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Joined: February 09 2010
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Posted: November 05 2012 at 17:32
cstack3 wrote:
I always thought they were hampered by the lack of an outstanding lead guitarist in their lineup....they never had a guitarist who played at the level of Hackett, Howe or Fripp, or even close.
Also, John Camp was a very good bassist, but not up to par with his peers of the era (Squire, Wetton, Lake etc.).
They were very strong on keys, with John Hawken and John Tout on board.
Given that, I'm quite fond of some of their material, particularly "Mother Russia." Annie Haslam has a wonderful voice, and her version of "Turn of the Century" with Steve Howe is sublime!
While I agree with most of what you say I don't agree the band was hampered by the lack of electric lead guitar. Not having an electric lead guitarist didn't seem to hamper ELP. To answer the poster who created this thread, the band put out an outstanding debut then underwent a dramatic personal line-up change that would have confused almost anyone. The Prologue album is imo a pretty weak effort that would have disillusioned those people who enjoyed the original album. Despite all that the band seemed to put it all together in the run of albums between Ashes Are Burning and Song For All Seasons. The band peaked in popularity at around the time of the Live album when they pulled large audiences into Carnegie Hall. They had a minor hit with Northern Lights just before the Punk era hit and unfortunately their supporter base wasn't strong enough to survive the onslaught. Replacing John Tout and adopting a more synthesizer approach to the sound to compete against the new music was a total disaster. What little audience they still had would have stopped listening after the Camera Camera album.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:09
Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
I think Annie sings like a more sophisticated and classicaly trained version of a folk singer, which gives the band a more serious reputation?
That, and they WERE dead serious, it seems? They claimed to want to make 'classical rock' and disliked hard rock. They probably get their reputation from the slow and stately nature of their music, with barely a trace of humour save compositions like Trip to the fair.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:19
iluvmarillion wrote:
Not having an electric lead guitarist didn't seem to hamper ELP.
But ELP also had an outstanding instrumental soloist in Emerson. As much as I respect John Tout, I can't really place him in that category. It's strange, he actually plays the piano very fluently but is somehow not very comfortable improvising. Jon Camp seems to be, but then goes way overboard and well into the territory of showboating. Perhaps, a guitarist would have contributed more interesting layers of texture which could also have given them more options to adapt to the 80s without alienating the older fans. That also brings us to the peculiar power dynamics in the band where the rest of them seemed to struggle to accept Annie's prominence in spite of her not contributing to the songwriting process for a long time. What Atavachron said in another thread is exactly right, there is no great mystery about why some bands don't get the success you'd think they'd based on their work. They just seem to have a deathwish and make some bad decisions along the way which hurt their cause eventually.
Joined: October 12 2011
Location: Melb, Australia
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Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:20
Roger, they were definately deadly serious! I remember the first Renaissance album I bought was `Scherezade' (spelling?) on vinyl, only knowing that they were somehow progressive related, and the inside sleeve had a very stern looking photo of the band, with a grim and unsmiling Annie front and centre! I remembered thinking `Gee, luv, wouldn't hurt you to smile a bit' lol!
It kind of put me off at first, luckily the music was very grand and impressive!
I suppose looking back it really complimented the serious nature of the band and their music perfectly.
Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - November 05 2012 at 19:24
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:42
rogerthat wrote:
Yeah, I know you agree and also ClemofNazareth. I think because of the somewhat pop-ish sound in places and also that it's 1978 and not 1973, SFAS doesn't get its due vis-a-vis the other Renaissance mk ii albums. It's not really a step down at all; they really should have had some guitar in the mix anyway.
HolyMoly wrote:
Maybe they weren't "rock" enough to enjoy crossover success in the mainstream rock world. Yes had Roundabout, Pink Floyd had Money, Genesis had crossover success a little later once they got into the pop singles market. But Renaissance always had a very classical bent, with few "rocking" moments. Later on, Renaissance appeared to go the pop crossover route with stuff like Azure d'Or, and my best guess as to why that didn't work was probably lack of support from the record company, because there's good pop potential there.
A little off the topic: I'm actually very glad that they didn't rock out much, that they never really heavily employed rock guitar (at least in the classic years). I'm pretty sure that if they did, they would blow four characters. I like their brand of classical music and folk synthesized together.
Joined: May 03 2011
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Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:43
iluvmarillion wrote:
While I agree with most of what you say I don't agree the band was hampered by the lack of electric lead guitar. Not having an electric lead guitarist didn't seem to hamper ELP.
I agree, but I also think ELP wouldn't have been nearly as big without the FM staples that were guitar based. "Lucky Man" and "From The Beginning" had that folk rock thing going, and "KEN9 1rst impression P2" at least had a guitar solo, which probably helped them fit in with the more straightforward rock played on the radio. People heard those tracks first, then warmed up to their other, more proggish keyboard based stuff. Renaissance never had a gateway rockish tune to get that sort of crowd to check out their catalog.
I'm another of those that digs Prologue the most, although Ashes Are Burning is a close second.
Joined: July 02 2008
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Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:18
Prog Sothoth wrote:
iluvmarillion wrote:
While I agree with most of what you say I don't agree the band was hampered by the lack of electric lead guitar. Not having an electric lead guitarist didn't seem to hamper ELP.
I agree, but I also think ELP wouldn't have been nearly as big without the FM staples that were guitar based. "Lucky Man" and "From The Beginning" had that folk rock thing going, and "KEN9 1rst impression P2" at least had a guitar solo, which probably helped them fit in with the more straightforward rock played on the radio. People heard those tracks first, then warmed up to their other, more proggish keyboard based stuff. Renaissance never had a gateway rockish tune to get that sort of crowd to check out their catalog.
I'm another of those that digs Prologue the most, although Ashes Are Burning is a close second.
Theres a lot of people who are saying Prologue is amazing yet I still prefer Ashes are Burning or Turn of the Cards as I guess I love the rock folk feel and its mystical symbolism. How could one not love Black Flame for instance - simply incredible - watch and adore
Joined: May 03 2011
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Posted: November 08 2012 at 06:47
This prompted me to listen to Turn Of The Cards again...it's been a while. Fantastic album!
I agree that they matured somewhat after Prologue and honed their particular symphonic prog sound, but I just dig the jammy acid drenched folk-rock vibe it has I don't get from their later stuff (that fuzzy guitar tone!). I really need to hear their debut album someday.
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Posted: November 08 2012 at 10:46
Actually, outside of Rajah Khan, Prologue is already very much like 'classic' Renaissance, especially the softer compositions like Sounds of the Sea and Bound for Infinity. The title track already pays faithful homage to Rachmaninov and Bach and relies heavily on Annie's vocal prowess more than it does on rocking out.
If it is like any acid rock, it must be of the most benign variety imho.
Joined: May 03 2011
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Posted: November 08 2012 at 11:15
Well yeah, quite benign, but I still hear enough psychedelic influences like the occasional fuzz guitar to keep things groovy and less stuffy.
"Spare Some Love" has a "let's all join hands and get high as kites" late 60's feel, especially during the chorus. Almost sounds like it came out a few years late. The title track, with all its homages, imo still manages to rock out in a jazzy way through the sheer energetic rhythm section...and some buzzy guitar. Agree with "Sounds of the Sea" and "Bound for Infinity"...they could have been squirreled in anywhere in their 70's output, but I really like 'em. Camp's voice in Kiev kinda fits a trippy vibe as well.
Their sound changed with the orchestral layers for their later stuff. It was better for the material, but I still find Prologue to be their coolest, when they were just a band without all the added symphonic arrangements. I'm also obssessed with that album cover...so otherworldly.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: November 11 2012 at 22:18
Dayvenkirq wrote:
A little off the topic: I'm actually very glad that they didn't rock out much, that they never really heavily employed rock guitar (at least in the classic years). I'm pretty sure that if they did, they would blow four characters. I like their brand of classical music and folk synthesized together.
Forget that thing that I've just crossed out. They did rock! ... a lot! ... All they really needed was Tout and Sullivan.
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Posted: November 13 2012 at 01:24
Personally, always thought of Sullivan as the weak link in the band. Just something that I don't like about his penchant for the cymbals. Not that I wouldn't take him over Gavin Harrison's strange performance in the 1983 Chicago concert. Tout played piano quite beautifully but could have been a better synth player imo.
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Posted: November 13 2012 at 21:06
Dayvenkirq wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Tout played piano quite beautifully but could have been a better synth player imo.
... ... ... Why synths?!
Why not? Banks, Wakeman, Emerson and Minnear all used it and used it very well. This band was so much in love with their sound that they never bothered to change it. I am not saying change for the sake of changing it, but at least try a few different things.
^ Wrong place to ask this question. Nonetheless, you should also be able to find out via Wiki that he did play the acoustic guitar for the band.
Cool thanks!
The wiki article mentioned he played for them early, but that they got another guitar player and only seemed to mention Dunford as a songwriter after that.
Like I said, I'm not a fan, though I've listened to some live stuff on youtube and it sounds decent enough.
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cstack3 wrote:
... 
... Why synths?!
