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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Topic: Right/Left stereotype Posted: October 30 2008 at 01:06 |
I've been thinking about this a fair bit lately. The stereotype here in the USA is that the left wants big government and they're all a bunch of atheists. Where as, the right are God loving/fearing people that want much less government.
This makes no sense to me as:
1. Religion dictates laws unto its followers, God is omnipresent, and your fate is determined by the likes of God. Therefore, it is an overbearing government that sees into all aspects of your life.
2. Jesus/God/most Religions taught of many good qualities to be. Treat others as you would have them treat you. Thou Shalt not Kill, Thou shalt not steal. Then there was that whole thing where Jesus broke up a loaf of bread and a few fish and shared it with a WHOLE bunch of people (wealth was spread).
3. If God governs all, and "thou shalt worship no other gods" then wouldn't the fact the government is the governing body be controversial and against the teachings of the religion? Shouldn't the followers be more of an anarchist group (at least in terms of an organized earthly government)?
4. Even in the case of a government set up to follow the laws of the religion, those in the government still determine the law of the land on the people, rather than God.
I hope this isn't offensive, or becomes a big argument or anything because both politics and religion are quite personal. I'm just curious as to how these two types of institutions can exist together and/or mesh together. And to get back to my original premise of the left/right religion stereotype, I am confused as to how a stereotype could emerge. Discuss if you can.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 02:36 |
There are other aspects to the right/lest spectrum, such as economics and freedom from government.
I've been thinking a lot about religion. (In fact, I wrote a Facebook note earlier tonight saying I agree with Kant and that people are not acting morally when they follow religion's codes just because the religion says so.)
Regarding religion, generally as education rises, strict adherence to religion falls. My friend told me yesterday that Blue states have higher college degree rates than Red states, and I believe it. Needless to say (yet I'm doing so now because someone would point it out otherwise), being conservative does not mean your stupid. I believe most morally conservative people think the Bible told them so, that's true, and anyone who tries to convince them otherwise is the devil. These people are crazy.
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8632
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 03:17 |
Using logic is pointless. The mechanisms of the U.S. political system are made to polarize. A polarized society cannot move against the those who have set their roots deep within the power structure to continue sapping resources vital to healthy economic and social growth. Right wing, left wing; does not matter which you are, without the other wing you just fly in circles, or not at all.
I agree with everything you guys are saying, but reason is seldom the most audible voice. For that trait, we are at no unique point in history.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 04:27 |
Politics and Religion are a dubious mix, any politician spouting the Bible would be viewed with suspicion in this country, though it is acceptable for them to be seen attending Church on Sunday morning or various Religious Festivals.
Right wingers are religious hypocrites with their "every man for himself monopoly / capitalism" politics - the so-called Left wing Socialists are more in tune with TRUE religious doctrines, where Governments should help and protect the weak and unfortunate and benefit society as a whole - If things seem bad now, voting back in right wing political parties to Government with their selfish policies protecting the well off minorities will be the dawn of a meaner, darker age to come.... 
Edited by mystic fred - October 30 2008 at 04:31
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 Prog Archives Tour Van
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67465
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 04:48 |
BroSpence wrote:
4. Even in the case of a government set up to follow the laws of the
religion, those in the government still determine the law of the land
on the people, rather than God.
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This is because the law needs to be the same for everyone, and not
everyone recognizes the law of God or people may have differing views
about it. The problem is that everyone who doesn't want to end up in
jail must not only follow the law of God (or moral law) but also the
laws determined by the government even if those laws differ from or
even contradict with the law of God. This is why I believe it would be better if there were no states at all and everyone could freely follow the laws they consider right.
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 07:36 |
I do not think that religion should be the basis of any modern government. I also dislike the heavily polarised right/left politics. I'd probably put my self more in the conservative camp than labour in the uk but there are good and bad sides to both. The problem with socialism is, as Orwell put it: "everyone is equal but some are more equal than others".
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: October 30 2008 at 08:13 |
Somebody's had a little too much to think.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Posted: October 31 2008 at 00:10 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Somebody's had a little too much to think. |
HAHA! Good one.
Vompatti wrote:
BroSpence wrote:
4. Even in the case of a government set up to follow the laws of the
religion, those in the government still determine the law of the land
on the people, rather than God.
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...This is why I believe it would be better if there were no states at all and everyone could freely follow the laws they consider right.
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An anarchist society is usually frowned upon by many people, especially those in the government as they would be out of a job. The common reason behind it being that if there is no government, there are no laws, and anyone can do whatever they want. Of course the latter part of that saying is always in reference to the worst type of situations such as, murder/assault, stealing, and any other immoral activity. I agree with you in part because I don't think as many people would go nuts in that kind of set-up, but sure there are people out there that want to do bad things, but they also do those bad things when there is government.
There are people that may do the bad things (when they haven't before) because they are no longer governed by the idea that they will be punished for doing whatever things those may be. Sure that is also a possibility. I'm pretty confident that the majority of people on this planet know the difference between common "wrong" and "right". I'm quite sure that that is part of our nature. It is not born from going to church or being involved in a religion, but from our environment. Environment and human nature are inseparable in my mind.
I'm not advocating an anarchist society by any means, but I don't think things would be nearly as chaotic as it is often believed. To be more clear, just because there would be no central body does not mean there would not be law.
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fusionfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2007
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 1317
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 07:40 |
Interesting debate!I will be a leftist till my last breath.That said,I'm not sectarian:right versus left seems to be a cliché when one sees most european left wing governments settling Market based right wing policies
alongside with authoritarian means(phonetapping when Francois Miterrand was in power) and global economic crisis destroying many people's lives whatever right or left.Actually the difference is made between militants from both sides depending on their wages,families,education...For me religion has nothing to do with politics since it always weakens dreams of equality and policies to reach this goal.Moreover religious authorities often are corrupted and scornful towards the poor.Too bad we keep electing people who don't respect us!I hope Obama will do a great job in America and I'm looking forward to have a good president in 2012:1 and a half year of Nicolas Sarkozy is too much!
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from
crimson king
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 11:47 |
Politics should be separate from Religion should be separate from Law should be separate from Economics - the four are not mutually compatible. When one dictates the doctrine of the other then real anarchy ensues. An anarchy where the philosophy of a select few decides policy regardless of the needs or desires of the majority. Voting for a party by placing an {X} on a ballot sheet is not granting a waiver to the winning team to do whatever they please, it does not mean we agree with every policy within their manifesto or with every decision they will make in the future, but we disagree less with them than with the other lot. No Political party ever gains power by a true numerical majority, and even if they did, it would still mean that a significant proportion of the population was against them. So when a vocal and powerful minority faction within a party holds sway then they are even further removed from what the real majority actually wants.
Socialism has little to do with politics, but is more a precept of being human: most of the world's religions are based upon socialistic ideals and principles, even if the doctrine of those religions is as far removed from practical Socialism as you can possibly get. There is nothing to prevent a truly right-wing government from having socialist policies anymore than a left-wing government can have a capitalist policies; people with left-wing views can be religious, right-wingers can be atheists, Capitalism is not the diametric opposite of Socialism any more than to be irreligious means you are also amoral.
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What?
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fusionfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2007
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 1317
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 12:38 |
Well said Dean!I'm always looking forward to stay true to my ideas:peace,freedom,understanding,a real social policy and a Market which doesn't dominate politics.But it's so hard and I'm most of the time sceptical towards what's going on now:save the banks instead of saving people?There is something wrong in the world!
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from
crimson king
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32566
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Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:43 |
Romans chapter 13, verses 1-7:
1Everyone must submit
himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except
that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been
established by God. 2Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has
instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For
rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then
do what is right and he will commend you. 4For
he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for
he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent
of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore,
it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give
everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue,
then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.Careful not to rip that passage out of context.
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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Posted: November 02 2008 at 02:46 |
Epignosis wrote:
Romans chapter 13, verses 1-7:
1Everyone must submit
himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except
that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been
established by God. 2Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has
instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For
rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then
do what is right and he will commend you. 4For
he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for
he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent
of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore,
it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give
everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue,
then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Careful not to rip that passage out of context. 
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Bush really was chosen to be Prez, by the big man.
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