The thin line between power and prog.

Retrovertigo wrote: A lot of people have said certain metal bands are not prog-metal, but rather power metal.  I don't understand this, because prog-metal is simply metal that is different, innovative, and contains the classical and symphonic structures of a lot of prog.  There is more prog-metal than you guys think.  A lot of the switching time signatures, epic songs, conceptual albums and classically influenced playing along with innovation can be found outside of the archives here.  I think these bands should be added. (I'd post this in Bands and Albums but it's more than a suggesting bands topic) To learn more of these bands, visit their respective overviews on allmusic where each of these bands are listed as progressive metal.  Here are a track by each, if it doesn't sound proggy enough to you, remember that bands have more than one song, I just thought I'd provide at least a song.  Try to compare what you hear to some of the prog-metal bands we have already like Dream Theater, it's the best indicator. Avantasia:  (MP3: Chalice of Agony) Borknagar:  (MP3: The Dawn of the End) Iced Earth:  (MP3: I Died For You) Into Eternity:  (MP3: Dead or Dreaming) Katatonia Lacuna Coil:  (MP3: My Wings) Madder Mortem:  (Real Media: Necropol Lit) Mental Home:  (MP3: Eternal Moan) Mnemic:  (Real Media: Deathbox) Nevermore:  (MP3: The Riverdragon Has Come) Nocturnal Rites:  (MP3: The Iron Force) Onward:  (MP3: Eye of the Nightmare) Ram-Zet:  (MP3: Queen) Skyclad Sonata Arctica:  (Real Media: The Cage) Tad Morose:  (MP3: Matters of the Dark) Throne of Chaos: (MP3: Johnny B. Dead) Tiamat:  (MP3: Gaia) Warmen:  (MP3: Trip To) If any of you think any of these aren't prog, I can discuss it.  Hopefully Max or Maani can check this out, because this could be a whole lot more stuff for the archives.

I saw and liked Skyclad once, because they use a violin too; the rest means nothing to me. But I'm not especially a pro metal expert. I am very fond of the founders of that genre too (which are High Tide).

Sonata Arctica is so awesome! I love them for sure. However, there is a difference.

Retrovertigo wrote: I'm saying that there are prog-metal bands here similar to or as proggy as the bands I've listed, and we should have these bands.  They're doing things that are very innovative.

Sonata Arctica play Speed Metal. I know why you think they might be Progressive Metal, and I like them very much (especcially Winterheart's Guild and Silence), but I don't think they fit in here. In fact, I think the problem is that bands like Rhapsody and Haggard are included, which are really not progressive, but neo-classical metal (and baroque-ish).

Many people think like that: Progressive Metal is all music from the Metal genre that is innovative, progressive or simply very complex and sophisticated. This includes many of the bands you have mentioned AND Rhapsody and Haggard (they're reasonably more complex than your average Metal band).

The problem with this definition is that then 50% of all metal bands could be called progressive ... if they do a time signature change, they're progressive, if they use violins or flutes, they're progressive.

That's no good either.

IMO there's really no way to define Prog Metal, it's entirely subjective.

The only thing that annoys me is that including Rhapsody, Nightwish and Haggard is inconsistent with the strong opposition that bands like Muse are facing - or other Prog Metal bands that are objectively (judging by reviews on other websites, and common sense) 10x more progressive than the aforementioned bands.

geezer:

It should be pointed out that many metal bands that are generally accepted to be progressive metal are not listed on this site. None of the bands that he listed, but still plenty.

I agree on what you're saying, but as I stated in my post, much of the confusion is caused by "borderline" bands that are already listed, like Radiohead in post-rock and Nightwish in prog-metal.

geezer wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: geezer: It should be pointed out that many metal bands that are generally accepted to be progressive metal are not listed on this site. None of the bands that he listed, but still plenty. I agree on what you're saying, but as I stated in my post, much of the confusion is caused by "borderline" bands that are already listed, like Radiohead in post-rock and Nightwish in prog-metal. Yes, you are right. Even I have heard prog-metal that is not in the archives but could be in my opinion. All I said is that everything i have heard from the above list is not prog-metal in my opinion. I'm confused why people always suggest these speed and power metal bands etc. that clearly are not prog. Is it just because they like these bands? I don't think that it's a good enough reason for the addition. They should suggest the lesser known prog metal bands.

I did, just recently, and only 2-3 people replied. I think we have to live with the fact that prog metal is not the top priority here. I mean, I suggest Adagio, which is a well known band, and it is ignored. Instead, obscure bands from the 70s that I will never even be able to get to know because their albums are out of print ... these bands are being added. I don't agree with that, but I accepted it.

Concerning the bands I know:

Tiamat -  I´m wondering this band is not included in the archives? Wild Honey is definitely progressive

Lacuna Coil - only a metal band to me

Skyclad - rather folk influences than progressive elements

Nevermore - I consider them as a metal band (listen to their last album "Enemies Of Reality"), but every prog metal fan should have heard "Dead Heart, In A Dead World" 

Come on, how the hell can you call a band progressive if their whole(!) rythm section consists of double-bass drumming and simple bass line. What makes them progressive? The fast guitar\keyboard classical inspired passages. This is power metal, and it was power metal for long time so why should you argue. Personally, enjoy some of it, but overall it's a very boring genre.

I can agree on part of the bands being progressive. I can hear when a band is more technical with more interesting drum fills, breaks, changing riffs, varied bass lines etc.

I can clearly see how Tiamat are Floyd inspired, and Katatonia have art-rock influeces too.

Some of the avant\post\prog-black metal bands are also interesting.

vogre wrote: Come on, how the hell can you call a band progressive if their whole(!) rythm section consists of double-bass drumming and simple bass line. What makes them progressive? The fast guitar\keyboard classical inspired passages. This is power metal, and it was power metal for long time so why should you argue. Personally, enjoy some of it, but overall it's a very boring genre.   I can agree on part of the bands being progressive. I can hear when a band is more technical with more interesting drum fills, breaks, changing riffs, varied bass lines etc.   I can clearly see how Tiamat are Floyd inspired, and Katatonia have art-rock influeces too. Some of the avant\post\prog-black metal bands are also interesting.

What band are you talking about?