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threefates 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
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Points: 4215
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 Posted: May 06 2009 at 08:24 |
 sleeper wrote:
Oh, the "you dont like it so you dont understand it" rubbish. I understand it perfectly, still doesnt mean I like it though. |
I didn't say you had to like it, just saying that because you don't, doesn't mean you're in the majority. Here on this site, maybe, but not in most of the prog world. Matter of fact, I was thinking the opposite. If trying to understand the music is such hard work, maybe you shouldn't try to understand it.. and just appreciate it for what its worth.
sleeper wrote:
I dont think there's ever been a period in my life where the radio has ever figured in my musical education. Except for a period of about a year and half where I listeneed to a fair bit of indie (along with Genesis and Floyd) Prog has always been the backbone of my listening experience. Arrogant today arent we? |
I suppose then that in your grammer school days, you already had quite a record (excuse me... cd) collection and wasn't listening to what your parents were playing, or what was on the tv... or what the kids at school were listening to on the radio.
sleeper wrote:
I'd say it was your idea of prog that was flawed and outmoded, but since you've remained rather coy on why the modern bands are "watered down prog" I cant really start to pick holes in it yet. Oh, and your completely and utterly wrong about the lack of good prog bands around today.
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I don't think outmoded is a word that can be used with prog... but at your age, I guess thats how you see it. I think if you read around this thread, I've pretty much defined why I think today's "prog" referred to bands.. are watered down. But I'll give you a little more on this. Ask Max here... when this site began, how many prog genre classifications there was. And then look at how many there are now. You now have prog mixed with jazz fusion, or metal, or hiphop, or math??... just about everything. The very idea of "mixed with"... equals watered-down.
sleeper wrote:
I've seen Frost*, there an OK band but nothing special, just following the old conventions of Yes and co. I probably would love Lazuli, the descriptions I've read make me quite interested but I've yet to find one of their albums for a reasonable price.
Moon Safari are another band I need to check out, but their albums are very difficult to find. |
Actually Frost sound nothing like Yes... and Moon Safari does. Ask all the Yesfans over on yesfans.com.
sleeper wrote:
Sounds like a good line up. Beardfish bored me silly on CD, though are a fair bit better on stage. The Zappa comment must be because they try to put a fair buit of humour into their music, and cringeworthy attempts they are IMO.
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I wasn't so fond of Beardfish on cd either... but a few songs I have liked and downloaded. I am looking forward to seeing them.
I have to say that there was a lot more women at Rosfest this year than in previous years, which was really nice, but I actually had to wait in line at the bathroom... 
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THIS IS ELP
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 08:26 |
threefates wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Having played Pictures at an Exhibition in a concert band an exhausting number of times, ELP's version is pretty pale.
It was ambitious though. No one ever said ELP weren't ambitious. |
Being in a concert band in my early years... I doubt this is true. And since I'm pretty sure you didn't have a singer.. much less one with Greg's voice... I'm pretty sure thats not true. I'm also sure that your version didn't include "The Sage"... which is just so lovely... Of course, this is just MY opinion.  |
You doubt what is true? I played in two separate bands (I was a F horn player) where the director decided we'd tackle Pictures and guess what it took alot of work to get it to speed. Which we did. And so it was a main performance piece once we'd put that work in. All I'm saying is that I've sat through many hours of working up that piece in its many parts, so I'm quite familiar with it outside of this context.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
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Points: 24815
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 08:54 |
ELP belongs to the core of 70's prog indeed, together with Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd.
If I was to determine which albums should be in the top 100, Brain Salad Surgery and their debut album should be part of it. Tarkus is another story: side 2 is a statement of mediocrity.
However, more than 35 years have passed since then in which progheads have been born and grew up. Some of them preferred fresh meat above gnawing on the bones of old dinosaurs and we can't blame them for this. Moreover, new genres and subgenres developed and throughout history living grave robbers have always prevailed over dead kings...  |
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 08:58 |
Negoba wrote:
threefates wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Having played Pictures at an Exhibition in a concert band an exhausting number of times, ELP's version is pretty pale.
It was ambitious though. No one ever said ELP weren't ambitious. |
Being in a concert band in my early years... I doubt this is true. And since I'm pretty sure you didn't have a singer.. much less one with Greg's voice... I'm pretty sure thats not true. I'm also sure that your version didn't include "The Sage"... which is just so lovely... Of course, this is just MY opinion. |
You doubt what is true? I played in two separate bands (I was a F horn player) where the director decided we'd tackle Pictures and guess what it took alot of work to get it to speed. Which we did. And so it was a main performance piece once we'd put that work in. All I'm saying is that I've sat through many hours of working up that piece in its many parts, so I'm quite familiar with it outside of this context. |
When I gave my original review of ELP's Pictures at an Exhibition a couple of years back, I gave it a rating of one star. In retrospect, I realized that I was a little harsh. I have since changed the rating to 2 stars, but one of my complaints with the record is that although it is indeed an ambitious cover, it misses the mark with the ommitted movements, unnecessary added movements ("The Curse of Baba Yaga"), and the completely unnecessary added vocals. BTW, my own experience with Pictures includes a performance of the suite, as orchestrated by Ravel, as timpanist for the Texas All-State Symphony Orchestra back in 1986. We had to learn Pictures, Overture to West Side Story, and Hary Janos all in 2 days.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 09:05 |
jimidom wrote:
When I gave my original review of ELP's Pictures at an Exhibition a couple of years back, I gave it a rating of one star. In retrospect, I realized that I was a little harsh. I have since changed the rating to 2 stars, but one of my complaints with the record is that although it is indeed an ambitious cover, it misses the mark with the ommitted movements, unnecessary added movements ("The Curse of Baba Yaga"), and the completely unnecessary added vocals. BTW, my own experience with Pictures includes a performance of the suite, as orchestrated by Ravel, as timpanist for the Texas All-State Symphony Orchestra back in 1986. We had to learn Pictures, Overture to West Side Story, and Hary Janos all in 2 days. |
Then we're in pretty much complete agreement. My experience was high school (interestingly as a 1st chair as a freshman in a small town band and then as a 3rd when I moved to a much bigger school as a senior) and there's just so much more to the work...it is ambitious. Watching the video of ELP, they are having a great time and the audience seems to dig it, so be it. After all...it's just entertainment folks.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 11:33 |
threefates wrote:
sleeper wrote:
I'd say it was your idea of prog that was flawed and outmoded, but since you've remained rather coy on why the modern bands are "watered down prog" I cant really start to pick holes in it yet. Oh, and your completely and utterly wrong about the lack of good prog bands around today.
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I don't think outmoded is a word that can be used with prog... but at your age, I guess thats how you see it. I think if you read around this thread, I've pretty much defined why I think today's "prog" referred to bands.. are watered down. But I'll give you a little more on this. Ask Max here... when this site began, how many prog genre classifications there was. And then look at how many there are now. You now have prog mixed with jazz fusion, or metal, or hiphop, or math??... just about everything. The very idea of "mixed with"... equals watered-down. |
Whoah, you're completely missing the point of being progressive. That's exactly the definition of progressive rock: musicians using their talent, writing skills and instrumental proficiency to break musical borders, to include creativity from foreign areas of music, to bring something new. That's what classic prog also did: it "watered down" classic rock with all sorts of foreign imports like new song formats inspired from classical music, different compositional styles from classical, jazz and avantgarde music, new musical textures from classical or traditional (mainly acoustic) music, new styles for playing the instruments (a lot from jazz), etc. In the end the result only had to be good music, just like today. On the other hand, if a musician today tries to avoid "watering down" what he knows from the classical prog era, that has a name: playing it safe. There are indeed some acts which bring new fresh ideas without exiting the boundaries of 70s style, but they're really not many, as there isn't much left to say new and fresh on that alley.
Edited by Swan Song - May 06 2009 at 17:02
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 11:38 |
Swan Song wrote:
threefates wrote:
sleeper wrote:
I'd say it was your idea of prog that was flawed and outmoded, but since you've remained rather coy on why the modern bands are "watered down prog" I cant really start to pick holes in it yet. Oh, and your completely and utterly wrong about the lack of good prog bands around today.
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I don't think outmoded is a word that can be used with prog... but at your age, I guess thats how you see it. I think if you read around this thread, I've pretty much defined why I think today's "prog" referred to bands.. are watered down. But I'll give you a little more on this. Ask Max here... when this site began, how many prog genre classifications there was. And then look at how many there are now. You now have prog mixed with jazz fusion, or metal, or hiphop, or math??... just about everything. The very idea of "mixed with"... equals watered-down. |
Whoah, you're completely missing the point of being progressive. That's exactly the definition of progressive rock: musicians using their talent, writing skills and instrumental proficiency to break musical borders, to include creativity from foreign areas of music, to bring something new. That's what classic prog also did: it "watered down" classic rock with all sorts of style like new song formats inspired from classical music, different compositional styles from classical, jazz and avantgarde music, new musical textures from classical or traditional (mainly acoustic) music, new styles for playing the instruments (a lot from jazz), etc. In the end the result only had to be good music, just like today.
On the other hand, if a musician today tries to avoid "watering down" what he knows from the classical prog era, that has a name: playing it safe. There are indeed some acts which bring new fresh ideas without exiting the boundaries of 70s style, but they're really not many, as there isn't much left to say new and fresh.
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And that is not to be confused with progressing as a band. Many bands have progressed, in their own fashion,without being progressive.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 11:45 |
^ you are correct sir 
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 13:14 |
threefates wrote:
I didn't say you had to like it, just saying that because you don't, doesn't mean you're in the majority. Here on this site, maybe, but not in most of the prog world. Matter of fact, I was thinking the opposite. If trying to understand the music is such hard work, maybe you shouldn't try to understand it.. and just appreciate it for what its worth.
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I'm finding that I'm probably in the minority, on this site as well as outside when it comes to BSS and ELP in general. Your post quite clearly implied that because I dont like it I dont understand it which I took exception to because I do understand it and "appreciate it for what its worth", we just happen to have very different ideas of what its worth.
I suppose then that in your grammer school days, you already had quite a record (excuse me... cd) collection and wasn't listening to what your parents were playing, or what was on the tv... or what the kids at school were listening to on the radio.
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Grammer School! Not a chance, not that smart. Actually before I was 16/17 I took bugger all notice of music, it was just "that noise in the background". I dont recall my parents playing anything when I was growing up, which is quite strange actually considering my dad is/was a jazz musician.
I don't think outmoded is a word that can be used with prog... but at your age, I guess thats how you see it. I think if you read around this thread, I've pretty much defined why I think today's "prog" referred to bands.. are watered down. But I'll give you a little more on this. Ask Max here... when this site began, how many prog genre classifications there was. And then look at how many there are now. You now have prog mixed with jazz fusion, or metal, or hiphop, or math??... just about everything. The very idea of "mixed with"... equals watered-down.
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This isnt chemistry its art, to not add new influences, to make changes after something's been explored is to stagnate and become predictable and in the end dull. Besides, the original bands added influences from just about everything going at the time anyway. Actually, Swan Song probably answered this better than I did.
Actually Frost sound nothing like Yes... and Moon Safari does. Ask all the Yesfans over on yesfans.com.
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I didnt say that they sounded like Yes, they just used the same conventions as them. Admitedly thats not strictly true, there's plenty of Floyd in their and some of the Neo bands like Pendragon and IQ.
Edited by sleeper - May 06 2009 at 13:15
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006
Location: Espoo, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 6457
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 14:18 |
Swan Song wrote:
Whoah, you're completely missing the point.......
......as there isn't much left to say new and fresh.
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Thanks for writing down my thoughts much better than I could have done it. 
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 18:22 |
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6 pages later, I still think they are one of the most underrated bands in PA.
This thread is rather useless, except to create a flame war, like it probably did.
Besides, the OP needs to take a better look at the PA top 100: ELP's debut is there somewhere, just go look.
Edited by CCVP - May 06 2009 at 18:24
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threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 07:26 |
Negoba wrote:
threefates wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Having played Pictures at an Exhibition in a concert band an exhausting number of times, ELP's version is pretty pale.
It was ambitious though. No one ever said ELP weren't ambitious. |
Being in a concert band in my early years... I doubt this is true. And since I'm pretty sure you didn't have a singer.. much less one with Greg's voice... I'm pretty sure thats not true. I'm also sure that your version didn't include "The Sage"... which is just so lovely... Of course, this is just MY opinion. |
You doubt what is true? I played in two separate bands (I was a F horn player) where the director decided we'd tackle Pictures and guess what it took alot of work to get it to speed. Which we did. And so it was a main performance piece once we'd put that work in. All I'm saying is that I've sat through many hours of working up that piece in its many parts, so I'm quite familiar with it outside of this context. |
I don't doubt that you probably know a lot about Mussorsky's original for orchestration... but that can't really be compared to ELP's rock version. Keith did not set out to produce a like representation, but more of a conversion of sorts to a rock piece. I don't think he would need to reconstruct all the orchestral voices for that purpose. The same with Toccata.. and Fanfare... neither are really comparable to the originals. Which is why I doubt ELP's version pales in comparison... because there can be no comparison really.
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THIS IS ELP
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threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 07:27 |
someone_else wrote:
Moreover, new genres and subgenres developed and throughout history living grave robbers have always prevailed over dead kings... |
Exactly!
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THIS IS ELP
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threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 07:52 |
Swan Song wrote:
threefates wrote:
I don't think outmoded is a word that can be used with prog... but at your age, I guess thats how you see it. I think if you read around this thread, I've pretty much defined why I think today's "prog" referred to bands.. are watered down. But I'll give you a little more on this. Ask Max here... when this site began, how many prog genre classifications there was. And then look at how many there are now. You now have prog mixed with jazz fusion, or metal, or hiphop, or math??... just about everything. The very idea of "mixed with"... equals watered-down. |
Whoah, you're completely missing the point of being progressive. That's exactly the definition of progressive rock: musicians using their talent, writing skills and instrumental proficiency to break musical borders, to include creativity from foreign areas of music, to bring something new. That's what classic prog also did: it "watered down" classic rock with all sorts of foreign imports like new song formats inspired from classical music, different compositional styles from classical, jazz and avantgarde music, new musical textures from classical or traditional (mainly acoustic) music, new styles for playing the instruments (a lot from jazz), etc. In the end the result only had to be good music, just like today. |
No I'm not. You're taking the word progressive literally... and when you do that... there's not a band out there that in some way can not fall into that category. How can classic prog water down classic rock when at that time... it wasn't even classic... just rock. What made progressive... progressive.. at that time, was the influence in rock of other genre's other that rhythm and blues. It was more of a European feel, and less American. And as you say, it was highly influenced by new musical textures from classical or traditional (mainly acoustic) music, however at that time it was still very distinguishable from rock or hard rock, which why at first it was termed classical rock... then art rock... progressive. The reason I say that many of the bands today that keep being labeled "prog" bands are watered down. Because literally I can't see much difference between them and regular rock bands. Radiohead for example... whats really progressive about them? Coheed & Cambria? Porcupine Tree (now.. not the more ambient early stuff)?
Swan Song wrote:
On the other hand, if a musician today tries to avoid "watering down" what he knows from the classical prog era, that has a name: playing it safe. There are indeed some acts which bring new fresh ideas without exiting the boundaries of 70s style, but they're really not many, as there isn't much left to say new and fresh on that alley.
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I think thats what I said.. they're really is not many of them. And its not playing it safe... its just progressive. There is definitely lots more to say, just not too many have need to say it.
Instead of continuing to create new sub-genre... or trying to label every different band out there.. prog, why not just give them their own genre. I know.. its impossible. I listened to a very jazz band the other day, and yet they labeled themselves as Indie... go figure.
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THIS IS ELP
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ELP missing from PA Top 100 Choices
