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Ricochet 
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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 Posted: November 14 2006 at 13:18 |
as far as I'm concerned, the "overrated/underrated" words have some attributes, meanings, consequences etc: - the strong disagreement of someone not believe in an album's high/low quality or referentiality, just as you pointed out Mike
- the coloquial way of saying I disagree about something; excluding strong,elevated,objective or even good personal arguments (when simply said like that: "X is over/under), it's something I totally dislike
- an obscure, definately(?)(!) close-minded intention
- Dream Theater
I don't usually accept the simple affirmation of something being overrated/underrated. If a polemic or even a contradictory discussion, it's best to bring details and to discuss more than shortly and definately more than formally what is your opinion. 
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chamberry
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Joined: October 24 2005
Location: Puerto Rico
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Points: 9008
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Posted: November 14 2006 at 14:38 |
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I don't like the word over-rated and I agree with everyone that said that they use this for their own opinions. A good example is DSoTM. I like that album, but many people just say is over-rated.
Now the word under-rated is the one I prefer and I don't have problem with. They're use in a good way in that saying that there are some obscure bands that deserve more attention.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20614
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Posted: November 15 2006 at 09:04 |
 Philéas wrote:
What's overrated in one person's opinion can very well be underrated in another person's opinion. We can't escape opinions, but does that really matter?
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Again, this over-rating stuff must be compared to what the masses think , not to a single person whois not representative per se since he is a single opinion.
Asphalt wrote:
As Sean put it, it might just be that overrated means that album gets TOO MUCH ATTENTION, and the public will not move forward [or backward] in that band's catalogue, although there are other albums that deserve as much, if not more, attention.
Underrated works in pretty much the same way. 
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That's exactly what I meant 
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 15 2006 at 22:54 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Inspired by the recent Pink Floyd discussion (DSoTM vs. WYWH) I ask: How can any album be "overrated" ... or "underrated"?
Most people simple mean by "overrated" that *in their opinion* the album should have a lower average rating. That's quite presumptuous, as - especially for albums with many reviews/ratings - they're essentially saying that they know better than all the others. They're saying "hey guys, you all submitted wrong ratings!".
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Look, what you're saying might be true if everyone used words exactly how they appear in the dictionary. The words overrated and underrated always come with the opinion attached. As far as I'm concerned, saying "In my opinion Led Zeppelin is overrated" is the same as saying "Led Zeppelin is overrated." If I applied your reasoning to another "implied opinion" word like "best," look what happens. When someone says "Shaquille O'Neal is the best basketball player ever," do you say, "Hey! I think Michael Jordan is the best ever, and by saying Shaq's the best you just called my opinion invalid!" Of course not. There's nothing wrong with me saying "I think DSOTM is overrated-it should have only star." It's my opinion, it's not like I'm saying "Look at all the idiots that gave DSOTM five stars-it should have one."
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: November 15 2006 at 23:09 |
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: November 15 2006 at 23:10 |
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^^nice
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:07 |
I agree, Mike.
The term really bugs me!  The way it tends to be used here really means "I don't like this popular thing -- it's not nearly as good as the rest of you claim to think it is."
It is sheer arrogance to presume that other people's pleasure in a piece of music is inferior, or less warranted, than your own lack of pleasure. People need to realize that taste is individual, and from the heart -- it is not calculated.
I also don't like the way "best" and "worst" are tossed around here, especially in polls. I find them, and the "O" word to be rather juvenile -- I much prefer polls that ask "which do you prefer" (or something like that), because their thoughtful wording acknowledges that all opinions are equally valid and genuine, and that "one man's trash is another's treasure."
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Australian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3278
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:13 |
If pleasure cannot be calculated, why then do we rate music using a five star system? Seems pretty calculated to me.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21806
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:55 |
Australian wrote:
If pleasure cannot be calculated, why then do we rate music using a five star system? Seems pretty calculated to me. |
Ratings are no "calculations", even on my website with more than 20 steps. It's just a way of saying "I like X more than Y" in a way which enables a computer system to calculate averages. These can then be used to compile top lists ... and these can be valuable tools to find other albums which may be worth investigating.
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Australian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3278
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:58 |
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I see, I see. But even that can be called calculation in a way.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
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Points: 89372
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:12 |
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Whenever I use the term overrated, it does not mean I dislike an album. Often I greatly enjoy the album in question (which is often, but not always, the fans favourite), but other albums by the same artist, I feel are better.
An example: I believe Peter Hammill - Nadir's Big Chance is overrated. I enjoy the album a lot, but it's not my favourite. I feel other albums by Hammill are better than this album. It's just my opinion though and it means no disrespect to how others feel about the album.
Edited by Geck0 - November 16 2006 at 03:20
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:12 |
Australian wrote:
If pleasure cannot be calculated, why then do we rate music using a five star system? Seems pretty calculated to me. |
We are giving our personal opinions in our reviews, and we have no choice but to use those stars if we want to review here. 
I have long stated that I would prefer NOT to have to assign an absolute, mathematical value to works of art. Many fine professional music reviews are written without any accompanying numerical ratings. I also really dislike the attached descriptors ("essential," "masterpiece," etc.) because though they perforce accompany my review, they are not my words, and force me to "say" the same broad, generic things about widely differing albums.
"Overrated" presumes to calculate the pleasure or genuineness of others -- that's impossible and arrogant, IMO.
Edited by Peter Rideout - November 16 2006 at 03:15
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Australian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3278
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:18 |
Maybe a “reviews without rating" system should be introduced. I’m all for it.
Edited by Australian - November 16 2006 at 03:18
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21806
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:22 |
Australian wrote:
I see, I see. But even that can be called calculation in a way. |
Yes, but displaying a numerical average does not mean that I need a calculator to decide what I'll listen to next, like "album X has 0.1 more points, so I'll choose that one". 
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Australian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3278
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:31 |
This whole topic is contradictory. You are more likely to listen to an album you’ve rated higher due to the fact that you enjoy it more so really this idea isn’t going anywhere…
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21806
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:35 |
^ Of course this isn't going anywhere - people will continue to use the word "overrated", and that's ok. It's just a little discussion, can't see the harm in that.
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Australian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 3278
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:40 |
That it true. Right now four of the nine active topics contain any of the following words: best, worst, underrated, overrated. 2 of which have been posted by the same guy.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20614
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Posted: November 16 2006 at 04:45 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
The term really bugs me! The way it tends to be used here really means "I don't like this popular thing -- it's not nearly as good as the rest of you claim to think it is."
It is sheer arrogance to presume that other people's pleasure in a piece of music is inferior, or less warranted, than your own lack of pleasure. People need to realize that taste is individual, and from the heart -- it is not calculated. |
But then again Peter, you are talking about the way the word Over-rated is misused.
This is always about semantics and rethorics.
In the proper way to use the word, over-rated sould not be negative and used to exprtess a dislike.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:29 |
"Sand's overrated. It's just tiny little rocks..."...
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21806
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Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:31 |
^ but quite many of them! 
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"Overrated" ... a contradiction in terms?
