and melodies, though the avant-garde leanings and sense of rebellion is still there, a very entertaining and solid album.   NMTB on the other hand is not about music, it is a reactive fashion statement, a right wing protest movement against the establishment, an antithesis not to Prog in particular but the whole misunderstood image of the  directionless decadent music scene of 1977.   Though many have an affection for many of the bands during this period, i feel Punk Rock became an inevitable stain on our music history page - against the  complacent moguls of the music world, things have hardly changed today in some areas, though many movers and shakers within the music world play very safe these days, sticking to clone acts who have a PA department to vet their activities when dealing with the press (boy band, girl band, girl with guitar, boy with guitar, all very safe and stuff you could listen to with granny around).    Even Rap has become a sanitised neatly packaged establishment institution ,  it is also about fashion statements not music, though its decadent anti-establishment overtones are all very tongue-in-cheek, and should only influence or offend the foolish . With the lack of anything new appearing these days, music will to continue to safely go round in circles for many years to come.

I shall add to/back up what Pnoom! said.

Why is Nevermind the Bullocks not about music?
Why is it less about music than a prog rock album is, why is it less about music than a classical piece is, why is it less about music than a simple 3 chord Johnny Cash song is?
A classical musician could easily say Elvis Presley and Johnny Cash is just about image and not about music,  since it's all relatively simple stripped down songs and often both have been put in the media and shown to the world as something more about image than music.

As far as I can hear, NMTB has melody, harmony and rhythm. So tell me why it's not about music, if it has the common elements of what we regard as music and was printed to vinyl so people could LISTEN to it (key word, listen, because that's what you do with music, right?).
Sure, perhaps the BAND was about an image to an extent, but the record is about music.

"I feel Punk Rock became an inevitable stain on our music history page"
I feel Genesis and Yes left an inevitable stain on our music history page when they released pure garbage in the form of pop albums and in fact, looking around PA, I'd be inclined to think many would agree with me.

As a fan of music, as a Progressive Metal Team member and also as a fan of prog rock, I am proud to say I'm a fan of punk.
As far as I'm concerned, and as Pnoom! said, punk changed music for the better, but I guess you have to be a fan of stuff like metal, hardcore and the indie scene, like I am to truly appreciate punk's massive positive  contribution to music , otherwise you'll miss it entirely.
The whole of Tech/Extreme wouldn't exist without punk, so lemme guess that you think Tech/Extreme is a 'stain on music history'?
A lot of post rock and post metal is heavily influenced by hardcore/post hardcore, so I guess it's a 'stain on music history" too right?
Bands like The Mars Volta and The Fall Of Troy which are included in the database in our very own PA are heavily influenced by post hardcore, The Fall of Troy in fact being a prime example of progressive post hardcore.
THAT'S RIGHT, a prog punk band in essence. Whoever said punk and prog couldn't fit together was dead wrong.

Clone acts exist in every genre really, it's not a punk phenomenon.
Anyone that thinks punk never progressed musically, clearly doesn't know the genre at all.
Just like prog, like metal, like jazz, like classical, it spawned many any sub genres, some of which have produced very complex music with true virtuoso musicians.
I can tell you now, a lot of punk bands play it anything but safe. I would hardly call the post hardcore/pysch/experimental prog stylings of The Mars Volta safe and easily digestable by the mass audience.
As far as I'm concerned and can see, punk doesn't play it anymore safe or dangerous than prog rock.

Now, if I must make it clear, I'm more into post hardcore than any other punk sub genre, but I still have quite a decent knowledge of punk history from it's roots until today.

And as Pnoom! said, there is still plenty of rap that is down and dirty and doesn't go by the rules of the popular rap styles. I'm no expert on the field and I don't have the understanding of rap that Pnoom! or other PA members do, but I can tell you, if you take the 2 seconds extra that mainstream audiences don't do to look for something that is far removed from being sanitized and sugar coated, you will find something more extreme that is not compatible with mainstream listeners.

Post-punk is definitely my favorite side to punk music.

Finnforest wrote: check out Minutemen for one of the best punk bands of the old days.

I made your text bigger because it's some of the best advice I've ever seen anyone give.

Everyone check out Minutemen.  Specifically the album Double Nickels on the Dime.  That album is just mindblowing.