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deafmoon View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Classical Music influence Prog?
    Posted: August 29 2009 at 07:43

Strange as it may seem, I believe so. If we examine: the long forms, changing sections, form structure of establishing themes, solos, theme illusion and recapitulation and reiteration of theme; they all seem to be inherent in the very best that prog has to offer. Look at Close To The Edge, Gates Of Delirium, Karn Evil 9, Dogs, Suppers Ready, The Colony Of Slippermen, Thick as A Brick. All of them have the many qualities of classical music that was created by the masters.

For an easy relaxing listen to exemplify my point; listen to Schubert's Unifinished Symphony. It's only two movements and the theme is stated up front in the melody early on and weaved in and out of the total 25 minutes combined of the two movements. The standard form of symphonic style was four movements, so because Franz Schubert only wrote the two movements before he died at 31 years old; it was simply titled Unfinished.
Some actually suspect it wrote only the two sections intentionally; but I disagree, as the recapitulation and reiteration of the theme in the first movemnt is eluded too, but never resurfaces with power, as was Schubert's style, in the last movement.
 
What say you on this topic of classical music and it's influence on classic prog?
 
PS - If you haven't ever listened to classical music, you owe it to yourself to at least check out Beethoven's 5th Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, Mozart's 40th, Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring and Dvoraks New World Symphony. There are many many other fine works that you can dig into for yourself. Afterall, to know where Prog is going you should know where it came from. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 08:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 11:22
Yes.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:03
Does the Pope sh*t in the woods?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:19
Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

Strange as it may seem, I believe so. If we examine: the long forms, changing sections, form structure of establishing themes, solos, theme illusion and recapitulation and reiteration of theme; they all seem to be inherent in the very best that prog has to offer. Look at Close To The Edge, Gates Of Delirium, Karn Evil 9, Dogs, Suppers Ready, The Colony Of Slippermen, Thick as A Brick. All of them have the many qualities of classical music that was created by the masters.

For an easy relaxing listen to exemplify my point; listen to Schubert's Unifinished Symphony. It's only two movements and the theme is stated up front in the melody early on and weaved in and out of the total 25 minutes combined of the two movements. The standard form of symphonic style was four movements, so because Franz Schubert only wrote the two movements before he died at 31 years old; it was simply titled Unfinished.
Some actually suspect it wrote only the two sections intentionally; but I disagree, as the recapitulation and reiteration of the theme in the first movemnt is eluded too, but never resurfaces with power, as was Schubert's style, in the last movement.
 
What say you on this topic of classical music and it's influence on classic prog?
 
PS - If you haven't ever listened to classical music, you owe it to yourself to at least check out Beethoven's 5th Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, Mozart's 40th, Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring and Dvoraks New World Symphony. There are many many other fine works that you can dig into for yourself. Afterall, to know where Prog is going you should know where it came from. 
The Short answer to this is yes. I can think of quite a few progressive pieces that are  easily linked to classical music from the top of my head. Five bridges suite, and Pictures at an exhibition immediately come to mind. However I think that you can go further, that mordern classical composers such as Stravinsky, Reich and Stockhausen had a more immediate affect on the likes of Zappa, Eno, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk, Can etc 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:27
What I'd find more interesting (as the answer to the original question is pretty obvious) would be to discuss which classical composers had (or may have had) an influence on which particular band.

For example, I'd imagine that Genesis were quite influenced by British composers such as Vaughan Williams, Delius, Bax, and also by French ones like Debussy, Ravel. (I think I saw Tony name-drop a few composers in some interview... there were a few Russian ones as well IIRC, probably Tchaikovsky and / or Rachmaninov, or Prokofjev)

Mike Oldfield was very strongly influenced by Sibelius and also by the "minimalists" Steve Reich, Philip Glass and Terry Riley. He also liked (and probably still likes!) Stravinski, Vaughan Williams, Rodrigo, Holst, Delius and Debussy.

etc...


Edited by splyu - August 29 2009 at 12:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:32
Originally posted by progmetalhead progmetalhead wrote:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp#definition
 
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I was one of the collaborators on this Wikipedia page Smile
 
It's still a mess, but we all agreed over there that classical music is at the very foundation of prog. Prog only strayed away form it in newer genres as time went by. I'd even say that there are genres covered by PA that have a thinner link to vintage prog than classical music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 12:35
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Does the Pope sh*t in the woods?
 
 
My thoughts exactly...there are lots of resources here to learn about prog. Feel free to avail yourself of the time people have spent compiling them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 13:53
Classical music influenced
 
Everything
 
In terms of western music of course.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 13:56
I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.
 
Sure there are one or two bands who took direct influence from classical composers for some of their music, and a number of bands who were in turn influenced by those bands, but the majority of Prog bands (from all subgenres) have little or no Classical Music influence at all.
 
In this I do not mean the use of melotron and string synths to emulate an orchestral sound, or the expansion of simple 12 & 16 bar "pop" song format into extended forms where the middle 8 becomes a succession of longer interludes and diversions (practically little more than extended jams), but where the structure and complexity of the music follows techniques that would instantly be recognisable as "classical music" if arranged for an orchestra or ensemble instead of a what is essentially still a "beat-combo". This excludes all those Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Plays The Hits Of... type albums, which are merely rock songs played by an orchestra and still cannot be called Classical Music.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 15:16
No, classical music didn't influence prog. But you can be sure it was at least one of the catalysts for the beginnings. It's hard not to believe so if you listen to classical music with any regularity. And not in the fact (as was previously mentioned) that prog bands cover or snip classical references. But in the mood and ability to challenge the mind with the music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 19:30
This certainly ain't as clear cut as it first appears methinks. Although both Jon Lord and Keith Emerson have scored symphonic works exploiting orchestral resources (i.e the classically trained penguins) neither had formal training in the discipline.

Most of the prog I have heard that cites inspiration from classical music is restricted to:

textural (using orchestral instruments or impersonating same via synths)
quotation (assimilating themes and melodies out-with their context)
pastiche (faux fugues, rondos, boleros etc but using rock vocabulary)

If classical music were to be a significant influence on prog, much of the core pulse of the latter would require to be compromised, leaving us with a critter that we might not recognise as 'rawk' in any of its current guises.

You could also make a convincing argument that the opposite is more prevalent i.e. rock music could be deemed to be a significant influence on the minimalist composers of 'systems music' (Glass, Reich, Riley, La Monte Young)

Time for my nap now.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:13
Are you serious?  I thought classical music was acknowledged as being one of the main influences on prog?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.


Depends on what "Prog" and what "Classical Music" we're talking about, methinks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.


Depends on what "Prog" and what "Classical Music" we're talking about, methinks.
RIO/Avant Garde Prog and 20th Century/Contempory of course Tongue
 
The rest are pastiche or faux-classical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.


Depends on what "Prog" and what "Classical Music" we're talking about, methinks.
RIO/Avant Garde Prog and 20th Century/Contempory of course Tongue
 
The rest are pastiche or faux-classical.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:53
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm going to stick my neck out and say "No" - I don't believe Prog is anywhere near as influenced by Classical Music as most people think it is, want it to be, or wish it was.


Depends on what "Prog" and what "Classical Music" we're talking about, methinks.
RIO/Avant Garde Prog and 20th Century/Contempory of course Tongue
 
The rest are pastiche or faux-classical.


Star
...even then I think you have to be both careful and selective in what you consider to be classical influenced or merely derivative - not all Avant Garde Prog is directly influenced by Contemporary Classical music (there - I can spell Contemporary when I try).
 
 
...and many purists and ClassicFM listeners would not regard Contemporary as being "Classical Music"


Edited by Dean - August 29 2009 at 20:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 20:58
Sure - I'm basically with you by the way - an influence from classical music, while not non-existent, is overstated, I think in most progressive outfits.  Certainly in most of the "prog" I enjoy, jazz is the overwhelming influence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2009 at 21:03

Yes, of course Prog is influenced by Classical.  So many prog artists have had classical training, and there are significant differences in the prog approach to rock than in the blues approach - structure, tonality, etc.   This is not to say that Classical is the only influence, though.  Rock, at its core, is blues, and we see plenty of that in Prog, notably in Heavy-Prog and Proto-Prog bands.  There is also a Jazz influence, and a Raga influence, and a Celtic influence, etc. as well.  At the same time, let's acknowledge that Classical is a broad category.  Beethoven is not the same as Stravinsky.  To run down specific instances of influence would be a matter of identifying the influences of individual musicians in Prog.  Is the Classical influence seen everywhere?  Probably not.  Is it seen in many prominent artists?  Most certainly.

The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2009 at 04:07
If you can hear classical influences in prog, that doesn't mean the composers used them. We are all using the 12 note western music system, mostly with themes in one key. The mathmetics show us a lot of possible chordprogressions and they may re-occur in a different musical genre. The symphonic sound can be explained as an urge for the musician to fill up the part of high pitch spectrum of the music, which was kind of empty when they played bluess. What I just want to say is that prog a very different mindset, not like classical music. Good prog is about breaking the rules and good classical music is about using the rules in a nice way. Connection isn't alway correlation.
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