Music Appreciation - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210

Posted: March 01 2010 at 05:11

Another to add is that taste's change.
I've largely gone off that more melodic, more soloing based stuff like Symphony X, Dream Theater etc and more into the groove metal oriented realm of metal now which is much riff based and far less focused on soloing virtuosity.
I also highly enjoy post metal, which has many musical characteristics that are completely at odds with Dream Theater's approach. I just find it easier to listen to chilled out post metal than Dream Theater's hectic in your face constantly changing riffs and super lengthy soloing.
I still really dig Awake, but a lot of Dream Theater is really too much for me to take in these days.
Honestly if I want high tech soloing I'll put on something like Cacophony instead (I don't listen to it often, but every now and then)
Yes, cheesy as f**k lyrics, but I get a humorous kick out of it, and Jason Becker and Marty Friedman are easily more interesting melodically than John Petrucci anyway.
I also don't have to listen to annoying keyboard solos either.
The fact that Jason Becker was also more technically advanced by the age of 16 than Petrucci was even now after all these years was no easy feat. Petrucci's sweep picking technique is absolute dog sh*t compared to that of Jason Becker as a 16 year old's technique..

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869

Posted: March 01 2010 at 04:51

DavetheSlave wrote:

I am of the opinion that there is a danger that DT bashing has become a fashionable here in PA which is sad. There is a UTube vid that may say it all - it is a very funny one where someone "voice overs" a John Petrucci interview - those who have seen it will know what I mean.

Well, you see, a lot of people got into prog rock back in the day when it was less metal-oriented and when they check out DT because they are supposed to be one of the best prog bands of modern times, they dislike it because it's so metallic. I am not saying that's right, but it happens, human tendency, just accept it, it's not that hard to. Dead

It is by the way perfectly possible to like metal and still not like DT too much...I personally get off after Awake, which is my opinion and I am bloody well entitled to it. Anyway, we'll come back to this in a bit. Meantime...you find stuff posted on youtube upsetting? Dear me!

DavetheSlave wrote:

The musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years. Anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums.

I have not personally seen people denying that DT's musicians lack technical ability, could you please show me some examples of this. Most people say they find Petrucci soulless and Rudess annoying. I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. Tongue

I would also ask how is Petrucci so much more talented than Guthrie Govan and how does Rudess pwn - to use DT fanboy lingo Wink

- Barbara Dennerlein, since you seem to suggest there are no musicians as technically skilled as DT's right now.

DavetheSlave wrote:

The music of the band may not appeal to everyone (what a boring world if we all loved the the things) but to deny that it is good music is almost to deny music. I do not enjoy hardcore jazz, for example, but I would never deny that it is good music.

I do not enjoy Mariah Carey's songs, but I would never deny it is good music...is that your point? Surely a reviewer is entitled to make HIS personal assessment about the quality of music. It's up to you to agree or not. And my point in choosing Carey is she is a very talented singer and could flatten LaBrie technically. Yeah, I am dead serious.

DavetheSlave wrote:

Petrucci bashing, Portnoy bashing, Myung bashing - what's that all about? La Brie bashing? - c'mon guys.

La Brie has a good voice in fact.

Ok now we get to more interesting things. First of all, vocals is THE most subjective aspect of music appreciation and it can definitely happen that people would have divergent perceptions about it. Again, you are just going to have to accept for that some reason, LaBrie turns off a lot of people. Yes, fact is, LaBrie has a good voice. But he also manages to sound rather inappropriate and odd in several musical contexts. I thought it was DT's music that didn't suit his voice but even on covers, be it Stargazer or Cowboys from Hell. Secondly, his diction in head voice is terrible and becomes a little difficult to bear with. I am sympathetic to that his food poisoning accident took a lot out of him but even on Images & Words and Awake, it is an acquired taste for me. I wouldn't deny he is talented, but there are many aspects of his singing that are potentially off-putting...you'll just have to accept that most people will not patiently draw these fine lines of distinction and simply say they don't like it...nothing wrong with that AT ALL.

DavetheSlave wrote:

What we should be doing is comparing the new DT releases to the other output out there (in which case it would win most races easily). We insist on slating their albums because we compare them to their previous releases i.e Images and Words - how can they move on if we refuse to?

90125 is not at all bad for the scene of 1981, and I personally like the album. But it is judged against Close to the Edge and called a mediocre release by Yes's standards. And you don't see me or other Yes fans throwing a fit over that. CTTE is their pinnacle - TFTO is also often suggested as such - that's all, every band has a peak phase. I think DT's was during their Moore-phase. Maybe others have different views but those of us who like the Moore-phase most have the right to say so.

DavetheSlave wrote:

If a lot of us here at PA had our way every member of DT would be fired - would we be happy if La Brie were replaced, would we be happy if Portnoy toned down his drum kit and ceased singing backing altogether? Should we get Petrucci to tone down his solos? Maybe DT should get rid of keyboards altogether?

Cmon guys.

Eh????

DavetheSlave wrote:

I read earlier here that some find no emotion to or in DT's music - I can only say to that that maybe cotton wool was applied to the ears prior to listening. I've read someone stating that the lyrics are bland and silly - huh? Miles ahead of Obladi Oblada I would say - in fact miles ahead of anything the Beatles ever penned. If I were Russian battling with English - yeah then I guess that the lyrics would be lacking in meaning.

DT are one of the honest bands out there trying to please their fan base - judging by the size of that fan base they aren't doing a bad job of it.

Er, what people are probably trying to say is it is not as emotionally resonant as say Starless or Epitaph, which I'd agree with. Maybe you disagree...er, so? Your point being? As for lyrics, I don't judge music by the lyrics but I'd still like to say I find the lyrics of Norwegian wood tastier than DT's lyrics. Wink

Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210

Posted: March 01 2010 at 03:43

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492

Posted: March 01 2010 at 02:23

I am of the opinion that there is a danger that DT bashing has become a fashionable here in PA which is sad. There is a UTube vid that may say it all - it is a very funny one where someone "voice overs" a John Petrucci interview - those who have seen it will know what I mean.

The musicians within the DT fold are easily amongst the best in the world technically right now and they have been for many years. Anyone who argues that point can't have much experience with a guitar, a keyboard or a set of drums. The music of the band may not appeal to everyone (what a boring world if we all loved the the things) but to deny that it is good music is almost to deny music. I do not enjoy hardcore jazz, for example, but I would never deny that it is good music.

Petrucci bashing, Portnoy bashing, Myung bashing - what's that all about? La Brie bashing? - c'mon guys.

La Brie has a good voice in fact.

I've heard that DT has become too "samey" in their output - huh? What about all the fanboys who cried when Octavarium was released that DT was changing too much? The release prior to BC&SL was criticised by many for being too Metal driven. Too samey? Now that's a new one to me.

What we should be doing is comparing the new DT releases to the other output out there (in which case it would win most races easily). We insist on slating their albums because we compare them to their previous releases i.e Images and Words - how can they move on if we refuse to?

If a lot of us here at PA had our way every member of DT would be fired - would we be happy if La Brie were replaced, would we be happy if Portnoy toned down his drum kit and ceased singing backing altogether? Should we get Petrucci to tone down his solos? Maybe DT should get rid of keyboards altogether?

Cmon guys.

I read earlier here that some find no emotion to or in DT's music - I can only say to that that maybe cotton wool was applied to the ears prior to listening. I've read someone stating that the lyrics are bland and silly - huh? Miles ahead of Obladi Oblada I would say - in fact miles ahead of anything the Beatles ever penned. If I were Russian battling with English - yeah then I guess that the lyrics would be lacking in meaning.

DT are one of the honest bands out there trying to please their fan base - judging by the size of that fan base they aren't doing a bad job of it.

seventhsojourn View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006

Posted: February 28 2010 at 18:10

Epignosis wrote:

seventhsojourn wrote:

On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?

Good question.

Prog reviewers and collaborators voluntarily invest their time and energy into this site, either by writing quality reviews, working on a genre team, or serving in some other capacity (site monitors, etc). Such members have been rewarded, as it were, with weightier reviews.

Also, such weighting helps to offset the work of crafty ratings-manipulators who churn out one and five star ratings.

You can read more about review weighting here.

Robert, Thanks for providing the link to that thread. Please forget I asked!

rushfan4

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66843

Posted: February 28 2010 at 10:04

TGM: Orb wrote:

rushfan4 wrote:

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is. I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics. For the most part, they are quite good. I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here. It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song. For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009. For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song. Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father. Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out.

This being said, I must agree with Pablo's assessment regarding the keyboards not really being a factor on this album, and in regards to Portnoy's drumming, he does often revert back to the same bag of tricks, but damn if it isn't mostly a good bag.

Minor lyrics moan: my complaint isn't the sentiment but rather the style... Dream Theater's members have, since the departure of Kevin Moore had no real grasp of how words work (not that beforehand they were Dylanesque... Awake's rather better lyrically than the rest of their albums, I think). Awkwardly incorporated grandiose phrases, little stylistic individuality, no real application of metre or sound effects and very little precision or direction... and so forth.

I'm not certain if I entirely agree with that assessment, but do not these things make for progressive sounding lyrics. i.e. lyrics that don't follow the standard ABACAB format? Just curious, as I am talking outside of my element here.

Edited by rushfan4 - February 28 2010 at 10:05

TGM: Orb

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052

Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:58

rushfan4

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66843

Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:37

Portnoy is credited with the lyrics on Shattered Fortress. I can't say for sure that he wrote them but... I would never have guess that Portnoy was Jewish. I've always assumed that his close association with Neal Morse was as a result of them having similar religious views.

And in regards to Micky, that is why I separated him out from the cold-hearted b*****ds.

Actually, I believe that he has said before that there is no love lost between him and his father, so I would suspect that a song of such sentiment would not really appeal to him.

Edited by rushfan4 - February 28 2010 at 09:39

Raff

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439

Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:18

rushfan4 wrote:

After reading Pablo's review I had to give Black Clouds and Silver Linings another spin, and I am sorry to say that I still disagree 100% with his 1 star rating, but it is what it is. I honestly don't understand why this album has been bashed for its lyrics. For the most part, they are quite good. I mentioned this once before, but I still see The Best of Times as being the best song on here. It is an extremely sentimental song, in which you would either have to be a cold-hearted b*****d or Micky in order to dislike this song. For those who don't know, Mike Portnoy wrote this song as a tribute to his father who passed away in 2009. For anyone who says that this band doesn't play with any emotion, then you have really not heard or understood this song. Absolutely beautiful memory of a man of his father. Anyhow, for those of you who don't pay attention to lyrics you are certainly missing out.

One last thought. How much of an influence has Neal Morse had over Mike Portnoy? When did DT become a Christian metal band? I didn't realize until this listen how overtly Christian the lyrics to Shattered Fortress were. I know that these are parts 10 through 12 of a series of songs. I still need to sit down and listen to that series in order to get a better feel for that, but the ending has kind of intrigued me to do that.

As far as the Christian part is concerned, I recently read that three out of five DT members are practising Christians (LaBrie, Myung and Petrucci), while Portnoy and Rudess are Jewish. So, I would be surprised Portnoy was influenced by Morse, unless he's on the verge of becoming a born-again Christian as well, or the lyrics were penned by someone else.

For your information, Micky is a very soft-hearted person, and loves sentimental songs Wink

- though very probably not those written by DT LOL

rushfan4

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66843

Posted: February 28 2010 at 09:09

Epignosis

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32589

Posted: February 28 2010 at 07:40

seventhsojourn wrote:

On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

seventhsojourn View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006

Posted: February 28 2010 at 06:43

Epignosis wrote:

DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.

The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one. It cannot be proven or verified. You cannot be objective about your opinion. This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review." That doesn't make any sense. Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like? Here- I'll write one real quick:

Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater. It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records. I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries. John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album. He plays more than one note. The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies. The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade. There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes. Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.

That is an objective review. Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever. Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron. The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.

If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful).

There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star. But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details.

If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly.

On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?

jampa17

Prog Reviewer

Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802

Posted: February 26 2010 at 14:18

The Quiet One wrote:

jampa17 wrote:

DavetheSlave wrote:

Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.

DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.

Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing.

just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...

For instance, I gave 1 star to Undertow of Tool because the production is awful, the sound is horrible, the voice is unmelodic and don't have any direction and the final result is an alternative rock album with some noises here and there and a poor production... but be the EAnima recieve 3 or 4 stars, I don't remember... even if I don't like Tool... I respect their later work because is better...

Well, I gave 1 star to Black Clouds & Silven Linings because I didn't find any highlight, there's nothing noteworthy in my opinion.

I generally give 2 stars to an album that I enjoy but I know it's not really good overall.

I'm not sure what's your problem with the 1 star, it seems that it's like a sin for you. It's just a bloody review.

Com'n Pablo... just leave it that way... we understand now why so let's close this theme because we are repeating each other once again... and I really don't want to fight with you... really... I do respect you and your opinion in general about prog... let be the peace a guide for us... Ok...??

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

DJPuffyLemon View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 18 2008
Location: L
Status: Offline
Points: 520

Posted: February 26 2010 at 13:34

Just one small thing I want to point out, Metallica wasn't metal's answer to Punk as much as bands like Exodus and Testament were. Those two bands were more thrash metal (which is pretty much punk meets metal) than Metallica was if only because Metallica was always more Progressive Rock styled than the normal thrash band, even with albums like Ride the Lightning and Kill em All (the latter being the only one I could call true thrash).

oh also, if there is ANY Marillion in DT, it is in the guitar soloing, but that's really it.

The Quiet One View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745

Posted: February 26 2010 at 11:14

jampa17 wrote:

just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...

Well, I gave 1 star to Black Clouds & Silven Linings because I didn't find any highlight, there's nothing noteworthy in my opinion.

I generally give 2 stars to an album that I enjoy but I know it's not really good overall.

I'm not sure what's your problem with the 1 star, it seems that it's like a sin for you. It's just a bloody review.

Edited by The Quiet One - February 26 2010 at 11:15

jampa17

Prog Reviewer

Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802

Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:29

Hey Dave... I send a comment to Pablo about this famous review... and tell him it was too drastic, that the album has at least two good songs (for Pablo's standards) and that I do believe saying that the album was poor was too much. I know Pablo knows well the discography of DT and he even loves the Falling into Infinity... so, I won't critizise his rating, just point at the things I'm not agree with but don't try to make him change his mind... he is one of those who likes the non metal part of DT... and that's OK with me... just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...

Now Metallica... is undeniable that their influence is very evident, more in their latest realeses. Train of Thought have Metallica sound everywhere... so... don't make too much trouble about it... start for And Justice for All... that's the album you should have to hear about Metallica...

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

Catcher10

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18060

Posted: February 26 2010 at 09:47

Padraic wrote:

Catcher10 wrote:

Beethoven has been dead for like 4,000 years

How long are the years in your world? Tongue

Everything is longer in the kingdom of Prog!

chopper

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20071

Posted: February 26 2010 at 07:45

DavetheSlave wrote:

I am a Dream Theater fanboy but then I am a fanboy of early Yes, early Genesis, Rush, Camel, Caravan, Riverside etc. Truth be told I am a fanboy of good music. I expect some very volatile answers to my post so don't be embarrassed to respond : )

The reason for my post here is that I just read a review for Dream Theater's Dark clouds and Silver Linings album and, to be honest, half an hour later I am still seething.

Someone who does not recognise good music for what it is should refrain from writing album reviews. No one can blame anyone for not liking a band or an album as that is a personal taste issue but to bash something that clearly has value, regardless of personal preferance, shows an inability to seperate the personal from the facts.

Had DCaSL been released as a debut album by any new Prog act it would have been very well received. It was released by Dream Theater and that is where the review and rating problems start. DT will probably never release another Images and Words purely because they have moved on. Anyone who feels that their latest offering is worth 1 or 2 stars should reconsider their own knowledge of prog music and should refrain from writing reviews - in the same way that anyone who gives 2112, Foxtrot or Brain Salad Surgery 1 or 2 star reviews should keep their reviews to themselves because they show that they don't really know what they are talking about. DCaSL is not a 5 star album - to many it may only warrant 3 - but please! A 1 star review from someone we recognise here as a prog reviewer? I am disappointed to say the least.

I fail to see any difference between this DT review and your 1 star review of Lateralus (an album which has a higher rating than the DT one).

People in glass houses...

tamijo

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287

Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:48

The Album is absolutely not a milestone in prog. or music. On the other hand its a good album.

All together it has recived an avrage rating of 68/100 in mainstream music magasines:

Check here :

http://apps.metacritic.com/search/process?sb=0&tfs=all&ts=Black+clouds+and+silver&ty=2&x=38&y=7

At PA

1 "Expert" gives 5 stars (rounded up ?)

1 "Expert" gives it 1 star (rounded down ?)

All in all it ends at 3.58, seems high but fair to me takes in to consideration that DT is extreemly popular at PA

Edited by tamijo - February 26 2010 at 05:49

Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

DavetheSlave View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492

Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:47

Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.