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threefates 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
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Points: 4215
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 Posted: May 01 2009 at 22:21 |
 sleeper wrote:
I strongly disagree with BSS being a must have manly because I had it, listened to it about a dozen times over several months and got rid of it because I really dont like it, and if the majority dont like it then it really cant be a must have, cant it? (I dont think thats true, its probably more like half and half.)
I agree with you on the Santana bit, ELP do deserve at least one album in the top 100, but those that are saying "shame on you" for not rating their albums highly enough to get into the top 10 need to grow up.
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A couple of months?? You gave it a lot of time, huh!!  I've listened to it atleast once a week for the last 30 some years... and I love it., so I guess you have some catching up to do.
I agree with the guy that said that ELP deserves 4 albums in the top 10. And I don't think I need to grow up to say that. Evidently since I was around to see ELP live in the mid-70s, means I'm evidently quite grown up already. It just seems to me that quite a lot of the reviewers here are young... and weren't around in the 70s when prog was... "really prog"... and your reviews of today's watered down prog... or whatever you're calling it these days... shouldn't be the meter for rating top prog records.
It doesn't really matter however, because most people in the prog industry and those of us olders who put together the prog festivals these days, know that there are some actual real up and coming prog bands out there, and we can ever so often get to see the prog masters from the past. I have tickets to 3 or 4 of Keith Emerson's upcoming shows.
So if you really want to experience prog... head to Nearfest, Rosfest... or even that 3 Rivers prog festival this year.
BTW... the Santana thing is just a shame!
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THIS IS ELP
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: May 01 2009 at 22:30 |
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It is all an opinion. No album "deserves" to be the top. Same as all albums "deserve" it. It is too much an opinion.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
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Points: 16715
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 00:08 |
threefates wrote:
I've listened to it atleast once a week for the last 30 some years... and I love it., so I guess you have some catching up to do.
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Seriously? While I question that ELP's music is so esoteric that it requires years of listening, I am genuinely baffled that someone could listen to any music that many times.
I think it's fair to say that if you don't like it after a dozen listens, you're probably not ever going to like it, unless you revisit it years later and your tastes have changed significantly in the interim. Why do you disagree? I would have almost any album almost completely memorized by that many listens.
threefates wrote:
It just seems to me that quite a lot of the reviewers here are young... and weren't around in the 70s when prog was... "really prog"... and your reviews of today's watered down prog... or whatever you're calling it these days... shouldn't be the meter for rating top prog records.
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What is the difference between "really prog" and "watered down prog", and why is the distinction important?
SgtPepper67 wrote:
I think there's a lot of people in the forum who aren't really that much into the classic prog bands and more into metal/tech/math/whatever it is called wich I don't like at all, and it's ok, but that would explain my disagreement with many opinions and reviews on the site.
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That is true, a lot of us have been listening to prog long enough that we've more or less moved on from classic prog--you can only listen to those albums so many times, you know.
Edited by Henry Plainview - May 02 2009 at 00:12
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 09:28 |
threefates wrote:
A couple of months?? You gave it a lot of time, huh!! I've listened to it atleast once a week for the last 30 some years... and I love it., so I guess you have some catching up to do.
Hi Threefatess, glad to see you again here.
I agree with you in part, I understand Sleeper doesn't like BSS (even when i love it), but the "I don't like it so it's not transcendental" argument, is a bit arrogant, our personal tastes are not a good reference to say if an album is a must or not
I don't like Lark's Tongues in Aspic at all (Heard it at least countless times), but to use my taste as a parameter to say is an album is trancendental or not, is absurd, the album is horrendous FOR ME, but I can't deny that the touch of a genius is there.
I hate it, but Lark's is a must have for any person who wants to have a good collection, the same goes for Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery.
BTW: Sleeper, bnever get riod of your classic albums, you may regret it some day, that's a thing I never do, I even have the copy of Invisible Touch a girlfriend gave me as a present, and I hate iot with all my guts.
I agree with the guy that said that ELP deserves 4 albums in the top 10. And I don't think I need to grow up to say that. Evidently since I was around to see ELP live in the mid-70s, means I'm evidently quite grown up already. It just seems to me that quite a lot of the reviewers here are young... and weren't around in the 70s when prog was... "really prog"... and your reviews of today's watered down prog... or whatever you're calling it these days... shouldn't be the meter for rating top prog records.
Honestly I don't believe 4 albums for the top 100, but I do believe Trilogy and BSS deserve a spot, even when I rated Pictures with 5 stars, i did it because the merit of that album is that they dared to play pictures COMPLETE in front of a group of kids who probably never heard Mussorgsky before, and have success, that's having balls.
But Trillogy and BSS IMO deserve a spot.
Cheers again 3fates
Iván
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 10:17 |
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Ah, the band people love to hate. Any of the four core albums (ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, BSS) would be worthy of inclusion in the top 100. Unfortunately, none are great albums. There are great songs on all, but there always seems to be a throwaway cut or two. These 'throwaways' generally represent ELP's attempt to show us they are just another band, capable of humor, etc. When they stuck to their strong points -- making incredibly complex, challenging music, there was no better band. I've said it before, Emerson was the Hendrix of the Hammond organ, coaxing sounds out of the instrument that were unheard of at the time. For that alone they should be recognized, but what will be will be.
Edited by jammun - May 02 2009 at 10:17
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 18:58 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Ayreon too! |
I just quoted this bit to compare ELP with Ayreon and their respective ratings. I have always wondered why BSS is sometimes given 1 or 2 stars when has:
One of the genre defining moments of prog ( Karn Evil 9)
An incredible exprimental track ( Tocatta)
A powerful opener ( Jerusalem)
An OK ballad
The " Throwaway track"
How can 4 " bad" minutes of music spare 40 of sheer brillance I just don't know!!
Comparing with Ayreon , I won't go saying that " The Human Equation" is a mediocre record just because the only feature I did not like in more than 90 minutes of music : the "operatic" vocals of some singer I don't know his name. Do you know who he is???
The album is great , not perfect but very enjoyable ( athough I like Ayreon's debut more)
Probably some people just listened to the album a few times and gave up on it , if I did that I would have given " Awake" 2 stars Opeth's " Still life" 1 star as well as SFAM , but the point is I didn't , you can see my reviews if you feel like it.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 19:10 |
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Karn Evil 9 is an amazing tune.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 19:50 |
Tarkus is brilliant. The rest is difficult to bear with ELP.
And their cd's are too full of filler... And BSS is an extremely uneven record....
No... ELP may be incredibly important but, besides Tarkus, never achieved real magnificence in my opinion. The don't hold a candle to Genesis or even Yes.
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SgtPepper67
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2007
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 530
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 20:44 |
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I enjoy all their "throwaway tracks", they may not be as impressive as the rest of the stuff but in my opinion doesn't prevent those albums of being great. How is Brain Salad Surgery an uneven album just because it has Benny the bouncer wich I think it's no more than 3 or 4 minutes of the album?
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: May 02 2009 at 20:56 |
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^BSS is an uneven record because it's MY opinion... of course I understand is perfect for others... For me, it's actually full of filler... "jerusalem" is nothing great... Toccata is acceptable version... The pother two just boring... and Karn Evil 9 is interesting but not masterpiece-status like Tarkus... again, IMO. IMO.
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
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Points: 3081
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 01:50 |
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I´ve owned ELP´s discography since I first started listening to prog rock along with Genesis, Yes, King Crimson and so forth. But ELP never did much for me. They simply seem to lack emotional impact and Lake is a mediocre vocalist IMO ( and that might be stretching it). I understand why others feel that they are excellent and they certainly had a groundbreaking sound. That don´t mean that I enjoy it much though.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 09:12 |
Even though I can't agre that lake is a mediocre vocalist (I believe he has an outstanding voice), I do agree with the lack of emotional impact.
ELP always feklt a bit coldd, too technicall for my taste, despite this fact, I still believe BSS and trilogy are top 20 albums.
Iván
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Lucent
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 18 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 09:43 |
They don't deserve a top 100 spot. Brain Salad Surgery had only one semi-decent song (Karn Evil 9), as the rest of their albums are overdone and pompous.
It's like they're the Dream Theater before Dream Theater, except Dream Theater actually released two good albums (Bless Kevin Moore)
Edited by Lucent - May 03 2009 at 09:43
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 10:24 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Even though I can't agre that lake is a mediocre vocalist (I believe he has an outstanding voice), I do agree with the lack of emotional impact.
ELP always feklt a bit coldd, too technicall for my taste, despite this fact, I still believe BSS and trilogy are top 20 albums.
Iván |
I think "Pirates" is way too emotional. But where I find emotion , others may find cheese.
By the way , Ivan I have read you review of Factor Burzaco and I really want to hear the record. The point is , although this is an Argentinean band , the album is almost impossible to find. Could you tell me where you got it??
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 11:16 |
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I am a big fan of the song Black Moon.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 15:53 |
threefates wrote:
sleeper wrote:
I strongly disagree with BSS being a must have manly because I had it, listened to it about a dozen times over several months and got rid of it because I really dont like it, and if the majority dont like it then it really cant be a must have, cant it? (I dont think thats true, its probably more like half and half.)
I agree with you on the Santana bit, ELP do deserve at least one album in the top 100, but those that are saying "shame on you" for not rating their albums highly enough to get into the top 10 need to grow up.
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A couple of months?? You gave it a lot of time, huh!! I've listened to it atleast once a week for the last 30 some years... and I love it., so I guess you have some catching up to do.
I agree with the guy that said that ELP deserves 4 albums in the top 10. And I don't think I need to grow up to say that. Evidently since I was around to see ELP live in the mid-70s, means I'm evidently quite grown up already. It just seems to me that quite a lot of the reviewers here are young... and weren't around in the 70s when prog was... "really prog"... and your reviews of today's watered down prog... or whatever you're calling it these days... shouldn't be the meter for rating top prog records.
It doesn't really matter however, because most people in the prog industry and those of us olders who put together the prog festivals these days, know that there are some actual real up and coming prog bands out there, and we can ever so often get to see the prog masters from the past. I have tickets to 3 or 4 of Keith Emerson's upcoming shows.
So if you really want to experience prog... head to Nearfest, Rosfest... or even that 3 Rivers prog festival this year.
BTW... the Santana thing is just a shame! |
I can form a decent jusgement of an album after a few listens, though of course discovering the detail work where the genious of many bands comes through takes many more listens. If its going to take 30 years of listening to an album once a week to come to love it then I dont think its going to be worth the effort to be honest, its sounds too much like hard work rather than listening enjoyment. Does being born in the mid-eighties mean I'm not capable of deciding whats good or not for myself? If thats the case then I think we've just found proof that wisdom most certainly doesnt come with age. If you think that ELP deserve 4 albums in the all time top 10 of prog then fine, thats your choice and your free to make it, but if you think the rest of us need to follow suit then yes, you really do need to grow up. There are some rally talented bands out there, your right, and they cover a massive span of styles and genres to the point that I think the 2000's have been the best decade for prog since the 70's. I'd kill to get a chance to go to NEARfest, Rosfest or 3Rivers Prog, but being a student on the other side of the atlantic makes that impossible, instead I'll have to make do with Summers End where Huw and Steve are doing an amazing job of putting on the UK's only prog rock festivel, but the chances of them securing the likes of Le Orme, Banco, PFM, Magma, Echolyn and the majority of the bands that turn up in the states is non existent.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 16:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Hi Threefatess, glad to see you again here.
I agree with you in part, I understand Sleeper doesn't like BSS (even when i love it), but the "I don't like it so it's not transcendental" argument, is a bit arrogant, our personal tastes are not a good reference to say if an album is a must or not
Personal tastes are the only refference that any of us really have to decide what is a must have album, though historical importance is a big decider on what should be at least heard IMO.
I don't like Lark's Tongues in Aspic at all (Heard it at least countless times), but to use my taste as a parameter to say is an album is trancendental or not, is absurd, the album is horrendous FOR ME, but I can't deny that the touch of a genius is there.
I hate it, but Lark's is a must have for any person who wants to have a good collection, the same goes for Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery.
This one definitely comes down to personal preferance, as things stand the total lack of ELP on my shelves certainly dosent hurt it.
BTW: Sleeper, bnever get riod of your classic albums, you may regret it some day, that's a thing I never do, I even have the copy of Invisible Touch a girlfriend gave me as a present, and I hate iot with all my guts.
I still have it to some degree, stored as an MP3 on my external hard drive so that if I ever feel the need to listen to it again, maybe to see if my opinions on it have changed, I can and then buy the album on CD.
I used to have Peter Gabriels Secret World Live album on my old computer (borrowed from a friend) but the hard drive crashed, loosing that album was a big regret for me so I keep all music I get backed up on a hard drive, whether I like it or not, just in case....
Honestly I don't believe 4 albums for the top 100, but I do believe Trilogy and BSS deserve a spot, even when I rated Pictures with 5 stars, i did it because the merit of that album is that they dared to play pictures COMPLETE in front of a group of kids who probably never heard Mussorgsky before, and have success, that's having balls.
But Trillogy and BSS IMO deserve a spot.
Cheers again 3fates
Iván
Agree with them deserving a spot in the top 100, there too important not to.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 5964
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 16:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[ they dared to play pictures COMPLETE in front of a group of kids who probably never heard Mussorgsky before |
Sorry to be pedantic but this statement isn't true at all. ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" bypasses several movements of Mussorgsky's original suite (including several of my favourites - such as Bydlo, Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks, Market of Limoges, Catacombs etc. etc.) That's hardly a complete rendition, is it?
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inrainbows
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 20 2008
Location: on a rainbow
Status: Offline
Points: 489
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 17:43 |
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BSS surely deserves a place in top 100 albums, but the voting is free and everyone put his favs which means that they just consider another 100 albums better than BSS. So what's the point if BSS does't reach top 100?
It still deserves it
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SgtPepper67
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2007
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 530
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Posted: May 03 2009 at 18:01 |
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I disagree about Lake being a mediocre singer, he has an amazing voice, plus I think he was the one who add the emotional impact to their music, although like crimson 87 said, many people find his contribution to the band too cheesy.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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ELP missing from PA Top 100 Choices
