I like Can's Tago Mago, not much but it's an ok album.

MDK from Magma is very compley and i've still listeting to it because i don't get it yet.

However, it's simply a matter of taste and if that high ratings for bands like DT and TMV are an insult to you, just ignore it.

Rashikal wrote: The fact that boring regressive neo-prog is ahead of MAGMA and CAN is seriously a disgrace. I thought this was a prog website!?

I would not be so harsh in this repect. I've got plenty of neo-prog in my collection, I know this subgenre quite well and I'm not overly excited by the whole stuff. Neo for me is rather simple, cheesy, melodic and very pleasant, often background music . Neverthless I would never call in regressive in any case.

Magma and Can representing two different subgenres of prog. I like Zeuhl (Magma). It is definitely not everybody's cup of tea. It took me long time to get into it, and even though not all Magma albums are wonderful or just good. These guys and girls released plenty of rubbish as well.

As to Krautrock and particularly Can - I am in the process of learning their works now. I own two albums Ege Bamyasi and Soon Over Babalooma, and I am not impressed to say the least. I borrowed all their albums in mp3 format from friend of mine, and spent yesterday evening listening to Unlimited Edition 1976. Can tell you that I found only one good track there - namely first one - Gomorha, and six bearable tracks (including Ibis) out of 19, all others are complete waste of time. IMO only person under heavy influence of heavy drugs can call this album masterpiece or great album.

So, calm down - this is still prog website, just tastes differ.

I know it's developping into world-wide encyclopedia of music in general, but sofar this is the best website for progressive music as well. Enjoy!

Also I would like to hear your personal expert's opinion about Can. What is so good about them? I find many of their compositions primitive, simplistic, monotonous and downright boring. Vocals are simply bad, and instrumental skills leave much to be desired - right to the point when one could wonder if they know how to play their instruments. 

Rashikal wrote: if youre telling me that can and magma arent overlooked because they had a few bad releases... welcome to all your favorite prog bands! every popular prog band here has released a sh*t album

do you realise that "overlooked" and "popular" are almost opposites??? 

Rashikal wrote: .... i think youre missing the point. Yes, Genesis, and ELP have all released more than one garbage album.

I would not argue about that. I just pointed out that you are contardicting yourself by calling Can an Magma overlooked and popular at the same time.

Also the fact that you put two completely different bands such as DT and TMV on the same bashing line tells me that you probably do not know well either of them....but it's not important.

More important is that you seem to ignore my sincere question - what so good about Can.

Rashikal wrote: The fact that boring regressive neo-prog is ahead of MAGMA and CAN is seriously a disgrace. I thought this was a prog website!?

This is probably so because music that sounds good is usually appreciated. And by the way, I could record the sounds of me playing a tuba with a squirrel in it, and it would be very prog, yet it would sound like crap! The point: just because something is progressive doesn't mean people want to hear it. The simple fact is that symphonic prog is liked by more people and is therefore higher on the list. You can either cry about it or simply listen to what you want to listen and be happy about that. I don't come on the forum and complain that Saen's Escaping from the Hands of God isn't higher on the Top 100. Why? Because it's pointless to do so.

Rashikal wrote: i am definitely familiar with TMV and Dream Theater. Can is probably the most progressive band on this website, and their inaccesibility turns off most listeners. can is important to all bands psychadellic and trance

OK then, I shall bear it in mind,

and next time when I hear random set of noises with monotonous rhythm in the background, performed by probably completely stoned guys, and called Ethnological Forgery Series no.666, the idea that this rubbish is ultimately "important to all bands psychadellic and trance" will make my listening much more joyful..

Rashikal wrote: another reason magma is overlooked - the mediocre alterna-emo-prog band coheed and cambria is getting credit for consecutive concept albums, while magma already did this in the 70s... eugene go listen to some marillion or IQ if can is too much for you

I do not know Coheed & Cambria yet, hence difficult to judge. But I know Magma and like some of their works very much. Thus your point about "getting credit" sounds non-sense to me.

Marillion and IQ are not my favourites, and never were, even remotly. Can, as far as I know is nowhere near "too much" - but rather "too little". Thus your second point or suggestion is simply bullsh*t, leaving alone the fact that I can live without your suggestion of that kind.

And you still failed to reply constructively on what so good about Can, so either you do not know the answer or cannot express your opinion in civilised manner - too bad either way. 

Rashikal wrote: another reason magma is overlooked - the mediocre alterna-emo-prog band coheed and cambria is getting credit for consecutive concept albums, while magma already did this in the 70s...

So did Gong!

Can are a very  excellent band and deserve more credit than they get. But there influence on mainstream music makes up for it.

Rashikal wrote: It's almost an insult to me that Dream Theater and The Mars Volta are placed more highly than these two monumental bands.

Talk about a 180 degree turn there, Rashikal.

Rashikal wrote: post rock wouldnt be around if not for Can

Gotta admit you have a point there

If you listen to Cul De Sac, they are in between CAN (to the point of too close for comfort) and early Kraftwerk in their first albums but recently they have evilved towards post rock

They are not overlooked. They are the most reknowned bands in their subgenres. I also notice that these bands (or at least Magma) have a lot of threads up here on them. It's a matter of opinions accessibility I suppose. They're much harder for the average music fan (prog or not) to get into than Dream Theater and The Mars Volta. I don't think many overlook these bands on this website. Outside of prog fans, sure they are.

I love Magma, and never really got into Can. Nevertheless, both bands deserve much credit and respect for their accomplishments.

Lastly, I think it's ridiculous to be bashing Dream Theater, The Mars Volta, Marillion and Coheed. Whether you like them or not, you know that they are either massively influential, talented, great songwriters, etc. in their own respects. Marillion is certainly not insincere, and I don't think any prog fans are giving Coheed credit for having the first extended concept. I can, to an extent, understand your despair about this. More power to you for expressing your feelings about Magma and Can, but you don't need to be bashing other [great] bands in doing so.

I perfer Holger Czukay's On the Way to the Peak of Normal to anything else in Can's discography. Successfully relates his great cut and paste technique and after the Caribbean excursion melody entered into the picture. A TRUE CLASSIC!

I prefer Dun's Eros or Eskaton's 4 Visions to Magma's catalog, I think the so called Zeuhl sound was matured in the early 80's as Christian Vander couldnt seem to ever clarify the potion.

IMO!

Can and Magma are way overrated, but deserve credit for later bands that used them as an influence, but often out did the originators, because the style was awkward and basically left undeveloped. Can and Magma both deserve something for going away from the trends. Great? I dont think so, most of their catalogs are a difficult listen even today when difficult/noise is the measuring stick. I do understand where young and rebellious would think their great, Hey their different and unique, YES

Rashikal wrote: The fact that boring regressive neo-prog is ahead of MAGMA and CAN is seriously a disgrace. I thought this was a prog website!?

I believe that may be attributable to the fact that the majority of folks who partake in this forum are young. I can not state this for a fact as I don't know the actual demographics of PA, but from my experience w/ other users here, and the tenor/subject of a lot of threads, I would venture that my supposition is a correct one.

Cleo

For fans of Can:

In Japan this summer they re-released 8 discs from their catalog as 'mini LPs.' Here it's pictured w/ the promo box you got if you bought all titles.

Tholomyes wrote: I like Can's Tago Mago, not much but it's an ok album. MDK from Magma is very compley and i've still listeting to it because i don't get it yet. However, it's simply a matter of taste and if that high ratings for bands like DT and TMV are an insult to you, just ignore it.

Taste is one way of looking at it. But it is impossible for me to say "Can and Magma are just two bands that many people seem to like". Can is so, so ahead of its time, and Magma is such a strong, free band, both are quite rare and inspirated, and creativity is not an issue. While many bands reached for inspiration in musical forms from the past (Jethro Tull; sorry there, Jethro fans), CAN and MAGMA (and other bands, such as Art Bears, just to mention one) went directly into experimentation, in order to bring weird, advanced sounds into the world. I think I'm getting a bit emotional here, perhaps an scientific aproach would do better in order to describe what I think about creation and how does that validate the work of any artist. Anyway, on this bands, it is not just a matter of taste. I don't like many things, but I'm still capable of recognize conceptual and poetic structures on any form of art, beyond my own taste for things...

Mago Tago is one the most freaked out albums you'll ever listen to, yet it was also incredibley influentcial for mainstream music in the future. That shows that there not overlooked.

As for Magma I have nothing to say.

Rashikal wrote: These two bands are extremely progressive, yet there are ususlly no threads about them and are not high up the top 100. Appreciate these two bands here! It's almost an insult to me that Dream Theater and The Mars Volta are placed more highly than these two monumental bands.

I fully agree with this guy... of course it is mainly a matter of taste but still it seems correct to me.  I would add that I think Can is more overlooked than Magma on this website whereas in the world at large its the reverse... you can go to tower records and get Tago Mago but you are not very likely to find Udu Wudu or MDK.

Manunkind wrote: Judging by the samples provided here they sound quite cool, but they don't live up to the hype IMO (yes, there is a hype surrounding them). Especially Jaki Liebezeit's drumming sounded more interesting on paper...

Well... Ive got to disagree with u there... Not so much about the hype and influence that can has brought upon many musicians, but about Jaki's drumming.  In fact, that was the 'hook' that pulled me into can.  Hes not renown for his playing par sae, as he dosen't focus on that as much as for his ability to read a melody and create a rhythm to accompany it.  And it can be any rhythm too, the repetoire he had was quite large (and I only have 3 can albums.... am eagerly awaiting more).  Sure, he dosent do 'runs' or solos, but he holds a rhythm and drives it to its conclusion more so than most other drummers that I can recall (most drummers tend to rely on the other band members to finish the journey for them). 

Enjoy whatever turns thou on.

edible_buddha wrote: Manunkind wrote: Judging by the samples provided here they sound quite cool, but they don't live up to the hype IMO (yes, there is a hype surrounding them). Especially Jaki Liebezeit's drumming sounded more interesting on paper...  Well... Ive got to disagree with u there... Not so much about the hype and influence that can has brought upon many musicians, but about Jaki's drumming.  In fact, that was the 'hook' that pulled me into can.  Hes not good for his playing par sae, but for his ability to read a melody and create a rhythm to accompany it.  Sure, he dosent do 'runs' or solos, but he holds a rhythm and drives it to its conclusion more so than most other drummers that I can recall (most drummers tend to rely on the other band members to finish the journey for them).  Enjoy whatever turns thou on.

Sorry, didn't see your post.

I agree with you generally - the point is whenever I listen to him, I can't help thinking that he could have done what he did better, if you know what I'm saying... it's like he's being Jaki Liebezeit only in 75%. Not because he's not soloing or whatever - simply because that pounding rhythm is only 75% of him, whereas I can sort of imagine another  pounding rhythm that would be Jaki Liebezeit in 100%. Hope I'm making sense...

Manunkind wrote: I'm yet to hear anything extraordinary by either band. I will try to find more of their music somehow; but the samples here seemed quite conventional to me. True, there are vocal experiments (which I don't like, BTW) but underneath that... nice, but nothing groundbreaking, IMO.

Thats ok... Neither Can or Magma are for everyone... And Im not that much of a fan of Michael Moresly or Damo Suzuki's  voice either (although Future days does mix Damo to the background, where, i think, he is more suited).  As a (newly converted) fan of Can, I listen to the music as a sort of carpet ride that allows you to see the sights to a rather convoluted aural landscape... and I allow that to sweep over the vocals. But, then again, Im rather 'to the left' with my tastes... Its all subjective overall.

Cant say anything about Magma.  Have only heard the tracks that PA have streamed, and I thoroughly enjoy some of their ideas, but I'm definitely too green to form an opinion about them yet...

Both were incredibly advanced for their time.

Holger Czukay's production on Can's early albums was way ahead of its time, especially when you realise that up to 1973 everything was recorded on 2 track in a disused cinema. They also had a near telepathic interplay, as can be heard on Peel Sessions, Radio Waves and Live (all live recordings). Jaki Liebezeit's drumming was not particularly flashy, but his metronomic precision was uncanny.

Magma were doing incredibly advanced stuff rhythmically - Chris Cutler said that they were the first rock band he ever heard use a 5:4 rhythm (that's five evenly paced beats in the space of four, not 5/4 time). To hear just how complex they could be, listen to Didier Lockwood's violin solo during the version of Kontarkohsz on Live:Hhai and try to keep track of the different rhythms each musician is playing.

It's also fair to say that both bands produced albums that don't sound dated 30 or more years on. As good as their more mainstream contemporaries were, most Genesis, Yes, Tull and ELP from the early to mid 70s sounds very much of its time, whereas Can and Magma (along with a few others like Faust) still sound innovative.   

Manunkind wrote: edible_buddha wrote: Manunkind wrote: Judging by the samples provided here they sound quite cool, but they don't live up to the hype IMO (yes, there is a hype surrounding them). Especially Jaki Liebezeit's drumming sounded more interesting on paper...  Well... Ive got to disagree with u there... Not so much about the hype and influence that can has brought upon many musicians, but about Jaki's drumming.  In fact, that was the 'hook' that pulled me into can.  Hes not good for his playing par sae, but for his ability to read a melody and create a rhythm to accompany it.  Sure, he dosent do 'runs' or solos, but he holds a rhythm and drives it to its conclusion more so than most other drummers that I can recall (most drummers tend to rely on the other band members to finish the journey for them).  Enjoy whatever turns thou on. Sorry, didn't see your post. I agree with you generally - the point is whenever I listen to him, I can't help thinking that he could have done what he did better, if you know what I'm saying... it's like he's being Jaki Liebezeit only in 75%. Not because he's not soloing or whatever - simply because that pounding rhythm is only 75% of him, whereas I can sort of imagine another  pounding rhythm that would be Jaki Liebezeit in 100%. Hope I'm making sense...

Actually, you do make some sense.

Its just that Im not used to some one with 75% of Jaki, and it makes a refreshing change for me to enthusiastically play the air drums with a drummer that I can relate to (in that way).  There are times when I listen to can where i find my mind wandering and hearing another 'layer' on top of that rhythm, but, for me, it occasionally takes a talented drummer to get an idea in that direction.  I've heard that the dude that drums for Guru Guru is somewhat better, but I have yet to hear him (forgotten his name). 

P.S. Where have you heard the '100%' rhythm.  Im a fan of a good beat and would like such in my CD collection (I currently have Guru Guru's Kanguru on order...............waiting.............waiting.....).

P.P.S. I like your sig.

edible_buddha wrote: Manunkind wrote: edible_buddha wrote: Manunkind wrote: Judging by the samples provided here they sound quite cool, but they don't live up to the hype IMO (yes, there is a hype surrounding them). Especially Jaki Liebezeit's drumming sounded more interesting on paper...  Well... Ive got to disagree with u there... Not so much about the hype and influence that can has brought upon many musicians, but about Jaki's drumming.  In fact, that was the 'hook' that pulled me into can.  Hes not good for his playing par sae, but for his ability to read a melody and create a rhythm to accompany it.  Sure, he dosent do 'runs' or solos, but he holds a rhythm and drives it to its conclusion more so than most other drummers that I can recall (most drummers tend to rely on the other band members to finish the journey for them).  Enjoy whatever turns thou on. Sorry, didn't see your post. I agree with you generally - the point is whenever I listen to him, I can't help thinking that he could have done what he did better, if you know what I'm saying... it's like he's being Jaki Liebezeit only in 75%. Not because he's not soloing or whatever - simply because that pounding rhythm is only 75% of him, whereas I can sort of imagine another  pounding rhythm that would be Jaki Liebezeit in 100%. Hope I'm making sense... Actually, you do make some sense. Its just that Im not used to some one with 75% of Jaki, and it makes a refreshing change for me to enthusiastically play the air drums with a drummer that I can relate to (in that way).  I've heard that the dude that drums for Guru Guru is somewhat better, but I have yet to hear him (forgotten his name).  P.S. Where have you heard the '100%' rhythm.  Im a fan of a good beat and would like such in my CD collection (I currently have Guru Guru's Kanguru on order...............waiting.............waiting.....). P.P.S. I like your sig.

I've only heard 100% of Jaki in my head. Really, I will listen to more of these bands when and if I get a chance. Again, their concepts are wicked, I'd just like to hear them done 100%!

Thanks for the sig complement

C'est la vie.

Language issues (major factor) and even era (obviously a factor) aside, Can and Magma obviously just don't have the mass appeal of the other acts named.

What of it? Their fans like them, and not all music can be equally popular.

You can't just order people to appreciate "difficult" art.

Somehow, I just can't get anyone to pick up a little fight with me, no matter what I say abou ay band...

cuncuna wrote: Somehow, I just can't get anyone to pick up a little fight with me, no matter what I say abou ay band...

All right, I'll help you out.

(headbutts Cuncuna)

Seriously though, Can and Magma were extremely innovative for rock music, but I heard similar stuff done by jazz musicians and done significantly better to boot, so the elements that should strike me as innovative simply don't do so.

Syzygy wrote: They also had a near telepathic interplay, as can be heard on Peel Sessions, Radio Waves and Live (all live recordings). Jaki Liebezeit's drumming was not particularly flashy, but his metronomic precision was uncanny.

I wonder if this is the biggest reason why I often find listening to Ege Bamyasi a near hypnotic experience; I can easily push the repeat for this record three or four times once I get in the groove, heh.

I would already have expanded my Can collection if it wasn´t for the high prizes of their records  

Still only contemplating on buying something in regards to Magma

Manunkind wrote: cuncuna wrote: Somehow, I just can't get anyone to pick up a little fight with me, no matter what I say abou ay band... All right, I'll help you out. (headbutts Cuncuna) Seriously though, Can and Magma were extremely innovative for rock music, but I heard similar stuff done by jazz musicians and done significantly better to boot, so the elements that should strike me as innovative simply don't do so.

Thanks... and yes, but if we are going to that territory, then we can simply go satright to those tough contemporary composers, such as Berio or Stockhausen. They really really pushed the limits of music... Magma, I agree. A very curious mix between modern opera and John Coltrane. Can, on the other hand, presents a much more misterious background, and, as someone has already said, really brought something "new" to the world. Something that is feeding too many bands now...