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Topic ClosedThe thin line between power and prog.
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Points: 3047 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 01:35
this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read.
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:14
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

No, I am not going to discuss any of Metal subgenres, as I'm not too deep in metal and simply cannot tell black from death from doom etc etc - not my cup of tea really. Main idea is that Metal is different musical genre, and should be discussed separately..

Just so you know, black and death = fast, doom = slow .
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Points: 2383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:25
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sonata Arctica play Speed Metal.


No they don't. They play power metal.
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Points: 2373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:28

Originally posted by Logos Logos wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sonata Arctica play Speed Metal.


No they don't. They play power metal.

These are the only two metal genres I've never been able to tell apart.
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 09:49
Originally posted by eugene eugene wrote:

MikeEnRegalia:

No, I am not going to discuss any of Metal subgenres, as I'm not too deep in metal and simply cannot tell black from death from doom etc etc - not my cup of tea really. Main idea is that Metal is different musical genre, and should be discussed separately..

That's exactly what I'm saying.
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 09:54

Originally posted by Logos Logos wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sonata Arctica play Speed Metal.


No they don't. They play power metal.

 It depends which type of their songs you prefer. Songs like The Cage are Speed Metal (Melodic Speed Metal, to be precise). The slower songs are a kind of Power Metal ... but I think that those songs are not what Sonata Arctica are best at.

EDIT: I think that Sonata Arctica are a very interesting band, they are more diverse than other Speed/Power bands. They have many ballads and long acoustic sections. I'm not sure if they are Prog, the musical excellence, sophistication etc. certainly supports that. But I think that they remain too close to conventional song structures and concepts to be Prog. They are a really AWESOME band nonetheless.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Points: 189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:06
Sonata Arctica are (excuse me) so gay. Come on they sound very poppish. And they are considered as power metal. Speed metal was played by Blind Guardian and Helloween, and by other defintions by Metallica.
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:15

Check out these reviews, which describe Sonata Arctica as (Melodic) Speed Metal:

http://www.laut.de/lautstark/cd-reviews/s/sonata_arctica/sil ence/

http://music.monstersandcritics.com/reviews/article_8152.php /Album_Review_Sonata_Arctica_-_Reckoning_Night

http://www.progressiveworld.net/sonart.html

http://www.metal-inside.de/mi/review/377

http://www.metal-reviews.com/sonata.htm

 

This definition supports my theory (that they are both Melodic Speed Metal and Power Metal, depends on the song):

http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_Arctica

 
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Points: 2383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:21
Metal Storm describes them as Melodic Power Metal.
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Points: 117 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:22
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I just think that a band that is currently releasing records which are considered to be masterpieces on many important prog websites deserves more attention than obscure 70s bands. I'm not distinguishing between rock and metal here.

If you're interested in Adagio: I've posted a thread and included links to audio samples. Any feedback, be it positive or negative, is welcome!

Regarding your list of sub genres of prog rock:

I think that Progressive Metal isn't a subgenre of Progressive Rock, I think it rather goes like this:

  • Progressive Music
    • Progressive Rock
      • Progressive Symphonic Rock
      • ...
    • Progressive Metal
      • Progressive Symphonic Metal
        • Dream Theater
        • Pain Of Salvation
        • Heaven's Cry
        • Ayreon
        • Shadow Gallery
      • Progressive Power Metal
        • Symphony X
        • Kamelot
        • Beyond Twilight
      • Progressive Death Metal
        • Opeth
        • Meshuggah
        • Nile (arguably)
      • Progressive Neoclassical Metal
        • Adagio
        • Tony MacAlpine
      • Progressive Doom Metal
        • Dead Soul Tribe
        • Katatonia
      • Progressive Thrash Metal
        • Extol
        • Early Meshuggah
        • Dillinger Escape Plan
      • Progressive Experimental Metal
        • Fantomas

Edit: I included some more metal subgenres to prove my point. Before you complain, please mind that most of these bands are already listed in the archives.

close enough for me, but maybe some bands like symphony-X just have progressive elements and they're not 100% progressive. the signature changes are not the only requisite to be prog. And of course, nightwish, sonata arctica, etc....aren't prog! (but they're excelent metal bands)

 
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Points: 189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:23

I can give you 100 other sites. The problem is - that Sonata are clearly stratovarius copycats, and that band is also defined as power metal, in fact they are the fathers of melodic power metal.

 

Read about the finnish "happy metal" in the European power metal category

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_metal#European_power_meta l

or about speed metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:37

Originally posted by Logos Logos wrote:

Metal Storm describes them as Melodic Power Metal.

I'm not happy about the whole term "Speed Metal" either, I prefer "Power Metal". The problem with "Speed" is that it limits a band's style to fast songs with extreme use of double-bass. It's just that Melodic Speed Metal is a term more commonly used than Melodic Power Metal. If you have a look at the categorisation I posted at the beginning of the thread, you'll see that I didn't include Speed Metal. In fact, a Progressive Speed Metal band IMHO would always be a Progressive Power Metal band, because the limitation to fast songs would reduce the diversity in a way that rules out Progressiveness.
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:41
Originally posted by Astaroth Astaroth wrote:

close enough for me, but maybe some bands like symphony-X just have progressive elements and they're not 100% progressive. the signature changes are not the only requisite to be prog. And of course, nightwish, sonata arctica, etc....aren't prog! (but they're excelent metal bands)

I strongly disagree on Symphony X. I agree that signature changes don't make a band Prog, but Symphony X have a LOT more to offer than signature changes.

http://www.progarchives.com/mp3/Symphony%20X%20-%20V-%20The% 20New%20Mythology%20Suite%20-%2008%20-%20Egypt.mp3

Listen to this, if you haven't already done so. There are far better Symphony X tracks in terms of diversity, but it's the most progressive track that is available on progarchives. Their ultimate prog epic is The Edge Of Forever (The Damnation Game).



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:50
Originally posted by vogre vogre wrote:

I can give you 100 other sites. The problem is - that Sonata are clearly stratovarius copycats, and that band is also defined as power metal, in fact they are the fathers of melodic power metal.

Read about the finnish "happy metal" in the European power metal category

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_metal#European_power_meta l

or about speed metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal

I HATE STRATOVARIUS!

IMHO they are the perfect example of an un-progressive Power Metal band.

So far, nothing I heard from them has thrilled me in any way. They are very popular, and get very high ratings from metal magazines that have a reputation for punishing progressive elements.
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Points: 125 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 11:41

I've got a crazy idea! How about we enjoy MUSIC because it hits that part of us that we can't describe but keeps bringing us back for more. Let's stop categorizing and just enjoy. I love Nevermore, Iced Earth, Kamelot, etc. Maybe they're not "Prog" per se but still important in the fact that they progress musically without losing identity, unlike the bane of all threads on here. Kudos for pointing out Tony MacAlpine! Probably the most underrated guitarist around.
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Points: 758 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:28
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Frasse Frasse wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

  • Progressive Music
    • Progressive Rock
      • (Progressive) Symphonic Rock
      • ...
    • Progressive Metal
      • (Progressive) Symphonic Metal
        • Dream Theater
        • Pain Of Salvation
        • Heaven's Cry
      • (Progressive) Power Metal
        • Symphony X
        • Kamelot
        • Beyond Twilight
      • (Progressive) Death Metal
        • Opeth
      • (Progressive) Neoclassical Metal
        • Adagio
        • Tony MacAlpine
      • ...

 



I really can't see why you included Power Metal (or the other metal sub-genres) as a progressive genre. Altough a few power metal bands may also be progressive the most of them are not!

No one discuss the best-known power metal bands (Helloween, Gamma Ray, Hammerfall) to be progressive, or?

Altough I like many of the power metal bands I can't accept them being progressive, even if there indeed is a thin line sometimes.

Do you misunderstand me on purpose? By including Progressive Power Metal I obviously only include the PROGRESSIVE Power Metal bands. You would agree that Symphony X are progressive, wouldn't you?

As for the other bands you mentioned: I think that Helloween also are Progressive Power Metal. Gamma Ray seems not as progressive to me, the same with Hammerfall.

Listen to the Adagio sample I posted in the other thread, it will give you a good idea of what I think is Progressive Power Metal. I think that of all Power Metal bands, only 10-20% are Progressive.



Ok, I misunderstood.
To be honest, I haven't heard Symhony X, perhaps I won't misunderstand things anymore if I hear them.
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:32

Originally posted by Frasse Frasse wrote:


Ok, I misunderstood.
To be honest, I haven't heard Symhony X, perhaps I won't misunderstand things anymore if I hear them.

There are three full length tracks available as mp3, I recommend Egypt.

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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:34
DEP thrash? They're not reaaaally metal, let alone thrash . And I'm hard pressed to find progressive elements in virtually any neoclassical metal...
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Points: 21883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:39

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

DEP thrash? They're not reaaaally metal, let alone thrash . And I'm hard pressed to find progressive elements in virtually any neoclassical metal...

Ok, then DEP are Mathcore, suits me fine ... If you play any DEP track to a "traditional" Yes/Genesis fan, I'd be surprised if he'd chose any other label than Prog Metal or crap.

As for the neoclassical metal: Symphony X: V.
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:45
Symphony X are more prog than any other neoclassical metal groups I've heard... I still don't like 'em much though  - they'll have the odd minute or so I totally love and then the rest of it just doesn't do anything for me.
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