Did Classical Music influence Prog? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: September 09 2009 at 09:43

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

Good thread, and so what if its been done a million times before ?. Not all of us have been members for a million years.

So I guess that makes it reasonable to not find 5 seconds to use the search function and if in the event they found the thread could be locked due to being old, asking an admin to re open it right?
Because you know in this society it's too hard to take that effort, using the mouse to click on the search function IS JUST TOO DAMN HARD
:rolleyes:

Perhaps one of the disincentives for unearthing an old thread on the same topic is that it would contain opinions subsequently relinquished by the original posters. Like many others, my opinions on a variety of musical subjects has changed over time. Another perspective is that PA has many new members who joined after such previous threads, and 'fresh eyes on old ideas' etc. Is storage space on the server a burning issue for you ?

However perhaps the biggest reason for not revisiting an old thread on the same subject is the distinct possibility that you may have contributed to same, thus precluding the onerous chore of having to wade through the sort of self rightous indignation as encapsulated in the quoted example above. We should be thankful for small mercies, as this is probably just a titbit from your caps locked arsenal of spleen. Hope both your day and life improves immeasurably in the interim

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Posted: September 09 2009 at 05:44

moshkito wrote:

It's bad enough trying to discuss "music" here, when some folks have never heard Albinoni, Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Puccini, Stravinsky ... and then consider themselves experts on prog ...

[/QUOTE]

Get a load of this guy Thumbs Down

You can make some good informative and well thought out posts when you want to, but seriously take elitist crap somewhere else dude, it really doesn't reflect well on the site.
As has been said, I don't think anyone is claiming to an expert. Some here are more knowledgeable than others, but ain't no self proclaimed experts here, look elsewhere for that.
I haven't heard Mahler, nor Albinoni (But am familiar with works from the others you mentioned) and to be honest I'm not that interesting in going out of my way to hear them either.
And shock horror shock, some people around here probably aren't classical music fans at all, so it is unreasonable they haven't heard them ( Albinoni, Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Puccini, Stravinsky)?

Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down

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Posted: September 09 2009 at 05:35

ExittheLemming wrote:

Good thread, and so what if its been done a million times before ?. Not all of us have been members for a million years.

Windhawk

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 22:13

Quasar wrote:

If one is going to take a shot at re-working (to be polite) an already great piece of music, one had better have something new to offer, and thrashing around on a Hammond isn't my idea of 'new'.

Keith

Then you really should check out mekong Delta's thrash/prog metal version of Mussorgsky's most regarded works.

Their take isn't by far successfull all the time, but a select few of them are truly superb - an undeniably original ;-)

Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 18:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

^ of course if you wanted to take the more simplistic view, symphonic as an adjective can just mean "harmonious in sound" and have no classical music connotations at all - though that is not the meaning of the word when applied to Symphonic Prog, Symphonic Rock or Symphonic Metal.

As you know Dean, I often said and talked with Cert about how inadequate the denomination Symphonic is.

None of us have the slightest idea why it was chosen, we can only guess that because the general identification of Classical and Symphonic or the use of Symphony Orchestras by some bands or whatever.

But any other denomination won't be successful, because every site and Prog book recognises the term Symphonic¨Prog.

It's the same problem with the duality of the term Progressive (as genre) and progressive (as adjective), but any person who tries to change the term Progressive Rock is loosing his time.

Iván

I believe it was simply that some music journalist in the 70s thought these bands sounded more like a Symphonic Orchestra than a Rock Band and the name stuck, using the term to describe the music came after. I remember the term being applied to Yes as a band, (though not necessarily their music), while I was still at school (so before 1973).

What?

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 18:11

As you know Dean, I often said and talked with Cert about how inadequate the denomination Symphonic is.

None of us have the slightest idea why it was chosen, we can only guess that because the general identification of Classical and Symphonic or the use of Symphony Orchestras by some bands or whatever.

But any other denomination won't be successful, because every site and Prog book recognises the term Symphonic¨Prog.

It's the same problem with the duality of the term Progressive (as genre) and progressive (as adjective), but any person who tries to change the term Progressive Rock is loosing his time.

Iván

Dean

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 17:49

^ of course if you wanted to take the more simplistic view, symphonic as an adjective can just mean "harmonious in sound" and have no classical music connotations at all - though that is not the meaning of the word when applied to Symphonic Prog, Symphonic Rock or Symphonic Metal.

What?

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 17:41

Quasar wrote:

Though I do understand your point, you have contradicted yourself. If the genres are ever changing, why is it fuile and absurd to attempt to change them?

Please, don't try to mix apples and oranges.

Progressive Rock changes, to the point that the creation of various sub-genres was necessary, in the early 70's there was no Neo Prog, for example.

But the name SYMPHONIC as the name PROGRESSIVE ROCK are so vastly expanded that it's almost impossible to change the DENOMINATION, the music will change, probably new denominations will be created, but Genesis, Yes and renaissance will still be called Symphonic in 20, 30 or 40 years, because the denomination is almost universal.

Your name is Keith, you may believe the name doesn't describe you and change it legally, but be sure people will still call you Keith and many will be confused. in the same way using any term but Symphonic will create confusion and probably will be ignored.

And even if we change it, any name will present the same problems, if we call it Classical Influenced, people will say that this is not totally accurate and it's true, it's only a name

Well no-one asked me! I just get shoved into Neo Prog because of the era ('80s) which, frankly, is insulting as a composer, and gives people the wrong idea, to my mind, because Neo Prog just means "sounds like Marillion", from what I read.

That's a product of prejudice against Neo Progressive, because this sub-genre is much more than "Like Marillion", a good example is Pendragon, Pure sounds as no previous Pendragon album, but still is Neo Prog, Magenta released an album as REVOLUTIONS with all the characteristics of a Symphonic release, but the due to their later releases they fit better in Neo Prog, and have no relation with Marillion.

Discipline, one of he most elaborate and particular bands, have a Neo Prog and a Symphonic release, and they have nothing in common with Marillion.

I believe that Neo Prog is offensive for nobody.

I realise the trends are fairly uniform accross the sites, but I am still confused about it.

When rock, blues, jazz, folk, etc., influences are quoted, they are well defined and clear, but when the symphonic influence is quoted I fail to see any sensible reasoning for this. I'm not denying the influence, as there is some, but Symphonic is a clear and precise word, yet it's use as a prog rock genre is driven entirely by unclear and unprecise reasoning.

As you see in the definition, we believe that the word Symphonic is not the most adequate to describe what we know as Symphonic Prog (saidit long before you joined this forum), but any new term would be ignored by most of the Prog community and would create confusion.

I'm tempted to say that most don't know what they're talking about, but that would be disrespectful, and I don't mean to be that.

No, but yet you imply we are all wrong and you are right.

So my main aim at entering this discussion was to hear, more directly, what reasoning there is. And I do have a much better idea now.

Don't worry, I also new the reason of this questions.

Iván

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 17:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Deleted due to next post.

I was about to reply to this, but I respect your decision to delete it, even though I did read it.

Keith

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 17:11

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

.....but it is so widely accepted by the Progressive Rock community that would be absurd and futile for anybody to attempt a change after so much time.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Prog Sub-genres are wide and ever changing, unlike terms as Symphony in the Classical context.

Though I do understand your point, you have contradicted yourself. If the genres are ever changing, why is it fuile and absurd to attempt to change them?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

we wrote a definition of Symphonic Prog with the help of people who (with respect for you) know a lot more of music, ask Certif1ed what is Prog and his definition will be totally different to any other musician in the site.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I don't believe so, if you check every Prog site and piece of Prog literature, most of the bands are located in the exact place as we have placed them, some more, some less, maybe we don't use Classical standards to decide it (because it's impossible in Prog), but at the end we reach the same conclusions.

Iván

I realise the trends are fairly uniform accross the sites, but I am still confused about it.

I'm tempted to say that most don't know what they're talking about, but that would be disrespectful, and I don't mean to be that.

So my main aim at entering this discussion was to hear, more directly, what reasoning there is. And I do have a much better idea now.

Keith

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 16:13

Quasar wrote:

Really? An Opera is Symphonic?

No, an Opera is not a Symphony, never said or implied this.

I always stated that Symphony or Symphonic is a wrong and ambiguous term to describe what we know as Symphonic Prog, it could had been called in many ways like Classical influenced, or Cult Rock or whatever.

Before ending this short description I feel necessary to say (In order to be strictly accurate) that the term Symphonic is not 100% exact, because these bands very rarely played symphonies and was probably used because the music that influenced the genre was performed by Symphony Orchestras, but it is so widely accepted by the Progressive Rock community that would be absurd and futile for anybody to attempt a change after so much time.

Iván Melgar Morey, Peru 2006

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#4

Most of the real experts (not me) agree that the name was chosen (not by me) probably because some bands used Symphony Orchestras or because somebody identified Classical influence with the figure of a Symphony.

So if you expect to find a perfect equivalence between the Symphony and Symphonic Prog, you will get nowhere, Symphonic Prog is mainly Progressive Rock with Classical (Understood in a wide sense) influence or ele,ments or quotes blended with Prog, and normally the Rock Opera and is part of Symphonic Prog.

This is widely explained in

Genre: Art (Symphonic) Rock,
Manifestation: A Rock Opera

http://www.progressor.net/articles/ar_ropera.html

Of course the Opera has little if any relation with a Symphony, but the Rock Opera or better said the Prog Opera is part of Symphonic Prog.

Very useful answer to my questions, it confirms my suspicions.

Of course we are in uncharted territory, the Symphonic Prog of the 70's is not the Symphonic Prog of the late 90's, for example the Eastern Europe bands post Berlin Wall added a strong Folk component to Symphonic Prog, and sometimes the Folk Prog Team and the Symphonic Team discuss hours about a determined band or where they belong, and at the end we decide on a common feeling more than in a written rule.

Prog Sub-genres are wide and ever changing, unlike terms as Symphony in the Classical context

With all due respect, Ivan, you are billed on this forum as "Symphonic Prog Specialist". But you never answer any direct questions about why something is Symphonic, only vague talk about "feelings".

We explained this 100 times (honestly I'm tired of doing this over and over), Idon't need to answer an interrogatory to every guy who comes here.

we wrote a definition of Symphonic Prog with the help of people who ) know a lot more of music an took a lot of time becauser we hardly agreed about some issues, but again we reached a concensus among the Collaborators and Administrators.

For God's sake, nobidy has a defnitive defuibnition of Progressive Rock inside or outside Prog Archives.

Some people believe Gentle Giant is a Symphonic band. others believe it's Folk (Sean Trane has asked them) and the majority believe it's Eclectic, ask all of them why and the arguments will be contradictory, but at the end with problems or anything, we reach a concensus.

I know everyone here is a prog fan and I respect all the work done, but the genre and influence issue, and choices about what band goes where, is bizaar to say the least.

I don't believe so, if you check every Prog site and piece of Prog literature, most of the bands are located in the exact place as we have placed them, some more, some less, maybe we don't use Classical standards to decide it (because it's impossible in Prog), but at the end we reach the same conclusions with a few excptions

Sometimes it's hard to agree because the clasification is a matter of personal opinions, a good example is your band, Quasar appears as Neo Prog in your MySpace page (as in PA, GEPR and Proggnosis) but as Symphonic in your Facebook page, so sometimes the location of a band is a bit bizarre everywhere.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 08 2009 at 16:54

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 15:47

Deleted due to next post.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 08 2009 at 17:03

Quasar

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 15:32

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The Wall is closer to a Rock Opera than to Psyche or Space Rock and the Rock Opera is mainly Symphonic.

Really? An Opera is Symphonic?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

And yes, it's an opinion and also a feeling I get, when you work in a team so much time, feelings also have to be considered.

Very useful answer to my questions, it confirms my suspicions.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I studied 5 years of Classical piano and I'm a fanatic of the Baroque - Late Romantic era, and as me, most of the people here have at least an idea of the great musicians.

Nobody considers huim/herselfan expert on Prog, we are only here to work hours, days, weeks and months for no pay, in tedious works nobody else wants to do.

With all due respect, Ivan, you are billed on this forum as "Symphonic Prog Specialist". But you never answer any direct questions about why something is Symphonic, only vague talk about "feelings".

I know everyone here is a prog fan and I respect all the work done, but the genre and influence issue, and choices about what band goes where, is bizaar to say the least.

Keith

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 15:16

moshkito wrote:

I tried and tried but I couldn`t find any classical influences in Guru Guru`s first album UFO.

If there are any, it is only in a compositional sense ... most of the stuff they do tends to start with a theme and end with the same theme ... and that tends to be called something like ... a sonata ... in most classical music ... in fact ... isn't that the single biggest thing about the majority of the music mentioned here?

I just love the way the composition aspect is almost dismissed as irrelevant when being discussed here.

A Sonata is a musical form, it has quite strict structural requirements, it does NOT have the same theme at the begining and the end, and the instruments used are completely irrelevant.

I think a little study of classical music is in order here before such remarks are made?

Keith

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 14:27

HI,

I don't believe ELP came from The Nice, ELP came from the union of Keith Emerson, Greg Lake and Carl Palmer, each one with his own experiemnce, influences and musical preferences.

BTW: Refugee was a change from the Nice, because Moraz is a great influence, in the same way Relayer sounds almost as no previous Yes album because of Patrick.

Well said ... you translated my thoughts a bit better ... I do think ... somewhat that The Nice had its really good things ... and what made ELP stronger in my book was that they were well suited to help accentuate lyrics ... and make them special at times ... not to mention make the music jump out like crazy!

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 14:21

Thanks for your PM Moshkito, clarified many things.

Iván

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 14:03

moshkito wrote:

This is actually scary and pretty much shows you why the definition of the music needs to be cleared up ... and not pinpointed to something that it is not.

Pink Floyd, like a lot of other bands in those days had their early growth in the pop area ... because it was all that was being done for the most part ... and you can see the effect that the arts and whatever else was having in London ...

But the important thing here is ... that folks like Syd Barrett noticed this ... and also went out and put together Insterstellar Overdrive and Astronomy Domine ... which are NOT pop music and no where near anything that resembles "pop music" ... it has way more in sync with the normal precepts of the time, which was experiment to create new sounds ... and PF's sister band also did the same thing, The Soft Machine ... and they even went a bit further ... within the jazz confines ... and made fun of the pop context in the end of one of their pieces ... (the abc bit is awesome!) ...

PF, like so many other bands grew ... and changed ... and that is more of a credit to their intelligence and desire to do something more with music than it is ..."prog" or "symphonic" ... or any other silly description that obviously can not even consider the story of the band ... since "The Wall" is not even close to either of those ... it more fits "rock opera" than anything else ... but no one is going to discuss that here I don't think!

The central point is that tey evolved, Pink Floyd of Piper at the Gates of Dawn is not the same Pink Floyd as in Wish You Weere Here, the sound, style, everything is different, that's the whole point.

The tags or sub-genres are not silly for some of us, this are aids to help understand the differences between Prog bands, if you don0't like terms like Symphonic, Psyche or even Progressive, please feel free to ignore them, but this is a site based in sub-genres.

I believe it's more scary to affirmm that Pink Floyd was a P¨syche band from the 60's and that nothing changed.

BTW: The Rock Opera is mentioned in a later post

As for the ELP/Nice ... If my name was Keith, or any of the other two members of The Nice ... I would be offended ... ELP came out of The Nice, and it was perhaps that Emerson might have wanted to do more pop/rock oriented stuff than another symphonic piece called "The Grand Canyon Suite" or the nice stuff that they did later after Keith in Refugee ....

But that also takes away from Keith and some of the stuff he did with ELP ... and my thought still is that if you take away the popp'y stuff like the Sheriff and other dumb stuff, they would no doubt be one of the best of them out there ... unffortunately they did not take their music seriously ... and neither did I!

Don't get your point, my point was bout a membersaying that The Nice and ELP are essentially the same thing,

This statement IMHO is offensive for the other members of both bands, being that if both bands are the same, and the only connection between them is Keith Emerson, then the only person responsible for the sound of both bands is Keith Emerson.

I don't believe ELP came from The Nice, ELP came from the union of Keith Emerson, Greg Lake and Carl Palmer, each one with his own experiemnce, influences and musical preferences.

BTW: Refugee was a change from the Nice, because Moraz is a great influence, in the same way Relayer sounds almost as no previous Yes album because of Patrick.

Iván

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 13:24

I don't regard Pink Floyd as a Prog band, They were a Psychadelic band from the 60s and really nothing changed for them.

Then lets remove Pink Floyd from Prog Archives, GEPR, Progressive Ears, Progressive World, Progressoir and from each and every Prog text that considers Pink Floyd as a Prog band.

If you can't notice that the Psyche band of the first Pink Floyd albums is not the same of DSOTM, WYWH or The Wall that have even Symghonic leanings, well, we are speaking two different languages

And why ELP and not The Nice? The Nice came first, and they were both virtually the same thing, if you're talking "pioneers" surely The Nice should get the credit, not ELP.

Because in every piece of Prog literature, ELP is one of the big 6 Prog bands and The Nice not, as a fact, most sites consider them as Proto Prog and not as a Prog band.

The Nice was considered as Proto Prog by Prog Archives, until the Symphonic Team with me on it, moved them to Symphonic.

This is actually scary and pretty much shows you why the definition of the music needs to be cleared up ... and not pinpointed to something that it is not.

Edited by moshkito - September 08 2009 at 13:24

Big Ears

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 13:14

Isn't repect mutual?

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Posted: September 08 2009 at 13:07

moshkito wrote:

It's bad enough trying to discuss "music" here, when some folks have never heard Albinoni, Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Puccini, Stravinsky ... and then consider themselves experts on prog ...

I believe this is a disrespectful comment, most of us who dare to comment, have classical formation, as a fact I studied 5 years of Classical piano and I'm a fanatic of the Baroque - Late Romantic era, and as me, most of the people here have at least an idea of the great musicians.

Nobody considers huim/herselfan expert on Prog, we are only here to work hours, days, weeks and months for no pay, in tedious works nobody else wants to do.

There have been a lot of interesting discussions about Prog and it's connection with politics, literature, etc, I consider most of the people here well informed.

So please, show some respect for people who is working for you to enjoy the site.

Iván